There IS a problem with global warming... it stopped in 1998

[DJL 235]

  On 2/14/2020 at 6:32 PM, brenthutch said:

With a warming rate of 0.02 degrees in four years, it will take three centuries before we reach the "dangerous" threshold of 1.5 degrees.  Again not a big deal in my book.

According to an Electrical Engineer you found on the internet who lists The Climate as a hobby.

Edit: Wait a sec, or did you just grab the temperature four years ago and use that to get your average rate of warming?

Edit2: Holy shit, that's what you did, you're referring to the temp difference from 2016.  I'm not sure you're making a joke but are you?

Edited February 14, 2020 by DJL

[billvon 3,075]

  On 2/14/2020 at 7:00 PM, DJL said:

Edit: Wait a sec, or did you just grab the temperature four years ago and use that to get your average rate of warming?

Heck, that's nothing.  I just compared today's temperature to the temperature six months ago and it's TEN DEGREES cooler!

[brenthutch 444]

No, according to NOAA.  January 2020 was 0.02 degrees C warmer than 2016.  The rest is just math.

Edited February 14, 2020 by brenthutch

[DJL 235]

  On 2/14/2020 at 7:09 PM, brenthutch said:

No, according to NOAA.  January 2020 was 0.02 degrees C warmer than 2016.  The rest is just math.

You're not wrong.  If you take the temperature difference between Jan 2016 and Jan 2020 and use that as the measure of difference for all of eternity it will always be a difference of 0.5 C per century.  Sir, you have solved global warming.

Edited February 14, 2020 by DJL

[kallend 2,106]

Some serious troll feeding going on here.

[brenthutch 444]

 

[billvon 3,075]

  On 2/14/2020 at 9:07 PM, kallend said:

Some serious troll feeding going on here.

Trolls are HUNGRY and must make people mad to fill their bellies!

[wmw999 2,544]

  On 2/14/2020 at 11:56 PM, billvon said:

Trolls are HUNGRY and must make people mad to fill their bellies!

Ergo the ignore button

Wendy P. 

[brenthutch 444]

  On 2/14/2020 at 11:56 PM, billvon said:

Trolls are HUNGRY and must make people mad to fill their bellies!

Truth hurts, more importantly, why would it make you mad?

Edited February 15, 2020 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,836]

  On 2/15/2020 at 2:52 AM, brenthutch said:

Truth hurts, more importantly, why would it make you mad?

Boy, that's rich.

 

[brenthutch 444]

  On 2/15/2020 at 3:06 AM, JoeWeber said:

Boy, that's rich.

 

Yeah, I don't get it.  NOAA declares this past January the hottest January in history, beating the previous hottest January in 2016 by 0.02 degrees.  Yet we have no more floods, droughts, hurricanes, wildfires or acne.  All we have is less poverty and more food.  Why cant you guys get on board with reality?  

[JoeWeber 2,836]

  On 2/15/2020 at 3:16 AM, brenthutch said:

Yeah, I don't get it.  NOAA declares this past January the hottest January in history, beating the previous hottest January in 2016 by 0.02 degrees.  Yet we have no more floods, droughts, hurricanes, wildfires or acne.  All we have is less poverty and more food.  Why cant you guys get on board with reality?  

Just reading that caused two zits to pop. You know, I spend a fair bit of time anywhere but here and for the last number of years a lot of that has been spent sailing where hurricanes rule. I've mentioned it before but I really think you need to get out more. 

[brenthutch 444]

  On 2/15/2020 at 3:26 AM, JoeWeber said:

Just reading that caused two zits to pop. You know, I spend a fair bit of time anywhere but here and for the last number of years a lot of that has been spent sailing where hurricanes rule. I've mentioned it before but I really think you need to get out more. 

So are you saying that the hurricanes are more frequent, stronger, and last longer that at anytime in the past?  If you can prove that, I would reconsider my position. 

[JoeWeber 2,836]

  On 2/15/2020 at 3:34 AM, brenthutch said:

So are you saying that the hurricanes are more frequent, stronger, and last longer that at anytime in the past?  If you can prove that, I would reconsider my position. 

