Video Claims to Show Pilot Being Dragged

[ViperPilot 0]

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We should not stand for that, nor should anyone. When we torture Iraqis to death, it brings us a little closer to the people we claim to despise. Eventually people may start to think that we are part of the problem. And if that happens, then we are done in Iraq.

All good points...the only problem is, how many Iraqis has the US military tortured to death? I'm sure accidents have happened, but honest-to-God tortured to death Iraqis, how many? Not "oh he got sick while be interrogated, thus they tortured him to death" bs. How many bill, and what's the source you're getting this from? In reality, if this really was occuring as much as I think you're going to say it is, there'd be massive international shitstorm...but there's not, thus I find it highly unlikely that a major problem exists. But if you know something I don't, by all means share.

[ViperPilot 0]

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Hangs people by their arms and beats them to death?

Pulls people's nails out to extract confessions?

Rapes male prisoners with brooms?

You have proof that this stuff happens all the time, or even more than one or two isolated cases? And again, what's your source?

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If this is really going to devolve to "well, dragging someone to death is worse than beating them to death" then you've already lost.

And no, that's not the argument I'm getting into.

[LargeBoy 0]

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Weren't you hoorahing and all happy when someone posted pictures of their "kill" in Iraq, some in which they were next to the body with their "trophy" shot?

Don't know what thread you're talking about...if it's the one about that really far shot, then you're just blowing smoke up your own butt. I said nice shot, that was it....and it was a nice shot.

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Both sides do it. It is repulsive. But don't delude yourself into thinking that it's a one sided street, and that it shows how inhuman they are and how human we are.

Both sides do what?......

Hang charred bodies from bridges and rally around them and cheer?

Light bodies on fire and drag them through the streets in triumph?

Calmly walk into a hospital and detonate a bomb, knowing full well they're killing women, children and medical personnel...no soldiers?

Walk into a school room, drag 5 or so teachers out in the street and execute them?

Slice children's heads off with machetes because they cooperated with the "infadels"?

Take countless civilian hostages, slicing heads off of many of them...boobytrapping several of the bodies in the process? (mind you these are aid workers related 0% to the military).

Ok there's a small fraction of what one side has done (I'll leave it to you to figure out which)...what's the other done?

Taken inappropriate pictures

Verbal harassment

Sleep deprivation

put the other side in jail

....funny, the "bad" things that happen to the other side are similar things that happen to military personnel in training. Oh my God, someone yelled at them...oh my God, they were kept awake! Say it aint so....

please, get off your humanitarian soap box, it's disgusting.

well, why dont you get out of somebody elses country and stop moaning about how they treat you

if i keep sticking my hand in a fire and keep getting burnt... is it best to carry on sticking it in and moan like an old woman that it hurts, or is it best to not put myself in that position anymore?

[n23x 0]

I cannot give a specific time-frame for when it was, but it was some dz.commer stationed in Iraq who had taken less than respectful "trophy shots" of his "kill".

Responses to the thread sounded like a bunch of drunk hillbillies dancing around a deer that had just been shot, with very few of them showing any remorse for taking a human life.

The shooter himself described excitement for the situation, though not pride in taking a human life, something which I can respect.

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please, get off your humanitarian soap box, it's disgusting.

please, stop your masturbatory self-righteous behavior, it's ruining our country.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[LargeBoy 0]

i've just watched the clip on Ogrish.com, it's quite blurred, not as good as the head chopping ones

[ViperPilot 0]

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well, why dont you get out of somebody elses country and stop moaning about how they treat you

Firstly, not our call if were there or not...trust me, I'd rather be in balad then at home playing golf and being with my wife....right...although I do enjoy flying, don't get me wrong. Secondly, this isn't moaning about how someone treats us, it's a discussion about the immoral practices of others, regardless of where it takes place, when it takes place, who does it against who, etc.

[ViperPilot 0]

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Responses to the thread sounded like a bunch of drunk hillbillies dancing around a deer that had just been shot, with very few of them showing any remorse for taking a human life.

I must have missed that one...we're not thinking of the same one then...I didn't post in there. There's nothing wrong with being glad you shot the shitbag who just killed one of your buddies, but yes, it can get out of hand and in a way, morally wrong...I'll take your word on it that it crossed the line.

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please, stop your masturbatory self-righteous behavior, it's ruining our country.

Good one...want a cookie?

[LargeBoy 0]

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well, why dont you get out of somebody elses country and stop moaning about how they treat you

Firstly, not our call if were there or not...trust me, I'd rather be in balad then at home playing golf and being with my wife....right...although I do enjoy flying, don't get me wrong. Secondly, this isn't moaning about how someone treats us, it's a discussion about the immoral practices of others, regardless of where it takes place, when it takes place, who does it against who, etc.

didn't george "dubya" announce America was AT WAR with terror? forgive me if i'm worng... but aren't you now moaning that the people you're at war with are not playing by the rules and treating people (dead people) as you'd like? why do they have to comply with how you think they should? its war, not a stroll in the park.... they can act how ever they like during war, if you dont like that, dont declare yourself at war with them

[n23x 0]

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want a cookie?

