Praying for the sick

[kallend 2,070]

Doesn't help, and may make them worse.

www.nature.com/news/2006/060327/full/060327-16.html

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

I'll agree that there's no logical way for it to help them, but it's just as silly to suggest it could make them worse except for the "negative placebo effect" involved.

They just shouldn't have told the patients anything.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,031]

Hence the quote from the end of the article:

"I don't think that science can study supernatural phenomena."

[kallend 2,070]

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Hence the quote from the end of the article:

"I don't think that science can study supernatural phenomena."

It just did. It's a statistical study that refutes many anecdotal claims of the effectiveness of prayer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[steveorino 7]

I cry bogus: I can dig up "scientific" studies that say it does help. Lots of them. GOOGLE: "scientific studies that prayer works"

Irrelevant either way. Prayer is a matter of faith, not science.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

steveOrino

[narcimund 0]

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Hence the quote from the end of the article:

"I don't think that science can study supernatural phenomena."

The meaning of that statement couldn't have been, "It's impossible to do measurements of the physical consequenses of supernatural phenomena." That would be a silly thing to say.

I suspect the speaker meant to say something like, "It's unwise and unkind to do these measurements." I think the speaker feels that if people are comfortable with their superstitions, then the gentlemanly thing is to just move on and let them be.

One could compare this with the unspoken gentleman's agreement that adults seem to have regarding discussions of Santa Claus when children are nearby.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[narcimund 0]

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I cry bogus: I can dig up "scientific" studies that say it does help.

Please do so.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[steveorino 7]

Did - see edited thread -- or Google it yourself --

steveOrino

[windcatcher 0]

Hi Steve! I miss you and Spanky.

Hope you have a blessed weekend!

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[wmw999 2,485]

I went and googled it also. I see lots of stuff in religious and alternative-medicine sites (which won't be accepted by certain members of the scientific community, even if they can check the methodology.

One difference in this study is that in most studies, the power of prayer was tested -- i.e. patients didn't know if they were the ones being prayed for. In this study, all patients were being prayed for, but only one group was told of it, and they were the ones with more health problems.

It's a different study; it's really more of a study of the effect of knowing one is being prayed for, and possibly the pressure of having to "prove" the effectiveness of prayer.

But I noticed that to really control their variables, they limited their prayer to Christian prayers; I thought that was kind of interesting.

That said, I think a lot of people derive a lot of comfort from prayer, particulary when they don't feel like they're on the spot to prove it works or doesn't. Nothing wrong with that. It helps to build the community of man.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,031]

>"It's impossible to do measurements of the physical consequenses
>of supernatural phenomena." That would be a silly thing to say.

Why? It's sort of true by definition. Let me rephrase it - "it is impossible to do a scientific study of non-scientific phenomena." If it can be studied and quantified, it's not supernatural any more. If someday God is detected by a radiotelescope, theology will very rapidly move from the realm of religion to astrophysics.

>I suspect the speaker meant to say something like, "It's unwise and unkind to do these measurements."

That may well also be true.

[IanHarrop 42]

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But I noticed that to really control their variables, they limited their prayer to Christian prayers; I thought that was kind of interesting.

Having limited their prayers to Christian prayers and finding out that these prayers were ineffective, I take this to mean that Christian prayers do not work.

Now we need to do studies to see which religion's prayers do work. Once we narrowed it down we'll finally know which religion is the one true religion.

Finally!

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[steveorino 7]

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I went and googled it also. I see lots of stuff in religious and alternative-medicine sites (which won't be accepted by certain members of the scientific community, even if they can check the methodology.

Then try Googling Yale study on prayer and healing. The studies are out there. There are studies from alternative medicine / holistic / religous and scientific institutions and their results end up on both sides of the debate. My point was prayer is spiritual and a matter of faith. It cannot be "proven" in a lab. There are too many variables. As many as there are religous belief systems. One side says you need faith to be healed (their example was Jesus' inability to do many miracles when the area lacked faith.) Others state only the prayers of their religion (add in denomination) work, etc.

This is why I believe it is a matter of faith, not science. Impossible to "prove" one way or another.

steveOrino

[cumplidor 0]

Has anyone heard of quantum physics? I watched a movie a while back called "What the bleep do we know" and it was an intro to it. It disscussed some studies about prayer gatherings that have taken place in various places over the years, but focused on one in Washington, DC recently (past few years?) where they predicted a percentage drop in crime after the prayer gathering. It was a huge gathering of folks from all over the world, and afterwards the drop occured.

Anyone know about this study? or seen or heard of the movie? (and so you know, it doesn't mention 9-11, the government, or anything else like that )

[narcimund 0]

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Has anyone heard of quantum physics?

Yes, I believe I've heard that term once or twice.

What does it have to do with the rest of your post?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[cumplidor 0]

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What does it have to do with the rest of your post?

Well I was trying to relate how I heard of the prayer gatherings, and it was through this movie about Quantum Physics, called "What the bleep do we know?" http://www.whatthebleep.com/ The prayer gatherings discussed, had the predicted reduction in crime in Washington, DC. I will try to find links to the studies I am talking about...

Sorry for being confusing-

[Dougiefresh 0]

I've always thought that the benefit to prayer is completely internal; if you believe god is listening, whatever you pray for is within your own grasp. I can believe that the health of the person praying would improve. Now that would be an interesting study. 3 post-surgery groups: one that prays for their own health, one that prays for something else (say, world peace), and one that doesn't pray at all.