I am not making that claim; past is prologue is your argument not mine. The timing of the seasons around the world are changing. That's not just what I see it's what locals talk about. Also, all weather--not climate--seems more extreme. Not just this year or last but on a continuing basis for years now. None of that is supportive of any refutation of your positions. All of it could be claimed to be from a momentary earth wobble, no question. All I am saying is that from nowhere but Happy Valley and your familiar information sources and the people who now know you and what you believe I can see why you have zero doubt you are right.

[brenthutch 444]

Yes, you are correct, a lot of folks feel that weather is more "extreme" and that the cause of those changes are the sins of man.  This is nothing new however, that notion has been around for thousands of years.  I think Colbert described that feeling as "truthiness".

 http://www.cc.com/video-playlists/kw3fj0/the-opposition-with-jordan-klepper-welcome-to-the-opposition-w--jordan-klepper/63ite2

When you can provide actual data to support the notion of more "extreme" weather, I will happy to take a look.  

Edited February 15, 2020 by brenthutch

[BIGUN 1,422]

  On 2/15/2020 at 12:56 PM, brenthutch said:

When you can provide actual data to support the notion of more "extreme" weather, I will happy to take a look.  

1. Ashley, S. T., and W. S. Ashley, 2008: Flood fatalities in the United States. Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, 47, 805-818, doi:10.1175/2007JAMX1611.1. URL | Detail ↩

2. Bell, G. D., E. S. Blake, C. W. Landsea, T. B. Kimberlain, S. B. Goldenberg, J. Schemm, and R. J. Pasch, 2012: [Tropical cyclones] Atlantic basin [in "State of the Climate in 2011"]. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 93, S99-S105, doi:10.1175/2012BAMSStateoftheClimate.1. URL | Detail ↩

3. Camargo, S. J., M. Ting, and Y. Kushnir, 2013: Influence of local and remote SST on North Atlantic tropical cyclone potential intensity. Climate Dynamics, 40, 1515-1529, doi:10.1007/s00382-012-1536-4. | Detail ↩

4. Christidis, N., P. A. Stott, and S. J. Brown, 2011: The role of human activity in the recent warming of extremely warm daytime temperatures. Journal of Climate, 24, 1922-1930, doi:10.1175/2011JCLI4150.1. | Detail ↩

5. Dai, A., 2006: Recent climatology, variability, and trends in global surface humidity. Journal of Climate, 19, 3589-3606, doi:10.1175/JCLI3816.1. URL | Detail ↩

6. Doocy, S., A. Daniels, S. Murray, and T. D. Kirsch, 2013: The human impact of floods: A historical review of events 1980-2009 and systematic literature review. PLOS Currents Disasters, doi:10.1371/currents.dis.f4deb457904936b07c09daa98ee8171a. URL | Detail ↩

7. Duffy, P. B., and C. Tebaldi, 2012: Increasing prevalence of extreme summer temperatures in the U.S. Climatic Change, 111, 487-495, doi:10.1007/s10584-012-0396-6. | Detail ↩

8. Emanuel, K., and A. Sobel, 2013: Response of tropical sea surface temperature, precipitation, and tropical cyclone-related variables to changes in global and local forcing. Journal of Advances in Modeling Earth Systems, 5, 447-458, doi:10.1002/jame.20032. URL | Detail ↩

9. Hirsch, R. M., and K. R. Ryberg, 2012: Has the magnitude of floods across the USA changed with global CO₂ levels? Hydrological Sciences Journal, 57, 1-9, doi:10.1080/02626667.2011.621895. URL | Detail ↩

10. Hoerling, M., M. Chen, R. Dole, J. Eischeid, A. Kumar, J. W. Nielsen-Gammon, P. Pegion, J. Perlwitz, X. - W. Quan, and T. Zhang, 2013: Anatomy of an extreme event. Journal of Climate, 26, 2811–2832, doi:10.1175/JCLI-D-12-00270.1. URL | Detail ↩