Not really, though a poke for a poke is fair.

Now, with regard to this:

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...but yes, it can get out of hand and in a way, morally wrong...

I am a little unsure of how you can make this comment (undoubtedly about "our side"), and then say that their actions are so immoral relative to ours.

Care to elaborate?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[kallend 2,026]

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well, why dont you get out of somebody elses country and stop moaning about how they treat you

Firstly, not our call if were there or not...trust me, I'd rather be in balad then at home playing golf and being with my wife....right...although I do enjoy flying, don't get me wrong. Secondly, this isn't moaning about how someone treats us, it's a discussion about the immoral practices of others, regardless of where it takes place, when it takes place, who does it against who, etc.

didn't george "dubya" announce America was AT WAR with terror? forgive me if i'm worng... but aren't you now moaning that the people you're at war with are not playing by the rules and treating people (dead people) as you'd like? why do they have to comply with how you think they should? its war, not a stroll in the park.... they can act how ever they like during war, if you dont like that, dont declare yourself at war with them

Stop applying logic to an emotional issue, it never works.


The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002.

All’s fair in love and war

People in love and soldiers in wartime are not bound by the rules of fair play.

But we always claim the other side is worse, so we are justified.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ViperPilot 0]

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but aren't you now moaning that the people you're at war with are not playing by the rules and treating people (dead people) as you'd like?

I'm not moaning that they're not playing by the rules, I'm just expressing my disdain for how they treat other human beings. Just like I think rapist and wife beaters are pieces of shit...should they have to agree with what I think...according to you, apparently not. It's not about rules, it's about certain rights EVERY living/dead person has.

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they can act how ever they like during war

Well in reality they should really follow the rules of war...and yes, there ARE rules of war, plenty of them. Too bad the last guys to do that were the Nazis...surprisingly enough.

[ViperPilot 0]

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Not really, though a poke for a poke is fair.

I'll get the wife to make some peanut butter ones...they're good!

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I am a little unsure of how you can make this comment (undoubtedly about "our side"), and then say that their actions are so immoral relative to ours.

We were talking about a bunch of "hill billies" as you called them, being happy that some enemy died. I'm not saying the other side isn't entitled to being happy when they kill their enemy, but that doesn't give them the right to do the things they do. Talking about how awesome of a shot someone made is apples and oranges to setting bodies on fire and parading them through the street.

[skydyvr 0]

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Everyone, not just you Bill, needs to stop kidding themselves and saying the immoral behavior is equal on both sides.

Yep, it's the patented Billvon "ping-pong ball next to the beach ball" diversion. Someone talkin' smack about Islamic terrorism? Well, be sure to bring up those pesky abortion clinic bombers too -- the point being that we're all same-same, really, and that there's two equally valid sides to every story anyway. Nevermind there's been THOUSANDS of civilians intentionally blown up in restaurants and on buses for every abortion doctor who's ever been wacked. Just forget that part, because it doesn't support the point.

You know, sometimes evil just manifests itself in the world, whether it's Christian aggression 500 years ago, the Nazis 70 years ago, or Islam TODAY. In the end, there is no "upside" argument in favor of those evil things, and so things aren't "same-same" in this just-getting-started war of East vs.West.

. . =(_8^(1)

[ViperPilot 0]

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soldiers in wartime are not bound by the rules of fair play

Think again on that one Kallend...you'd be shocked how many damn rules there are. You think we just up and left ridiculous "fair" war with the Civil War when it was men marching against men, in gentleman fashion? It may not be that bad...but war is still pretty damn "fair play" when fought by the rules.

[billvon 2,990]

>You have proof that this stuff happens all the time, or even more than
>one or two isolated cases?


Here are a few from 2002-2003, as reported by the US military:

June 6, 2003 - Naem Sadoon Hatab was found strangled in an outdoor isolation area at the Whitehorse detention facility in Nasiriya, Iraq, according to his death certificate.

June 13, 2003 - Dilar Dababa died of a severe head injury in Iraq.

Nov. 4, 2003 - Manadel Jamadi died of blunt-force injuries complicated by "compromised respiration" at Abu Ghraib. The suspected homicide occurred while he was with Navy SEALs and other special operations troops.

Jan. 9, 2003 - Abdul Jaleel died of blunt-force injuries and asphyxiation at a prison in Al Asad, Iraq. His case is one of the suspected incidents of homicide still under investigation. Jaleel was found gagged and shackled to a cell door with his hands over his head.

May 12, 2003 - Maj. Gen. Abid Mowhosh, former commander of Iraq's air defenses, died of asphyxiation due to smothering and chest compression in Qaim, Iraq.

