Immigration: Gettin hot in here?

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

Check the Immigration & Nationality laws. It is not a crime. It's like going to an event without a ticket. You get turned-away. You can't get in, without a ticket. In this case, they don't have a Passport or Non-immigrant visa so, they are turned away. It is not a jail or prison offense. If, that illegal is in possesion of illegal drugs, guns or the like. Then, a crime has been comitted.
One reason I know this is, the rancher I work for, is a retired U.S. Border Patrol: Senior Patrol Agent. One of my customers is an 'active' Border Patrol agent. I don't know how else i can convince you. Check what i've said out.


Chuck

Ok, I believe you. Its not a crime. Going to an event you don't have a ticket for seems like a good analogy to me. You get turned away.
I guess my point is this: there is an illegal immigration problem in the US. The manifestations of this problem cover a wide range from national security to socio-economic. I think national security should have a priority over the other areas. Yes, undocumented workers are a very cheap source of labor. IMO, cheap labor should not trump national security. The president is supporting an amnesty program that I believe will not only help our current problems, but make them worse. Regardless of what he choses to call the program, it is amnesty.

__________________________________________

A lot of folks don't seem to understand the 'non-crime' aspect.
...and I whole-heartedly agree with you on every point. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Mexico, needs to 'fix' their country. It is not up to us. That's what Mexico thinks we should do, though. So far, it's working for them! We are going to pay the price, in the long run. With over 12-million illegals in this country... that's a problem.


Chuck

[skreamer 1]

No, you didn't answer the question. When you work outside the US are you doing so legally? Do you have a work visa? The fact that you get paid in the US doesn't mean you are being legally employed. And since you are paid in the US does this mean you don't pay any tax in the guest country? Or is your mere presence enough of a contribution to their economy?

Should they fine the shit out of all American dropzones that hire packers who don't have green cards?

[Trent 0]

Quote

The plan the president is supporting will grant legal status (temporarily) to people who are already here illegally.

I hadn't read it that way... I took his quote about not supporting amnesty to mean that he would not push a bill that did what you are saying. If he does support it, it will be another point on which I do NOT agree with GWB.

Quote

IMO - I think we should start a clock and say: if you are here illegally, you will not get amnesty, but we will give you 30 days (or however long is a resonable time frame) to get legal. After that, we will find you and it will be nearly impossible for you to come back after we throw you out.

I will add that to my evil plan to stop illegal immigration. Good idea... and that was kinda what I thought would happen anyway. Amnesty is NOT okay.

Quote

We are basically in agreement.

Holy shit... this has been happening a lot lately in SC. What the hell is going on?

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

Quote

No, you didn't answer the question. When you work outside the US are you doing so legally? Do you have a work visa? The fact that you get paid in the US doesn't mean you are being legally employed. And since you are paid in the US does this mean you don't pay any tax in the guest country? Or is your mere presence enough of a contribution to their economy?

My presence is a HUGE boon to their economy... are you kidding? I buy food, beer, beer, and t-shirts. But seriously folks, the only time I've been paid to work outside of the US is in Mexico. They've taken care of getting my work permit and paying the taxes for me. Funny... kinda reverse of what's happening in the US, huh? So... still not a "gotcha"!

Quote

Should they fine the shit out of all American dropzones that hire packers who don't have green cards?

No, but they should... and have fined people who are paying people without a work visa. I've known several skydiver coaches and packers to get booted from the US for this exact reason.

Sure it sucks that it'd apply to skydivers, but it has to be fair across the board. The guest worker program that I'm thinking of would make it easier for them to come work legally too.

Oh, hello again!

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Quote

Will you get a work visa before accepting paid work as a coach/organizer at boogies around the world?

I'm paid in the US. Even besides that point... I leave any countries I visit for boogies without putting a strain on their social services AND I carry insurance to cover any medical emergencies AND I have a return ticket, a passport, and invitations to enter the country. So... nice try to make it relevant on a personal level, but it falls flat.