11. Kunkel, K. E. et al., 2013: Monitoring and understanding trends in extreme storms: State of knowledge. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 94, doi:10.1175/BAMS-D-11-00262.1. URL | Detail ↩

12. Landsea, C. W., and J. L. Franklin, 2013: Atlantic hurricane database uncertainty and presentation of a new database format. Monthly Weather Review, 141, 3576-3592, doi:10.1175/MWR-D-12-00254.1. URL | Detail ↩

13. Mueller, B., and S. I. Seneviratne, 2012: Hot days induced by precipitation deficits at the global scale. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 109, 12398-12403, doi:10.1073/pnas.1204330109. URL | Detail ↩

14. NCDC, 2012: Climate Data Online. National Climatic Data Center. URL | Detail ↩

15. NOAA, 2013: Billion Dollar Weather/Climate Disasters. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. URL | Detail ↩

16. NOAA, 2013: United States Flood Loss Report - Water Year 2011. 10 pp., National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Weather Service. URL | Detail ↩

17. Peterson, T. C. et al., 2013: Monitoring and understanding changes in heat waves, cold waves, floods and droughts in the United States: State of knowledge. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 94, 821-834, doi:10.1175/BAMS-D-12-00066.1. URL | Detail ↩

18. Ramsay, H. A., and A. H. Sobel, 2011: Effects of relative and absolute sea surface temperature on tropical cyclone potential intensity using a single-column model. Journal of Climate, 24, 183-193, doi:10.1175/2010jcli3690.1. URL | Detail ↩

19. Santer, B. D., C. Mears, F. J. Wentz, K. E. Taylor, P. J. Gleckler, T. M. L. Wigley, T. P. Barnett, J. S. Boyle, W. Brüggemann, N. P. Gillett, S. A. Klein, G. A. Meehl, T. Nozawa, D. W. Pierce, P. A. Stott, W. M. Washington, and M. F. Wehner, 2007: Identification of human-induced changes in atmospheric moisture content. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 104, 15248-15253, doi:10.1073/pnas.0702872104. URL | Detail ↩

20. Sheffield, J., E. F. Wood, and M. L. Roderick, 2012: Little change in global drought over the past 60 years. Nature, 491, 435-438, doi:10.1038/nature11575. URL | Detail ↩

21. Simmons, A. J., K. M. Willett, P. D. Jones, P. W. Thorne, and D. P. Dee, 2010: Low-frequency variations in surface atmospheric humidity, temperature, and precipitation: Inferences from reanalyses and monthly gridded observational data sets. Journal of Geophysical Research, 115, 1-21, doi:10.1029/2009JD012442. | Detail ↩

22. Torn, R. D., and C. Snyder, 2012: Uncertainty of tropical cyclone best-track information. Weather and Forecasting, 27, 715-729, doi:10.1175/waf-d-11-00085.1. URL | Detail ↩

23. Vecchi, G. A., and B. J. Soden, 2007: Effect of remote sea surface temperature change on tropical cyclone potential intensity. Nature, 450, 1066-1070, doi:10.1038/nature06423. | Detail ↩

24. Vecchi, G. A., A. Clement, and B. J. Soden, 2008: Examining the tropical Pacific's response to global warming. Eos, Transactions, American Geophysical Union, 89, 81-83, doi:10.1029/2008EO090002. | Detail ↩

25. Villarini, G., and J. A. Smith, 2010: Flood peak distributions for the eastern United States. Water Resources Research, 46, W06504, doi:10.1029/2009wr008395. URL | Detail ↩

26. Villarini, G., F. Serinaldi, J. A. Smith, and W. F. Krajewski, 2009: On the stationarity of annual flood peaks in the continental United States during the 20th century. Water Resources Research, 45, W08417, doi:10.1029/2008wr007645. URL | Detail ↩

27. Villarini, G., J. A. Smith, M. Lynn Baeck, and W. F. Krajewski, 2011: Examining flood frequency distributions in the Midwest U.S. JAWRA Journal of the American Water Resources Association, 47, 447-463, doi:10.1111/j.1752-1688.2011.00540.x. URL | Detail ↩

