JohnnyD 0
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Interesting point. Maybe one of the shysters will have some knowledge of this, but it begs the question: If your citizenship was resultant of the comission of a crime, is the citizenship valid? I assume there is already a legal precedent to answer the question. Anyone?
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Illegally entering the U.S. for the purpose of living and/or working here is not a felony or a mis-demeanor. It is a violation of the Immigration and Nationality laws of this country. There is no jail or prison sentence involved. Illegals are 'detained' until transportation returns them to their native country. After 3-apprehensions, deportation procedings are started. They are not arrested, they are 'apprehended'. The job of the Border Patrol is to 'stop' them from going any further. In essence, they really have not comitted a 'crime'.
Chuck
JohnnyD 0
Quote
Interesting point. Maybe one of the shysters will have some knowledge of this, but it begs the question: If your citizenship was resultant of the comission of a crime, is the citizenship valid? I assume there is already a legal precedent to answer the question. Anyone?
____________________________________
Illegally entering the U.S. for the purpose of living and/or working here is not a felony or a mis-demeanor. It is a violation of the Immigration and Nationality laws of this country. There is no jail or prison sentence involved. Illegals are 'detained' until transportation returns them to their native country. After 3-apprehensions, deportation procedings are started. They are not arrested, they are 'apprehended'. The job of the Border Patrol is to 'stop' them from going any further. In essence, they really have not comitted a 'crime'.
Chuck
I believe it is a crime, punishable by removal from the country. I'll agree that it is not part of our penal code, but it is part of our legal structure and breaking laws involve consequences (or should). Not enforcing the consequences will not ensure that the law will not be broken. In fact, I believe it invites the law to be broken.
QuoteQuote
Interesting point. Maybe one of the shysters will have some knowledge of this, but it begs the question: If your citizenship was resultant of the comission of a crime, is the citizenship valid? I assume there is already a legal precedent to answer the question. Anyone?
____________________________________
Illegally entering the U.S. for the purpose of living and/or working here is not a felony or a mis-demeanor. It is a violation of the Immigration and Nationality laws of this country. There is no jail or prison sentence involved. Illegals are 'detained' until transportation returns them to their native country. After 3-apprehensions, deportation procedings are started. They are not arrested, they are 'apprehended'. The job of the Border Patrol is to 'stop' them from going any further. In essence, they really have not comitted a 'crime'.
Chuck
I believe it is a crime, punishable by removal from the country. I'll agree that it is not part of our penal code, but it is part of our legal structure and breaking laws involve consequences (or should). Not enforcing the consequences will not ensure that the law will not be broken. In fact, I believe it invites the law to be broken.
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Check the Immigration & Nationality laws. It is not a crime. It's like going to an event without a ticket. You get turned-away. You can't get in, without a ticket. In this case, they don't have a Passport or Non-immigrant visa so, they are turned away. It is not a jail or prison offense. If, that illegal is in possesion of illegal drugs, guns or the like. Then, a crime has been comitted.
One reason I know this is, the rancher I work for, is a retired U.S. Border Patrol: Senior Patrol Agent. One of my customers is an 'active' Border Patrol agent. I don't know how else i can convince you. Check what i've said out.
Chuck
Trent 0
QuoteWill you get a work visa before accepting paid work as a coach/organizer at boogies around the world?
I'm paid in the US. Even besides that point... I leave any countries I visit for boogies without putting a strain on their social services AND I carry insurance to cover any medical emergencies AND I have a return ticket, a passport, and invitations to enter the country. So... nice try to make it relevant on a personal level, but it falls flat.
Oh, hello again!
Trent 0
QuoteWhat would possibly lead you to believe that all the people who have come here illegally will magically stop breaking immigration laws if we give them a free pass for past transgressions?
I'm NOT saying that, nor do I interpret Bush's statements to mean that. Where are you getting this? A guest worker program that does NOT grant permanent residency is what I'd like to see.
QuoteThe people who broke the law, risked their lives, and invested their life savings to get into america are not just going to pack up and leave because some politician in Washington DC who has never even been to the border thinks it would be just swell if we could suspend reality and make that happen. We can not say its ok to break the law and then hope that people will just stop doing it out of the sheer goodness of their hearts.
That's the point. Tighten up the borders as best we can. Make TEMPORARY work visas easier to get for people who have family or a reason to go back (This is kinda how getting a visa works now, btw). Let them work, pay taxes, and go home till next time. Now we have more control over who's coming in and out. Combine that with more effective controls over people hiring illegals and you have a step towards a workable, realistic solution. I suppose you'd just have ALL immigration shut down? Sure... that's realistic.