So if US employers invited Mexicans with Mexican passports here to work in the US but arranged for them to be paid in Mexico, that would be OK without any kind of US work permit?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Trent 0]

Didn't read my other post, didja? Thaaat's what I thought.

Oh, hello again!

[deeter 0]

Shit. Now posting under MY name...


I've known several skydiver coaches and packers to get booted from the US for this exact reason.


***

Ditto.

I still say:

Get your ASS down to INS and do it right. Or: Get OUT.

Periord.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

doing jobs that Americans will not do

So you think. In reality, the jobs are lost to those that will work for less and less......

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bobsled92 0]

Quote

Quote

doing jobs that Americans will not do

So you think. In reality, the jobs are lost to those that will work for less and less......

Skilled labor here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania now has Illegal Imigrants (from Mexico) doing the stone facing on new houses (a company here supplies the majority of this stone). This is far from being a minimum wage job. It pays the same as any Mason's position.
(the farms/orchards here also bring up illegals= not just So. Cal.) Used to be done by the Mennonites (Amish still tend to their own harvest)

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Skilled labor here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania now has Illegal Imigrants (from Mexico) doing the stone facing on new houses

There are lots of communities all over the US, even up north far from the border, where many of the laborers working for landscaping companies are Mexican. Hard to tell just from looking at them who are the legals and who are the illegals. I'd imagine that probably applies to Mexican stone masons, too.

[rasmack 0]

Seeing this as a European is a bit funny. I don't really have an opinion on the entire crime/no-crime discussion, as I suppose this is all about providing the relevant agencies with jurisdiction and tools to fight illegal immigration.

Regarding the rest of this thing. Checking for work permits etc. it is old news on this side of the pond. You have no idea how open your borders seem to us. If I went to the US, fell in love and got married I can assure you that me and my wife would not be allowed to live together in Denmark as our "connection" with the US would be bigger than our connection to Denmark, and that is just how we treat citizens...

I guess what I am saying is that I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Coming to you live from Fortress Europe.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Didn't read my other post, didja? Thaaat's what I thought.

I did but it was so weasel-worded I thought I'd ask directly. Didn't answer my question, did you?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[altichick 1]

Quote

It IS hard to enter the US legally if they think looking for a job and looking to stay. Ask some folks that are trying to do things the right way now and see if it's a walk in the park.

A lot of illegals cross the border several times a year to go home to their families. Guest worker programs would make that legal for them to do, provide us with labor that we need, and make sure that these guys are paying taxes for the services they get while here. If employers were punished for hiring illegally, a guest worker program could prevent people from being hired once their work visa is expired. They'd have to go home to renew. It could work.

Sounds like a great idea... anything has to be better than the current system... trying to get a US work visa for seasonal non-professional job is such a long slow process that by the time you get anywhere the season has finished anyway

For example... DZ doesn't know how many of it's non-local regulars are coming back for the summer until just before the start of the season, they advertise the unfilled positions, theres little response from US workers - those that live close enough are already working there, not many people in other parts of the US want to move for a (relatively) low paid seasonal job when they could get the same work locally.

There are overseas workers who could fill the positions and would be happy to relocate for a temporary seasonal job and don't plan on staying permanently... but if it takes 4 months+ and 100's of $ so do it legally it's pointless even trying.

There is a limited number of seasonal work visas available, they start issuing them in November and usually the quota has been reached by the spring.

Illegal workers can't pay taxes without it raising the fact that they are working illegally and getting themselves and their employers into shit. It's no wonder so many people resort to illegal working / illegal employment when the government makes it so damn hard to do it by the book!

[/rant]

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

It IS hard to enter the US legally if they think looking for a job and looking to stay. Ask some folks that are trying to do things the right way now and see if it's a walk in the park.

