If you were in that courtroom with Moussaoui, what would you do?

[Newbie 0]

Man i seriously don't think i'd be able to restrain myself from trying to smack him in the face, and i'm generally not in favour of violence so i'm somewhat disturbed by my anger towards him as i try to hate no one, but the way he is reacting to the evidence being played out - smiling as the court is shown burnt bodies, shouting "Burn all Pentagon next time" and so forth, i think if i were a juror i would have a hard time stopping myself leaping over the rail and taking all that shit.

Maybe it's because i saw the 9/11 documentary by the French brothers last night for the first time in it's entireity, but i seriously want to strangle that motherfucker right now.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[rehmwa 2]

His crimes are what matter to a juror. Innocent or guilty, that's all.

If his attitude affects your ability to be juror in any way other than assessing his innocence or guilt, then you shouldn't be a juror. We're all adults here, being a juror is an important role to play as a citizen, rage (righteous or not) is a juvenile response for-a-juror.

That's not a slam on you - rage as a spectator is a perfectly acceptable response to the guy's attitude.

Uncontrollable rage ("I don't think I can controll myself from jumping the rail and attacking") is a different problem altogether. If he deserves to die, then society should determine that and he should be removed in a cold manner like you'd remove a piece of skin cancer. He doesn't deserve any passion at all during this process.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

Lets see we got one guy were pointing the finger at and no one else. I can see why there would be a lot of anger towards him but is it justifiable anger? Or is he the escape goat for all the people who are still out there.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Nightingale 0]

Well said. I don't support capital punishment, but I agree with the rest of what you said. The defendant's behavior in the courtroom should not affect the jurors' evaluation of the evidence. They need to draw a logical conclusion, not an emotional one.

[Newbie 0]

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His crimes are what matter to a juror. Innocent or guilty, that's all.

If his attitude affects your ability to be juror in any way other than assessing his innocence or guilt, then you shouldn't be a juror. We're all adults here, being a juror is an important role to play as a citizen, rage (righteous or not) is a juvenile response for-a-juror.

That's not a slam on you - rage as a spectator is a perfectly acceptable response to the guy's attitude.

Uncontrollable rage ("I don't think I can controll myself from jumping the rail and attacking") is a different problem altogether. If he deserves to die, then society should determine that and he should be removed in a cold manner like you'd remove a piece of skin cancer. He doesn't deserve any passion at all during this process.

yep you are absolutely right. I think being on that jury, having to listen to the evidence at hand, seeing his reaction AND on top of all that remaining impartial to the emotion and just going on the facts must be one of the hardest things to experience and go through.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[tbrown 26]

I have serious doubts about the guy's sanity. If he is schizophrenic, and there may very well be convincing evidence of that presented, then the things he's saying have to be taken as the ravings of crazy person. By no means pleasant, and most certainly offensive.

Ever since he was arrested, the guy's behavior and everything he's said have been wildly erratic. He sounds to me like one of these people you see on a street corner having a heated argument with themselves.

I'm not apologizing for him or defending him. I just think his cheese done slipped off his cracker.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[shropshire 0]

From what I've seen on the news.... he's not the full ticket... Is that not apparent on your news?


[whoops, soory Tom, just saw your post]

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SpeedRacer 1]

Ever see the movie Pink Flamingos??

Towards the end there's a line by Divine: "You have been convicted of Extreme Assholism!!"


Yep, Moussaui is pretty f*&kin twisted.

Speed Racer
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[ExAFO 0]

I'd force-feed him pork and gin, then put him into a grave filled with freshly slaughered pigs, and shoot him in the belly, so he can slowly bleed to death knowing that he would be denied his 72 virgins.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I have serious doubts about the guy's sanity.

That may be the case. He certainly is trying his damndest to get the death penalty in spite of his attorneys. The problem is, we're evaluating his state of mind as Westerners. Maybe we should analyze him more from the point of view of "how would a WW2 Japanese Kamikaze behave if he survived his 'final mission' & was captured?" Remember, under the Bushido code, it was a disgrace to be captured alive rather than killed in battle. I'm thinking maybe he has a Kamikaze-like "survivor's remorse" - all his comrades "completed their missions" and are now martyrs, yet he survived, and is disgraced by his survival and captivity. So, he must effect his own death in as grandiose a fashion as possible to erase the stain of dishonor. Something like that.
I imagine in his own mind the worst punishment he could suffer is to be forced to rot in an American prison for the next 50 years.

[stoneycase 0]

i'd probably slip the guy a valium. i think he needs it.

personally, although i could give a shit less about the guy in general, i think he's making himself out to be more important than he really was because he wants that "martyr" label. it's his purpose for everything.

so yeah, i'd slip him a valium....maybe a lude.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[dmetz 0]

Very good point.

This guy wants to die for his cause more than anything. I say tie him up in a public courtyard somewhere, (ooo, maybe a "Roaming display") so all us "filthy Americans" can come and throw vegetables at him for the next 50 years. I think that just might be the most terrible and humiliating punishment he could imagine.

_________________________________________

"If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?"

[freethefly 6]

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i'd probably slip the guy a valium. i think he needs it.

personally, although i could give a shit less about the guy in general, i think he's making himself out to be more important than he really was because he wants that "martyr" label. it's his purpose for everything.

so yeah, i'd slip him a valium....maybe a lude.

