Be afraid of reincarnation!

[Richards 0]

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Yeah, well I figure I'm fucked as far as avoiding hell, so I'm hoping that being a good person will at least get me some air conditioning once in a while!

It seems that the only reason for being good is to avoid hell, and according to that test we are going there anyway. If that is the case and you want to score brownie points should you not then try to appeal to the guy who runs it (satan). If I knew I was going their anyway, and would be at his mercy I'm not sure it would be in my best interest to piss him off by acting in accordance with the rules of his nemesis. If I had to go there than logically I would want to be real evil beforehand so when I got there he would say "Hey, good work pissing off my counterpart. You get some air-conditioning!"

Just my warped logic.

Cheers,

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[SpeedRacer 1]

I think first of all no one is smart enough to know what happens after we die.

Secondly, the idea of hell is that it doesn't happen because God wants to burn unrepentant sinners, & he could let you off the hook if he wanted to. People go to hell by default, all by themselves. So the answer to your point number 1 is that you are correct: There is no purpose of inflicting agony for millenia. It just happens. But there's a way out of it.

3) I've often wondered if unsaved go to mere oblivion, but God knows that our souls were meant for greater things, ie, to be with God in the afterlife. So that the humans inspired to write the Bible were given a vision of fiery torment in order to push people away from oblivion. Many Jews at that time had no idea of any afterlife one way or the other. So since we can't completely imagine what it is to be one with God, perhaps to get us to accept the "carrot" they created a vision of a very frightening "stick."

Speed Racer
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[Richards 0]

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People go to hell by default, all by themselves. So the answer to your point number 1 is that you are correct: There is no purpose of inflicting agony for millenia. It just happens. But there's a way out of it.

But since he is all powerfull he is not limitted to circumstances. He could use his power to make those who were not evil but yet not saved just cease to exist. It's not as though he is merely following orders. He can adjust the rules for some middle ground can't he?

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[SpeedRacer 1]

God is all powerful. But God does not manipulate human beings like puppets on strings. Your free will is left up to you.

The way I see it salvation is like this: Imagine a guy being swept away in a flood. God is like another man standing on the shore tossing a rope out to the guy in the flood. The guy in the water must exercise his free will to deliberately swim over & grab the end of the rope. If he doesn't exercise his free will to do that, he can't blame his drowning on the guy who toseed the rope out to him.

Speed Racer
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[Richards 0]

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God is all powerful. But God does not manipulate human beings like puppets on strings. Your free will is left up to you.

The way I see it salvation is like this: Imagine a guy being swept away in a flood. God is like another man standing on the shore tossing a rope out to the guy in the flood. The guy in the water must exercise his free will to deliberately swim over & grab the end of the rope. If he doesn't exercise his free will to do that, he can't blame his drowning on the guy who toseed the rope out to him.

Understood. My primary concern though is the rational for eternal pain. He does not need to make it eternal. Once peope get there they probably would give anything for a second chance yet he won't give it to them. Can he not merely extinguish their souls. He is not being forced to make hell eternal.

I still have not received a satisfactory answer to scenario 2 in my post. Suicides are not the most evil people in the world by a long shot yet they are the only ones who are cut no slack. Why?

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Since after you die you will no longer be able to experience physical pain (ie heat & flames etc) the torment is actually Separation From God. .
edited to add this clicky link

I don't know what happens to suicides. I believe, however that a person who commits suicide is not so much evil, but mentally ill.

Speed Racer
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[Miranda 0]

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2: Here is a dilemna I have posted on this forum before without receiving an answer. Here is the scenario;

> A man cruelly abuses and molests his daughter during her childhood. According to the bible he can be forgiven and go to heaven for eternal bliss.

>His daughter runs away from home as a pre-teen and ends up in the hands of some cruel pimp who profits from her abuse and degradation as he also strings her along on drugs and beats her occasionally to ensure obedience. According to the church he can be forgiven and receive eternal bliss

> She gets away from him and ends up with some asshole who beats her regularly and cheats on her. He can still be forgiven and get into heaven.

After having had such a horrible life she decides that she can no longer continue to suffer like this and commits suicide. According to the church she will be cut no slack and will burn in unendurable agony for eternity. 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 milleniums after she kills herself she will still be shreiking in horrible agony 24 hours a day begging pittifully for mercy, or even a moments respite from her agony yet there will be no mercy. Her agony will never end and she will continue to endure 24 hour a day agony forever without there ever being an end to her suffering. How can god or the church justify this? With all the horrible crimes that can be forgiven why are suicides ( who were merely weak, and subject to horrible circumstances on earth) the only ones who are cut no slack? Please help me make sense of that?