28. Vose, R. S. et al., 2013: Monitoring and understanding changes in extremes: Extratropical storms, winds, and waves. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, in press, doi:10.1175/BAMS-D-12-00162.1. URL | Detail ↩

29. Wang, X. L., Y. Feng, G. P. Compo, V. R. Swail, F. W. Zwiers, R. J. Allan, and P. D. Sardeshmukh, 2012: Trends and low frequency variability of extra-tropical cyclone activity in the ensemble of twentieth century reanalysis. Climate Dynamics, 40, 2775-2800, doi:10.1007/s00382-012-1450-9. | Detail ↩

30. Wang, X. L., V. R. Swail, and F. W. Zwiers, 2006: Climatology and changes of extratropical cyclone activity: Comparison of ERA-40 with NCEP-NCAR reanalysis for 1958-2001. Journal of Climate, 19, 3145-3166, doi:10.1175/JCLI3781.1. URL | Detail ↩

31. Willett, K. M., P. D. Jones, N. P. Gillett, and P. W. Thorne, 2008: Recent changes in surface humidity: Development of the HadCRUH dataset. Journal of Climate, 21, 5364-5383, doi:10.1175/2008JCLI2274.1. | Detail ↩

32. Zhang, R., and T. L. Delworth, 2009: A new method for attributing climate variations over the Atlantic Hurricane Basin's main development region. Geophysical Research Letters, 36, 5, doi:10.1029/2009GL037260. | Detail ↩

[JoeWeber 2,836]

  On 2/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, BIGUN said:

1. Ashley, S. T., and W. S. Ashley, 2008: Flood fatalities in the United States. Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, 47, 805-818, doi:10.1175/2007JAMX1611.1. URL | Detail ↩

2. Bell, G. D., E. S. Blake, C. W. Landsea, T. B. Kimberlain, S. B. Goldenberg, J. Schemm, and R. J. Pasch, 2012: [Tropical cyclones] Atlantic basin [in "State of the Climate in 2011"]. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 93, S99-S105, doi:10.1175/2012BAMSStateoftheClimate.1. URL | Detail ↩

3. Camargo, S. J., M. Ting, and Y. Kushnir, 2013: Influence of local and remote SST on North Atlantic tropical cyclone potential intensity. Climate Dynamics, 40, 1515-1529, doi:10.1007/s00382-012-1536-4. | Detail ↩

4. Christidis, N., P. A. Stott, and S. J. Brown, 2011: The role of human activity in the recent warming of extremely warm daytime temperatures. Journal of Climate, 24, 1922-1930, doi:10.1175/2011JCLI4150.1. | Detail ↩

5. Dai, A., 2006: Recent climatology, variability, and trends in global surface humidity. Journal of Climate, 19, 3589-3606, doi:10.1175/JCLI3816.1. URL | Detail ↩

6. Doocy, S., A. Daniels, S. Murray, and T. D. Kirsch, 2013: The human impact of floods: A historical review of events 1980-2009 and systematic literature review. PLOS Currents Disasters, doi:10.1371/currents.dis.f4deb457904936b07c09daa98ee8171a. URL | Detail ↩

7. Duffy, P. B., and C. Tebaldi, 2012: Increasing prevalence of extreme summer temperatures in the U.S. Climatic Change, 111, 487-495, doi:10.1007/s10584-012-0396-6. | Detail ↩

8. Emanuel, K., and A. Sobel, 2013: Response of tropical sea surface temperature, precipitation, and tropical cyclone-related variables to changes in global and local forcing. Journal of Advances in Modeling Earth Systems, 5, 447-458, doi:10.1002/jame.20032. URL | Detail ↩

9. Hirsch, R. M., and K. R. Ryberg, 2012: Has the magnitude of floods across the USA changed with global CO₂ levels? Hydrological Sciences Journal, 57, 1-9, doi:10.1080/02626667.2011.621895. URL | Detail ↩