I kind of hope the second group's prayers come true, even if it is at the expense of the first group.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[Tenshi 0]

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Hence the quote from the end of the article:

"I don't think that science can study supernatural phenomena."

Common sense could have done the job.

[crwtom 0]

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I cry bogus: I can dig up "scientific" studies that say it does help. Lots of them. GOOGLE: "scientific studies that prayer works"

Irrelevant either way. Prayer is a matter of faith, not science.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

none that are conducted by Harvard Medical School or a
comparable institution, use a pool of 600 subjects, follow rigorous
protocol and get published by Nature News.

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[Tink1717 2]

Yep. two hands working does more that all hands praying.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[tbrown 26]

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Doesn't help, and may make them worse.

www.nature.com/news/2006/060327/full/060327-16.html

This study smacks of the kind of Safety Nazism that was exhibited a few weeks ago in the AMA's solemn warnings about the dangers of Spring Break causing intoxicatin' and fornicatin'. But it goes even deeper than that.

Prayer (or "vibes", as they are somethimes lamely called in these forums by those who are too embarrassed to admit they're praying) is something that can at least benefit the pray-er, if not (scientifically) the pray-ee. At the very least, even for non-believers, prayer is a way of admitting we're not in control of everything, least of all our own mortality, and gives us hope that in spite of the apparent facts of a case, we may yet see a cure or even a miracle. As to whether or not it actually works, that is a matter of faith. Those who pray will tell you that prayer is not always answered in the expected way.

But what these assholes are trying to accomplish is to tell the rest of us that they possess ALL the answers and that prayer does not fit into THEIR neat little scheme of things, so we might as well knock it off and trust THEM to control every aspect of our lives THEIR way.

Personally, I believe in the power of prayer (or even "vibes", ommmmm......). But I'm trying to present this argument from a secular point of view to point up the bleak and sterile world view of this medical establishment that not only cannot offer a cure, but would deny hope as well. Fuck 'em.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[niolosoiale 0]

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I'll agree that there's no logical way for it to help them, but it's just as silly to suggest it could make them worse except for the "negative placebo effect" involved.

They just shouldn't have told the patients anything.

It makes sense for some to have a "negative effect". When it comes to overcoming sickness or injury, you can either fight or give up. If people are christian folk, they may "give up" or relinquish control of their situation to god, and they may stop fighting. I think it makes sense at least.

[ltdiver 3]

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I'll agree that there's no logical way for it to help them, but it's just as silly to suggest it could make them worse except for the "negative placebo effect" involved.

They just shouldn't have told the patients anything.

It makes sense for some to have a "negative effect". When it comes to overcoming sickness or injury, you can either fight or give up. If people are christian folk, they may "give up" or relinquish control of their situation to god, and they may stop fighting. I think it makes sense at least.

What you say makes sense. If someone is a peace with what is going on (having given up to God), then they can literally 'rest in peace'.

(playing devils advocate here...) On the flip side, if they stop fighting and their spirit is at peace, then the body is under less stress (which is known to allow the body to function better...who hasn't been under tremendous stress and succumbed to being sick because of it?) and it can start the healing process.

"Fighting" = Stress. Stress = an unhealthy body. An unhealthy body = inability for a body to heal. Inability for a body to heal = Death.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[tbrown 26]

It makes sense for some to have a "negative effect". When it comes to overcoming sickness or injury, you can either fight or give up. If people are christian folk, they may "give up" or relinquish control of their situation to god, and they may stop fighting. I think it makes sense at least.

[Dolph 0]

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Prayer (or "vibes", as they are somethimes lamely called in these forums by those who are too embarrassed to admit they're praying) is something that can at least benefit the pray-er, if not (scientifically) the pray-ee.

Sounds to me more like a psychosomatic-esque reaction. There's been studies documenting how attitude can affect the healing process and so on.

About the word 'vibes' - when I used the word it certainly has no religious connotations. More of a "know I hope the best for you" statement which is a far cry from "I am trying to gather a favour from the almighty Christian God so that entitity will take action and help you with your current predicament". Your use may be different but it's fair to say the word has a rather wide range of meaning and application.

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At the very least, even for non-believers, prayer is a way of admitting we're not in control of everything, least of all our own mortality, and gives us hope that in spite of the apparent facts of a case, we may yet see a cure or even a miracle.

I don't need prayer to admit that - it takes an extreme fool, even a crazy person, to think that everything is under control. It matches so poorly with reality that anyone holding such thoughts sincerely would be categorized as having hallucinations.

More likely prayer to the believer states: "I know *I* am not in control - but *something else* is!". Then it's down to asking or begging this something to intervene. Nothing wrong with that in any way. Hope is extremely important and I do not really care where it comes from as long as it's there.

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Hope and faith are closely related perhaps, but they are two distinct concepts.But what these assholes are trying to accomplish is to tell the rest of us that they possess ALL the answers and that prayer does not fit into THEIR neat little scheme of things, so we might as well knock it off and trust THEM to control every aspect of our lives THEIR way.

I don't see it that way. If someone claims to be able to move a car by using Mind Rays(tm), scientists will be there to test that assertion. Prayer working is not so different from that - in fact it is even more complex, involving an outside actor who basically has to be omnipotent. What scientists are saying basically that the claim has little scientific basis, and here's why.

Science has brought us out of the dark yeas of superstition and rid us of many of the evils of those times. And it's still doing its job.

I'd rather have a surgeon fix a busted femur than having all the Christians in the world pray for me, asking for it to heal quickly and well. If there is an all powerful deity out there, it is already omniscient and certainly do not need the assistance of humans to know what shit is going down in his territory.