A lot of illegals cross the border several times a year to go home to their families. Guest worker programs would make that legal for them to do, provide us with labor that we need, and make sure that these guys are paying taxes for the services they get while here. If employers were punished for hiring illegally, a guest worker program could prevent people from being hired once their work visa is expired. They'd have to go home to renew. It could work.

Sounds like a great idea... anything has to be better than the current system... trying to get a US work visa for seasonal non-professional job is such a long slow process that by the time you get anywhere the season has finished anyway

For example... DZ doesn't know how many of it's non-local regulars are coming back for the summer until just before the start of the season, they advertise the unfilled positions, theres little response from US workers - those that live close enough are already working there, not many people in other parts of the US want to move for a (relatively) low paid seasonal job when they could get the same work locally.

There are overseas workers who could fill the positions and would be happy to relocate for a temporary seasonal job and don't plan on staying permanently... but if it takes 4 months+ and 100's of $ so do it legally it's pointless even trying.

There is a limited number of seasonal work visas available, they start issuing them in November and usually the quota has been reached by the spring.

Illegal workers can't pay taxes without it raising the fact that they are working illegally and getting themselves and their employers into shit. It's no wonder so many people resort to illegal working / illegal employment when the government makes it so damn hard to do it by the book!

[/rant]

__________________________________________

If it isn't complicated, our politicians don't understand it! I think, it's the old story... if, you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance... baffle 'em with bull-shit.


Chuck

[Trent 0]

Quote

I did but it was so weasel-worded I thought I'd ask directly.

Now if THAT isn't the pot calling the kettle black.... nothing is!! Good laugh, good laugh.

Quote

Didn't answer my question, did you?

Oooohh, it gets even BETTER!!! *holding sides to show just how funny that post was*

Did you really want an answer to the question? I'm sorry, I thought it was YET ANOTHER sneaky little one-line shot. Surely, you can understand how I might have confused that... coming from you.

But anyway... *sigh*... Since you've asked about legal Mexican visitors being paid in Mexico for jobs here in the US (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, because you THOUGHT that I was being sneaky NOT because that actually happens).... Yeah, that's not okay. Their employer needs to get their permits in order and pay their taxes. But from a security standpoint... at least we'd know they were here since they came in legally... and that's a step in the right direction.

Oh, hello again!

[bobsled92 0]

Quote

Quote

Skilled labor here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania now has Illegal Imigrants (from Mexico) doing the stone facing on new houses

There are lots of communities all over the US, even up north far from the border, where many of the laborers working for landscaping companies are Mexican. Hard to tell just from looking at them who are the legals and who are the illegals. I'd imagine that probably applies to Mexican stone masons, too.

I honestly had no idea. A foreman at the site told me when they would get worried when ever I showed up at the work site with my I.D. badge on . He said they thought I was INS and had to convince them I was really just a a Telco employee checking sites for new lines to be placed. (p.s. 213 Mexican In-laws of mine= all 2nd gen & legal. they get p.o.'d about illegals though...strange, eh?)

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

Completely open borders where anyone can come and go as they please?

Yep. Exactly that. All over the world.

And everyone pays taxes to the country in which the money was earned.

Easy.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[jeiber 0]

Quote

And everyone pays taxes to the country in which the money was earned.

Yeah, that'll be easy to enforce!

Ya know, let's just do away with taxes altogether. From now on, it's on the honor system. Everyone just mail a check to the IRS on the 15th, and pay them whatever you think is fair.

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Quote

And everyone pays taxes to the country in which the money was earned.

Yeah, that'll be easy to enforce!

One way to enforce it might be through mandatory payroll deductions (like W-2 workers in the US). Pre-weight the deduction formula on the high side, to force the worker to file a return to obtain a refund for deductions, etc.

[popsjumper 2]

Question:
Is there a limit, or a quota if you will, on the number of immigrants allowed into the country yearly?

If so, do we fill that limit/quota every year?

If so, the others entering illegally have made a decision to violate U.S. immigration laws and should be deported...period.