10. Hoerling, M., M. Chen, R. Dole, J. Eischeid, A. Kumar, J. W. Nielsen-Gammon, P. Pegion, J. Perlwitz, X. - W. Quan, and T. Zhang, 2013: Anatomy of an extreme event. Journal of Climate, 26, 2811–2832, doi:10.1175/JCLI-D-12-00270.1. URL | Detail ↩

11. Kunkel, K. E. et al., 2013: Monitoring and understanding trends in extreme storms: State of knowledge. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 94, doi:10.1175/BAMS-D-11-00262.1. URL | Detail ↩

12. Landsea, C. W., and J. L. Franklin, 2013: Atlantic hurricane database uncertainty and presentation of a new database format. Monthly Weather Review, 141, 3576-3592, doi:10.1175/MWR-D-12-00254.1. URL | Detail ↩

13. Mueller, B., and S. I. Seneviratne, 2012: Hot days induced by precipitation deficits at the global scale. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 109, 12398-12403, doi:10.1073/pnas.1204330109. URL | Detail ↩

14. NCDC, 2012: Climate Data Online. National Climatic Data Center. URL | Detail ↩

15. NOAA, 2013: Billion Dollar Weather/Climate Disasters. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. URL | Detail ↩

16. NOAA, 2013: United States Flood Loss Report - Water Year 2011. 10 pp., National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, National Weather Service. URL | Detail ↩

17. Peterson, T. C. et al., 2013: Monitoring and understanding changes in heat waves, cold waves, floods and droughts in the United States: State of knowledge. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 94, 821-834, doi:10.1175/BAMS-D-12-00066.1. URL | Detail ↩

18. Ramsay, H. A., and A. H. Sobel, 2011: Effects of relative and absolute sea surface temperature on tropical cyclone potential intensity using a single-column model. Journal of Climate, 24, 183-193, doi:10.1175/2010jcli3690.1. URL | Detail ↩

19. Santer, B. D., C. Mears, F. J. Wentz, K. E. Taylor, P. J. Gleckler, T. M. L. Wigley, T. P. Barnett, J. S. Boyle, W. Brüggemann, N. P. Gillett, S. A. Klein, G. A. Meehl, T. Nozawa, D. W. Pierce, P. A. Stott, W. M. Washington, and M. F. Wehner, 2007: Identification of human-induced changes in atmospheric moisture content. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 104, 15248-15253, doi:10.1073/pnas.0702872104. URL | Detail ↩

20. Sheffield, J., E. F. Wood, and M. L. Roderick, 2012: Little change in global drought over the past 60 years. Nature, 491, 435-438, doi:10.1038/nature11575. URL | Detail ↩

21. Simmons, A. J., K. M. Willett, P. D. Jones, P. W. Thorne, and D. P. Dee, 2010: Low-frequency variations in surface atmospheric humidity, temperature, and precipitation: Inferences from reanalyses and monthly gridded observational data sets. Journal of Geophysical Research, 115, 1-21, doi:10.1029/2009JD012442. | Detail ↩

22. Torn, R. D., and C. Snyder, 2012: Uncertainty of tropical cyclone best-track information. Weather and Forecasting, 27, 715-729, doi:10.1175/waf-d-11-00085.1. URL | Detail ↩

23. Vecchi, G. A., and B. J. Soden, 2007: Effect of remote sea surface temperature change on tropical cyclone potential intensity. Nature, 450, 1066-1070, doi:10.1038/nature06423. | Detail ↩

24. Vecchi, G. A., A. Clement, and B. J. Soden, 2008: Examining the tropical Pacific's response to global warming. Eos, Transactions, American Geophysical Union, 89, 81-83, doi:10.1029/2008EO090002. | Detail ↩

25. Villarini, G., and J. A. Smith, 2010: Flood peak distributions for the eastern United States. Water Resources Research, 46, W06504, doi:10.1029/2009wr008395. URL | Detail ↩

26. Villarini, G., F. Serinaldi, J. A. Smith, and W. F. Krajewski, 2009: On the stationarity of annual flood peaks in the continental United States during the 20th century. Water Resources Research, 45, W08417, doi:10.1029/2008wr007645. URL | Detail ↩