I do not wish to come across as being disrespectfull to your beliefs or offend you because I am not like that. I do respect people who can commit themselves to a set of values/beleifs even when those beleifs conflict with their immediate needs. I just have a hard time understanding those particular issues I described above.

Awaiting your response,

Richards.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Article 5-The Fifth Commandment

You shall not kill

I. Respect for Human Life

Suicide
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.
Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.


(Emphasis added by me)

Some here might not agree with this, but you asked for an answer--this is what I'm offering.

[Richards 0]

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According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Article 5-The Fifth Commandment

You shall not kill

I. Respect for Human Life

Suicide
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.
Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.


(Emphasis added by me)

Some here might not agree with this, but you asked for an answer--this is what I'm offering.

[pajarito 0]

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Ummmm, by that reasoning, everyone and I mean absolutely EVERYONE who ever existed between Moses getting the commandments and Jesus dying on the cross went to hell.

Not true. For example:

With reference to Abraham:

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"And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Genesis 15:6

With reference to David:

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"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputes not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. I acknowledge my sin unto you, and my iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.
Psalm 32:1-5

With reference to Noah:

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By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
Hebrews 11:7

All of these examples illustrate the denying of self and trust in the Lord. Old Testament Saints and I'm sure very many others were saved by faith. Not evangelical faith but with the covenant that they were under with God at the time.

[pajarito 0]

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Call me twisted, but I think if someone's a good person, that counts for something. I'm funny like that.

Are you a good person? If so, by who's standard?
I reference my link below...again. It would benefit you to continue with it till the end. Don't get bogged down at say Commandment # 5 and quit. There's a lot more to the message. With reference to Charlie, I seriously doubt based on the pattern of his life that any type of conversion experience is possible. However, I'm not the judge. That's up to God. The Bible does say that you are to test the sincerity of people by their works. Charles doesn't look so good to me. But that's just me. What do I know.

[pajarito 0]

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I have *never* been able to get past the point that religion seems to act as a "get out of hell free" card.

There's a difference between a person who is born again of the spirit and a person who calls themselves Christian just because they attend Mass everyday and go to confession. Many people in church are probably going to bust the gates of hell wide open. The "get out of hell free" card really isn't as painless as you make it out to be. Sure, it's a free gift of salvation that you can't earn for yourself, however, acceptance of it requires a radical change in lifestyle. It requires denial of self. It requires battling against almost everything modern society pushes. Especially, these days.

[pajarito 0]

It seems that the only reason for being good is to avoid hell,

[pajarito 0]

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Since after you die you will no longer be able to experience physical pain (ie heat & flames etc) the torment is actually Separation From God. .

It does say this with regard to separation from God:

- Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

It also describes hell like this:
- Lake of fire
- Place of torment
- Gnashing of teeth
- Wicked will be conscious and punishment eternal
- Shame and everlasting contempt
- Everlasting punishment
- Weeping and gnashing of teeth
- Fire unquenchable
- Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish
- Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever
- Tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night

Doesn't sound painless to me.

[Richards 0]

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That should be a top priority concern.

Fair enough

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Does that fact not concern you? It concerned me.

[pajarito 0]

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I am still waiting for an answer to the 2 dilemnas that I stated earlier on.

Working on it.

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Can you do me a favour and explain to me with a logical argument (not merely quoting scripture) why the scenario I described would make sense.

It's a religious question but I"m not allowed to use scripture?

[Richards 0]

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It's a religious question but I"m not allowed to use scripture?

[SpeedRacer 1]

I just realized that I am a hypocrite: I gave people crap for hijacking a thread I started, then I participated in the hijacking of THIS guy's thread.

how many Hail Mary's do I owe for this?

Speed Racer
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[pajarito 0]

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I just realized that I am a hypocrite: I gave people crap for hijacking a thread I started, then I participated in the hijacking of THIS guy's thread.

how many Hail Mary's do I owe for this?

What Commandment is that? You're screwed!

[pajarito 0]

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Eternal agony. What is the purpose of inflicting agony for an eternity.