Do it legally or do it illegally and pay the price.

I think the U.S. could hire enough Border Patrol to seal off leaky border-crossing points and finance it with monies withheld from monetary aid provided to offending countires. I think we could make a concerted effort to round up and deport the illegals that are already here by using the same monies.

Illegals in jail/prison for committing crimes? Use the same monies to pay for their upkeep and build new holding facilities.

That would do several things - provide new jobs for Americans, stop the illegal immigration leaks, provide incentives for offending countries to do something about the problem themselves...among other things.
Yeah, it would piss off the offending country at first but if you stick to your guns, it becomes the way things are.

I am TOTALLY against amnesty.
I am TOTALLY against providing health, education and other benefits to illegals.
I support penalizing those who employ illegals.
I support providing benefits to legal immigrants.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,991]

>I think the U.S. could hire enough Border Patrol to seal off
>leaky border-crossing points and finance it with monies withheld
>from monetary aid provided to offending countires.

Result - offending country's economy tanks further. Average wage goes down to $1 a day. Ten times as many immigrants stream across the border, so that in one day in the US they can make what would take them two months to earn in their country. They prefer getting caught to watching their families starve, and they have nothing to lose.

In the EU, they had the same problem with Spaniards and Portugese crossing the border to work in France. Their answer? Aid to Spain and Portugal narrowed the wage gap, and the immigration problem disappeared.

[RhondaLea 4]

Here's a topical article from today's Christian Science Monitor:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0329/p01s03-woam.html

South of the border, fence is no deterrent

Would-be migrants say nothing will stop them from working in US.


ALTAR, MEXICO – They stream in. Today, the same as yesterday. The same as the day before. Backpacks are stuffed with bottled water, soap, chips, maybe an icon of the Virgin of Guadalupe. They wear sweaters and wool hats for the cold desert nights.

It often starts here, in Altar, 60 miles south of the Arizona border, at one of the largest staging points for would-be migrants attempting to cross into the US illegally. The travelers arrive from all over Mexico, Central America, even as far away as Colombia, and Brazil.

They are going to "El Norte." They tell you that, straight out. And if they don't cross this time, they will simply try again.

While debate in the US continues over immigration reform policy, here, on the south side of the border, there seems to be consensus that enforcement measures will deter almost no one. "Walls and lights and sensors and police fill our heads," says Dagoberto Martinez, "...but they don't make us turn back."

(continued...)

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[misaltas 0]

Quote

South of the border, fence is no deterrent

Exactly.

As long as there are employers willing to hire illegals, there will be illegals. As long as the gov't doesn't hold employers accountable, we deserve the illegal immigration problem.

You cannot hold back water.

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

Is there a limit, or a quota if you will, on the number of immigrants allowed into the country yearly?

If so, do we fill that limit/quota every year?

There are different types of Visas, but the H1 Visa allows for foreigners to work and reside temporarily in the US while performing activities for which they have "special abilities". Quotas were raised in the late 90's I believe by congress, to answer the demand of the dotcoms. 2 years ago, it was brought back to it's old lower level. Quota is usually filled within 8 hours of the opening period. Which, in the particular case of the industry in which I work, translated into major outsourcing to foreign countries such as Australia, NZ, and some of the EU countries, since talent could not legally be "brought" into the US.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Guest]