27. Villarini, G., J. A. Smith, M. Lynn Baeck, and W. F. Krajewski, 2011: Examining flood frequency distributions in the Midwest U.S. JAWRA Journal of the American Water Resources Association, 47, 447-463, doi:10.1111/j.1752-1688.2011.00540.x. URL | Detail ↩

28. Vose, R. S. et al., 2013: Monitoring and understanding changes in extremes: Extratropical storms, winds, and waves. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, in press, doi:10.1175/BAMS-D-12-00162.1. URL | Detail ↩

29. Wang, X. L., Y. Feng, G. P. Compo, V. R. Swail, F. W. Zwiers, R. J. Allan, and P. D. Sardeshmukh, 2012: Trends and low frequency variability of extra-tropical cyclone activity in the ensemble of twentieth century reanalysis. Climate Dynamics, 40, 2775-2800, doi:10.1007/s00382-012-1450-9. | Detail ↩

30. Wang, X. L., V. R. Swail, and F. W. Zwiers, 2006: Climatology and changes of extratropical cyclone activity: Comparison of ERA-40 with NCEP-NCAR reanalysis for 1958-2001. Journal of Climate, 19, 3145-3166, doi:10.1175/JCLI3781.1. URL | Detail ↩

31. Willett, K. M., P. D. Jones, N. P. Gillett, and P. W. Thorne, 2008: Recent changes in surface humidity: Development of the HadCRUH dataset. Journal of Climate, 21, 5364-5383, doi:10.1175/2008JCLI2274.1. | Detail ↩

32. Zhang, R., and T. L. Delworth, 2009: A new method for attributing climate variations over the Atlantic Hurricane Basin's main development region. Geophysical Research Letters, 36, 5, doi:10.1029/2009GL037260. | Detail ↩

Ruh-ro.

[kallend 2,106]

  On 2/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, BIGUN said:

1. Ashley, S. T., and W. S. Ashley, 2008: Flood fatalities in the United States. Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, 47, 805-818, doi:10.1175/2007JAMX1611.1. URL | Detail ↩

2. Bell, G. D., E. S. Blake, C. W. Landsea, T. B. Kimberlain, S. B. Goldenberg, J. Schemm, and R. J. Pasch, 2012: [Tropical cyclones] Atlantic basin [in "State of the Climate in 2011"]. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, 93, S99-S105, doi:10.1175/2012BAMSStateoftheClimate.1. URL | Detail ↩

3. .....   , etc.

Yes, but what do they know?  The TV weatherman who started the Weather Channel  says otherwise, as does the stable genius DJT.

[brenthutch 444]

  On 2/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, BIGUN said:

1. Ashley, S. T., and W. S. Ashley, 2008: Flood fatalities in the United States. Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, 47, 805-818, doi:10.1175/2007JAMX1611.1. URL | Detail ↩

Most of what you linked to is outdated and the trends observed in many cases have reversed themselves.  For example, the record warmth in the United States.  The last two years did not even make the top twenty.  Nothing extreme about that.  And I cant believe it took a bunch of PHDs to figure out that floods are more costly in rich countries with expensive infrastructure.  As far as deadly concerned, no flood in this century even made into the top twenty. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by brenthutch

[billvon 3,075]

  On 2/15/2020 at 3:26 AM, JoeWeber said:

Just reading that caused two zits to pop. You know, I spend a fair bit of time anywhere but here and for the last number of years a lot of that has been spent sailing where hurricanes rule. I've mentioned it before but I really think you need to get out more. 

That's why climate denialism is failing and will ultimately go the way of the flat Earthers.  You can attack the science all you want and make up ten different (and contradictory) explanations for why it's not really getting warmer / not really drying out / not really seeing more rain etc.  But even if there are people out there who don't understand the science (and there are a lot of them) they can look out their windows and see their coastlines disappearing, their mountains losing their snow earlier and earlier, their forests burning, their lakes drying out and their crops withering.  And telling people like that "you're imagining things, you liberal Greta-worshiping idiot!" isn't going to get them very far.