Nov. 6, 2003 - Abdul Wahid died of multiple blunt-force injuries — complicated by what examiners suspect was a condition in which toxins are released to the body, sometimes due to a crushing injury or an electrical shock — at a detention center in Helmand province.

Dec. 3, 2002 - Habib Ullah died of a blood clot caused by a blunt-force injury at Bagram.

Dec 10, 2002 - An Afghan named Dilawar died of blunt-force injuries to his lower body that complicated his coronary artery disease at the base outside Kabul, according to the death certificates.

Now, these are only the ones that have been investigated. Many are not until someone (foolishly) takes pictures of people they have beaten to death. Also, these only go through 2003.

>And again, what's your source?

Taguba's report, for one. (Unless you think the US Army is a biased liberal source.) Amnesty International. The Pentagon. You're not going to make these go away.

>In reality, if this really was occuring as much as I think you're going
>to say it is, there'd be massive international shitstorm...but there's not,
>thus I find it highly unlikely that a major problem exists.

There HAS been a big stink. The people making the stink have been labeled america-haters by right wingers and studiously ignored. The reports of torture and death have been labeled lies by the reactionary liberal press. Fortunately, more people are taking note of late, and it's getting harder to cover it up.

[kallend 2,026]

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soldiers in wartime are not bound by the rules of fair play

Think again on that one Kallend...you'd be shocked how many damn rules there are. You think we just up and left ridiculous "fair" war with the Civil War when it was men marching against men, in gentleman fashion? It may not be that bad...but war is still pretty damn "fair play" when fought by the rules.

You are arguing with the definition of an aphorism from a cultural dictionary and totally missed the point.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[akarunway 1]

I hate to say it but if you invaded MY SOVEREIGN NATION I'd do whatever the fuck i have to do to repel you. Fuck Bush

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[boringjen 0]

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Well in reality they should really follow the rules of war...and yes, there ARE rules of war, plenty of them.

Perhaps they thought he was an "enemy combatant".

Not that I enjoy it when someone's remains aren't treated in the manner they requested, but I really find it hard to get excited about people desecrating human remains in a wartime scenario. It's war, for Christ's sake. On the scale of all the possible horrors (intentional, collateral, or otherwise) that can happen during a war, desecrating dead human bodies ranks pretty low for me.

There is no guarantee we're even going to get all/any of your remains back. If they happen to be intercepted by the enemy and even mistreated, it's unfortunate, but the real tragedy is that this man is dead and his family is without him.

Jen
"I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter." - Winston Churchill

[LargeBoy 0]

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Well in reality they should really follow the rules of war...and yes, there ARE rules of war, plenty of them. Too bad the last guys to do that were the Nazis...surprisingly enough.

hahahahahahaha

thats like two men boxing and one saying to the other "will you stop hitting me so hard, you're not being fair"

[ViperPilot 0]

Well I count only a couple on that list that actually are talking about soldiers willingly causing that blunt force trauma with hope of it severely injuring or killing the person. Sounds like half of those only lead the reader to speculate what caused the death. Nonetheless, I'm not arguing assbags in the US military haven't crossed the line and done something horrible (as I read in a few of these)...they should be punished just like anyone else.

However, the argument still stands that it's ludicrous to say the US military is equal, or even close to, the insurgents.

[ViperPilot 0]

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You are arguing with the definition of an aphorism from a cultural dictionary and totally missed the point.

Nevermind, I did get it after the point.

[ViperPilot 0]

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I hate to say it but if you invaded MY SOVEREIGN NATION I'd do whatever the fuck i have to do to repel you. Fuck Bush
what can not be remedied must be endured

A well thought out, intellectual post from someone who obviously knows nothing about international law.

[ViperPilot 0]

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erhaps they thought he was an "enemy combatant". Unimpressed

Not saying they didn't have a right to kill him, they didn't have a right to do what they did after the fact (according to the rules of war).

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I really find it hard to get excited about people desecrating human remains in a wartime scenario. It's war, for Christ's sake

It's not wrong how they end up after the attack (e.g. what happened to them b/c of a bomb, bullets, etc), it's wrong what was done with their bodies after they were killed....according to rules of war and international law that is.

[Eiley 0]

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I hate to say it but if you invaded MY SOVEREIGN NATION I'd do whatever the fuck i have to do to repel you. Fuck Bush
what can not be remedied must be endured

A well thought out, intellectual post from someone who obviously knows nothing about international law.

I don't know much about international law either, but isn't soveriegnty of states one of the most basic tenets of it?

Also, has Iraq consented to be bound by any of the conventions covering rules of war? IIRC, the rules are only binding on those states that agree to be bound.

Honest questions.

nothing to see here

[akarunway 1]

Fuck. I've been all over the world in a miitary family all my life. You haven't a fuckin clue what I know Edit to add I was roaming the hills in the Phillipines when the POWS came back from NAM. (Hanoi Hilton boys. Personally met a few of them when my dad snuck em out the hospital) You were prolly in diapers then right?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.