QuoteAlso, how is this guest worker program not amnesty?
Because it isn't giving them permanent residence just because we can't be bothered to get them out.
QuoteIf we say: yes, you are all here illegally and its ok this time, that _is_ amnesty.
That's not what anyone is saying... they'd have to COME IN as a guest worker.
QuoteWhat it also does is grant legal status, which makes it even better here for those people.
It makes it better for them? Like they get free education and healthcare while they're here? Wait, that's happening NOW! The guest worker program would at least get some tax dollars from them. Also, many would make their money and go home at some point. Contrary to what we might think as Americans... not EVERYONE would rather live here. But like I said, that can be determined at the application for the guest worker visa.
QuoteIMO that is taking a situation that is borderline out of control and making it even worse.
Okay, so if not that, what?
Oh, hello again!
JohnnyD 0
Quote
Check the Immigration & Nationality laws. It is not a crime. It's like going to an event without a ticket. You get turned-away. You can't get in, without a ticket. In this case, they don't have a Passport or Non-immigrant visa so, they are turned away. It is not a jail or prison offense. If, that illegal is in possesion of illegal drugs, guns or the like. Then, a crime has been comitted.
One reason I know this is, the rancher I work for, is a retired U.S. Border Patrol: Senior Patrol Agent. One of my customers is an 'active' Border Patrol agent. I don't know how else i can convince you. Check what i've said out.
Chuck
Ok, I believe you. Its not a crime. Going to an event you don't have a ticket for seems like a good analogy to me. You get turned away.
I guess my point is this: there is an illegal immigration problem in the US. The manifestations of this problem cover a wide range from national security to socio-economic. I think national security should have a priority over the other areas. Yes, undocumented workers are a very cheap source of labor. IMO, cheap labor should not trump national security. The president is supporting an amnesty program that I believe will not only help our current problems, but make them worse. Regardless of what he choses to call the program, it is amnesty.
JohnnyD 0
QuoteQuoteWhat would possibly lead you to believe that all the people who have come here illegally will magically stop breaking immigration laws if we give them a free pass for past transgressions?
I'm NOT saying that, nor do I interpret Bush's statements to mean that. Where are you getting this? A guest worker program that does NOT grant permanent residency is what I'd like to see.QuoteThe people who broke the law, risked their lives, and invested their life savings to get into america are not just going to pack up and leave because some politician in Washington DC who has never even been to the border thinks it would be just swell if we could suspend reality and make that happen. We can not say its ok to break the law and then hope that people will just stop doing it out of the sheer goodness of their hearts.
That's the point. Tighten up the borders as best we can. Make TEMPORARY work visas easier to get for people who have family or a reason to go back (This is kinda how getting a visa works now, btw). Let them work, pay taxes, and go home till next time. Now we have more control over who's coming in and out. Combine that with more effective controls over people hiring illegals and you have a step towards a workable, realistic solution. I suppose you'd just have ALL immigration shut down? Sure... that's realistic.QuoteAlso, how is this guest worker program not amnesty?
Because it isn't giving them permanent residence just because we can't be bothered to get them out.QuoteIf we say: yes, you are all here illegally and its ok this time, that _is_ amnesty.
That's not what anyone is saying... they'd have to COME IN as a guest worker.QuoteWhat it also does is grant legal status, which makes it even better here for those people.
It makes it better for them? Like they get free education and healthcare while they're here? Wait, that's happening NOW! The guest worker program would at least get some tax dollars from them. Also, many would make their money and go home at some point. Contrary to what we might think as Americans... not EVERYONE would rather live here. But like I said, that can be determined at the application for the guest worker visa.QuoteIMO that is taking a situation that is borderline out of control and making it even worse.
Okay, so if not that, what?
We are basically in agreement.
The plan the president is supporting will grant legal status (temporarily) to people who are already here illegally. I disagree completely with that idea. It is amnesty. People who are already here illegally are not going to just leave if we make them temporarily legal. Other than that, I am agreeing with you. I think your ideas are solid, common sense ideas that should work.
IMO - I think we should start a clock and say: if you are here illegally, you will not get amnesty, but we will give you 30 days (or however long is a resonable time frame) to get legal. After that, we will find you and it will be nearly impossible for you to come back after we throw you out.
Interesting point. Maybe one of the shysters will have some knowledge of this, but it begs the question: If your citizenship was resultant of the comission of a crime, is the citizenship valid? I assume there is already a legal precedent to answer the question. Anyone?
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