[brenthutch 444]

"Drying out AND seeing more rain"

Just let that marinate for a bit.

Coastlines disappearing?  How about GROWING?

https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3111

If your theory predicts head or tails in a coin toss, it is not much of a theory.

Edited February 15, 2020 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,836]

  On 2/15/2020 at 6:47 PM, brenthutch said:

"Drying out AND seeing more rain"

Just let that marinate for a bit.

Coastlines disappearing?  How about GROWING?

https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3111

If your theory predicts head or tails in a coin toss, it is not much of a theory.

Anyone can look back down the street at what is behind them, and you are great at that, or up ahead at what seems to be coming, which doesn't seem your strong suit. But the real trick is seeing not just up the street but around the corner, too.

When I say you need to get out more it's because when you chant USA! USA! USA! over the fracking boom, to my ear, it reveals a very narrow, isolationist and nationalist world view. One thing I really enjoy about how we live our lives these day's is the constant interaction with people from around the world. We get to see how they see things changing rather than just keeping a log of the date our own snow melts each year.

Not surprisingly, they love their countries too, just not in the zero sum way we often do.

[brenthutch 444]

No my position on fracking is more comprehensive than just the 100 year supply of cheap, reliable, clean, energy.  I look at the geopolitics as well and how our energy boom benefits the global community.  No longer does OPEC or Russia set world energy prices, it is the United States.  Putin sure doesn't like fracking.https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/russias-putin-says-shale-oil-technologies-are-barbaric.html

"Natural gas prices have fallen in Europe because of hydraulic fracturing of shale in the U.S., said Thorsten Herdan, a director general for energy policy at the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy. And that will help Germany...…… we are profiting from the shale revolution right now in the U.S. as the price of gas is going down dramatically in Europe. So that’s also some sort of helping each other."

So as you can see, it is much more than USA, USA.

[gowlerk 2,251]

  On 2/15/2020 at 7:42 PM, brenthutch said:

No my position on fracking is more comprehensive than just the 100 year supply of cheap, reliable, clean, energy.  I look at the geopolitics as well and how our energy boom benefits the global community.  No longer does OPEC or Russia set world energy prices, it is the United States.  Putin sure doesn't like fracking.https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/russias-putin-says-shale-oil-technologies-are-barbaric.html

"Natural gas prices have fallen in Europe because of hydraulic fracturing of shale in the U.S., said Thorsten Herdan, a director general for energy policy at the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy. And that will help Germany...…… we are profiting from the shale revolution right now in the U.S. as the price of gas is going down dramatically in Europe. So that’s also some sort of helping each other."

So as you can see, it is much more than USA, USA.

The fracking revolution has completely stood the direction of the world's economy on it's head. It is the reason the USA was able to recover from the near disaster of the 2008 crash. It is causing the House of Saud to be constantly looking over it's shoulder. And it absolutely has thrown a wrench into Putin's plans.

[JoeWeber 2,836]

  On 2/15/2020 at 7:42 PM, brenthutch said:

No my position on fracking is more comprehensive than just the 100 year supply of cheap, reliable, clean, energy.  I look at the geopolitics as well and how our energy boom benefits the global community.  No longer does OPEC or Russia set world energy prices, it is the United States.  Putin sure doesn't like fracking.https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/russias-putin-says-shale-oil-technologies-are-barbaric.html

"Natural gas prices have fallen in Europe because of hydraulic fracturing of shale in the U.S., said Thorsten Herdan, a director general for energy policy at the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy. And that will help Germany...…… we are profiting from the shale revolution right now in the U.S. as the price of gas is going down dramatically in Europe. So that’s also some sort of helping each other."

So as you can see, it is much more than USA, USA.

I think you absolutely see it as USA! USA! USA!. I was making no argument for or against fracking. I simply see it as revealing that you extoll the effects like a High School cheer. In any case, as I asked previously, economics and climate change aside, do you see any downsides to fracking?