Mexican illegals vs. American voters
By Tony Blankley
March 29, 2006


It is lucky America has more than two centuries of mostly calm experience with self-government. We are going to need to fall back on that invaluable patrimony if the immigration debate continues as it has started this season. The Senate is attempting to legislate into the teeth of the will of the American public. The Senate Judiciary Committeemen — and probably a majority of the Senate — are convinced that they know that the American people don't know what is best for them.
National polling data could not be more emphatic — and has been so for decades. Gallup Poll (March 27) finds 80 percent of the public wants the federal government to get tougher on illegal immigration. A Quinnipiac University Poll (March 3) finds 62 percent oppose making it easier for illegals to become citizens (72 percent in that poll don't even want illegals to be permitted to have driver's licenses). Time Magazine's recent poll (Jan. 24-26) found 75 percent favor "major penalties" on employers of illegals, 70 percent believe illegals increase the likelihood of terrorism and 57 percent would use military force at the Mexican-American border.
An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll (March 10-13) found 59 percent opposing a guest-worker proposal, and 71 percent would more likely vote for a congressional candidate who would tighten immigration controls.
An IQ Research poll (March 10) found 92 percent saying that securing the U.S. border should be a top priority of the White House and Congress.
Yet, according to a National Journal survey of Congress, 73 percent of Republican and 77 percent of Democratic congressmen and senators say they would support guest-worker legislation.
I commend to all those presumptuous senators and congressmen the sardonic and wise words of Edmund Burke in his 1792 letter to Sir Hercules Langrishe: "No man will assert seriously, that when people are of a turbulent spirit, the best way to keep them in order is to furnish them with something substantial to complain of." The senators should remember that they are American senators, not Roman proconsuls. Nor is the chairman of the Judiciary Committee some latter-day Praetor Maximus.
But if they would be dictators, it would be nice if they could at least be wise (until such time as the people can electorally forcefully project with a violent pedal thrust their regrettable backsides out of town). It was gut-wrenching (which in my case is a substantial event) to watch the senators prattle on in their idle ignorance concerning the manifold economic benefits that will accrue to the body politic if we can just cram a few million more uneducated illegals into the country. ( I guess ignorance loves company.) Beyond the Senate last week, in a remarkable example of intellectual integrity (in the face of the editorial positions of their newspapers) the chief economic columnists for the New York Times and The Washington Post — Paul Krugman and Robert Samuelson, respectively — laid out the sad facts regarding the economics of the matter. Senators, congressmen and Mr. President, please take note.
Regarding the Senate's and the president's guest-worker proposals, The Post's Robert Samuelson writes: "Gosh, they're all bad ideas ... We'd be importing poverty. This isn't because these immigrants aren't hardworking, many are. Nor is it because they don't assimilate, many do. But they generally don't go home, assimilation is slow and the ranks of the poor are constantly replenished ... [It] is a conscious policy of creating poverty in the United States while relieving it in Mexico ... The most lunatic notion is that admitting more poor Latino workers would ease the labor market strains of retiring baby boomers ? Far from softening the social problems of an aging society, more poor immigrants might aggravate them by pitting older retirees against younger Hispanics for limited government benefits ... [Moreover], it's a myth that the U.S. economy 'needs' more poor immigrants.
"The illegal immigrants already here represent only about 4.9 percent of the labor force." (For all Mr. Samuelson's supporting statistics, see his Washington Post column of March 22, from which this is taken.) Likewise, a few days later, the very liberal and often partisan Paul Krugman of the New York Times courageously wrote : "Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the [government] benefits they receive. As the Swiss writer Max Frisch wrote about his own country's experience with immigration, 'We wanted a labor force, but human beings came.' " Mr. Krugman also observed — citing a leading Harvard study — "that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration. That's why it's intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants 'do jobs that Americans will not do.' The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays — and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants." Thusly do the two leading economic writers for the nation's two leading liberal newspapers summarily debunk the economic underpinning of the president's and the Senate's immigration proposals.
Under such circumstances, advocates of guest-worker/amnesty bills will find it frustratingly hard to defend their arrogant plans by their preferred tactic of slandering those who disagree with them as racist, nativist and xenophobic.
When the slandered ones include not only The Washington Post and the New York Times, but about 70 percent of the public, it is not only bad manners, but bad politics.
The public demand to protect our borders will triumph sooner or later. And, the more brazen the opposing politicians, the sooner will come the triumph.
So legislate on, you proud and foolish senators — and hasten your political demise.

All emphasis mine.

mh

.