God is love (1 John 4:8). God is holy (Psalm 99:5). God is also just (Romans 14:10-12). He is infinitely all of these. I think that’s where the reasoning gets lost. We can’t conceive of how offensive our sin is to him just like we can’t fathom the depths of the universe. Therefore, he considers sinful even what you might consider to be not very important (e.g. a “white lie”: 9th Commandment). Because he is holy, he must separate himself from sin. Because he is just, he must punish transgression of the moral law. I think that the absence of his grace is so excruciatingly unimaginable that it will be exactly like what is described in the Bible. God’s grace will be lifted and we will be separate from him and will be at the mercy of Satan who has no mercy. Some just have a hard time realizing the magnitude of the offense and accepting “lake of fire” and “eternal torment” as a comparison. I look at it more as a consequence than a punishment. You’ll bring it to pass on your own accord. You’ve already broken the law. Remember, however, that God is also love. He’s made a way for you to escape the judgment to come.

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If 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 milleniums have passed since a person has committed his crimes what purpose is being served by still keeping his soul conscious for the sole purpose of inflicting horrible agony on him 24 hours a day?

There is no statute of limitations on your transgression of God’s moral law. He knows and remembers every thought that has ever passed through your head. All of which will be addressed on the Day of Judgment. The Bible says that one will remain conscious in hell. I think it’s because you were created with an eternal soul in the image of God. Whatever it turns out to be like, however, the important thing is that you don’t want to be there.

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With all the horrible crimes that can be forgiven why are suicides ( who were merely weak, and subject to horrible circumstances on earth) the only ones who are cut no slack?

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Some people believe that all who commit suicide go immediately to Hell. However, the Bible never says if this is the case. The Bible is silent on this issue. God probably did not address it in black in white for a good reason. If we knew that we would still go to Heaven if we killed ourselves, there would probably be a lot more suicides taking place than there already are. However, if we knew that all who killed themselves were automatically banished to Hell, no matter what their situation, it may be too much for the grief-stricken family and friends to bear. Murder and suicide are not unpardonable sins. The only unforgivable sins are rejecting Christ (Mark 16:16) and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I realize that this may be in conflict with the Catholic Catechism but the Catechism is not the Bible.
The Bible is the final authority.

Suicide

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I do not wish to come across as being disrespectfull to your beliefs or offend you because I am not like that.

No offense taken. These are good questions.

[Richards 0]

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I realize that this may be in conflict with the Catholic Catechism but the Catechism is not the Bible.
The Bible is the final authority.

I may be misunderstanding this. Does this mean they do definitely go to hell? If so Why?

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Channman 2]

Hey, Speedy

Sorry dude, the hijack has become a better read. This thread has a small chance of catching the windcatcher thread.

Pulling out my Sword and giving it a good read so I can catch up to this discussion.

[pajarito 0]

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I may be misunderstanding this. Does this mean they do definitely go to hell? If so Why?

Not because they've committed the sin of breaking the 6th Commandment by committing suicide. Because they've broken the law without their penalty being paid by the blood of Jesus. Same as anyone else who's transgressed the law. Whether we think it's fair or not based on life circumstances is irrelevant.

[Richards 0]

Thanks for the feedback.

I do not mean to pester you with a million questions but I am not very religious so I really can plead ignorance on many of the questions I am asking you.

Many religions claim that their specific religion is the only true path and that all others will lead a person to hell. This even goes on within christian based religions. Some christians have said that catholics will burn in hell, some catholics have said that protestants will burn in hell. What is your take on this?

If lets say for the sake of argument that christians are right and catholics are wrong. If someone has spent thier entire life being faithfull to their beliefs and worshipping God in the manner that they beleive is the best while submitting to his word as they understand it, will he burn them for an eternity because they had the misfortune of being brought up in the wrong religion? It seems scary because every religion say's that and they all have scriptures in their bible to support their claim. Can someone who in their heart is faithfull to god be eternaly punished for a misenterpretation?

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[DrOctagon 0]

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I just realized that I am a hypocrite: I gave people crap for hijacking a thread I started, then I participated in the hijacking of THIS guy's thread.

how many Hail Mary's do I owe for this?

Don't worry about the Hail Mary's...
14 weekly blasts should cover it

[jduebi 0]

Did you know that there where/are a lot of dubiously AIDS expriments with children in New York...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/4038375.stm

But that's not bad, because the great USA, the country of freedom, you decide what's right and wrong on this world. You have your own human rights, isn't it?

Torture? Is he an american? No? So why do you ask?

You even got your own understanding of a democracy. I live in Switzerland, and I can tell you, you'v no idea how a democracy even looks like.

The only thing that relieves me is, that the US people are not generaly naiv, most of them just have no idea of whats going on because of their manipulated media.