I think that is the general thought on this nutcase. Even Bin Laden and his insane group have tried to distance themselves from him. You got to be one seriously whacked out lunatic if a group of suicide bombers don't want to associate with you. He has a grand vision of being a martyr if put to death. Sideline his vision and give him life. Hell, even if put to death, I believe his death would go off with virtually no notice in the muslim world. He isn't even a small fish, just a nutcase basking in the limelight for a spell.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[wmw999 2,447]

More than anything he seems to be wanting an audience. He's getting one. I too think he's not playing with a full deck (and it's regularly mentioned on the news).

So if I were in the courtroom, I'd leave, depriving him of an audience member. If I knew that my leaving would give him a new, more eager audience member, I'd probably stay and read or sleep.

I don't really think he's going to provide insights into any mind but his own, so there's not a lot of learning there. I hope he settles into the obscurity he so richly deserves.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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Well said. I don't support capital punishment, but I agree with the rest of what you said. The defendant's behavior in the courtroom should not affect the jurors' evaluation of the evidence. They need to draw a logical conclusion, not an emotional one.

But since capital punishment is a potential result here, then you aren't able to be objective and logical. Don't you see the problem? You also can't let personal politics come into play. Regardless of whether you agree with the penalty for a guilty verdict, you still have to be logical in drawing your conclusion for your verdict.

Your position on the death penalty MUST be a completely separate effort on your part as a juror. It also cannot affect you as a juror either way. Hedging a guilty verdict because the death penalty is 'personally' distasteful to you is equally as bad as improperly pushing a guilty verdict because one would want to see someone 'fry'. Both are morally wrong in a juror's behavior - and either action should draw your contempt.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SpeedRacer 1]

Hey is it possible that Moussaui was considered too mentally unstable by the other terrorists to be trusted in the attacks, and that was why he was excluded from them?

Speed Racer
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[rehmwa 2]

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Hey is it possible that Moussaui was considered too mentally unstable by the other terrorists to be trusted in the attacks, and that was why he was excluded from them?

Actually, it was his big shiny nose. The other terrorists never let him play with them in the terror games.

But he'll show 'em. he'll show 'em good.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

That is exactly the reason why we have two different phases of a death penalty trial. The guilt phase and the penalty phase. Jurors do not have to consider that the person might be executed when they agree on a verdict, because if jurors had no option, if guilty = death, many people would be tempted to hege the verdict to not guilty because they don't want someone's death on their own conscience.

Regardless of my personal feelings on the death penalty, in Moussaoui's case, I'd recommend life, because he WANTS to die. If you want something, and society gives it to you, that's not a punishment. We make him a martyr and potentially set ourselves up for more attacks. If we throw him in a jail cell away from reporters and cameras, he'll simply be forgotten, which seems to be his greatest fear.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'd recommend life, because he WANTS to die.....If we throw him in a jail cell ..., which seems to be his greatest fear.

Again, it has nothing to do with him, only about what penalty protects us from potential future crimes by him. If that's life in prison, so be it. If that's death, so be it.

It's not about revenge, it's not about politics, it's not about punishment, it's not about closure. It's about how to keep an individual that has proven he doesn't play by the rules from hurting society more in the future. (as such, your comment about Moussaoui's desires matter not a whit - but your comment about escalation if he becomes a martyr should be seriously considered in the penalty phase).

I don't care a damn about Moussaoui's desires or his "greatest fears". You can't make it personal at all. That's what's missing (IMO) in your positions. You still want to somehow make it personal (either to the criminal or the victims). In this case, to 'punish' the criminal - what's different in that position from the 'revenge' statements by the anti CP people against the CP people? We don't punish the criminal to "teach them good", we penalize the criminal for the sole purpose of protecting society. If you make it personal in any way, that road leads to failure of real justice.

Nice post.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

If it was strictly about protecting society from him and not about him at all, we wouldn't have a penalty phase where families of accused and victims are allowed to make emotional statements. The structure of the process itself seems to counter your argument.

[rehmwa 2]

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If it was strictly about protecting society from him and not about him at all, we wouldn't have a penalty phase where families of accused and victims are allowed to make emotional statements. The structure of the process itself seems to counter your argument.

Nope, it's my 'position' that this part of the system is flawed. I think allowing the families to make emotional statements is a terrible thing to allow. It's a complete waste of time and energy for the emotionally retarded to vent their outrage - there are already victims, they have to deal with it no matter what. The penalties should be standardized and based on the committed actions and potential for future repeats only.

I also think a dying statement by a criminal prior to execution is stupid.

If it's about closure, let them see each other OUTSIDE the formal penalty process. And have ZERO input to the actual penalty But this isn't about justice. It's about closure, or it's about publicity.

You are a pleasure to correspond in SC. No petty little attacks or snipes. I wish they were all like this.

Edit: Look I do understand about tempering or escalating punishment by being affected by mercy vs outrage, and that it will be a normal part of the process and cause terrible inconsistencies in punishment of people committing the same crimes, etc. I do understand the justice must be SHOW for the people so examples can be made in terms of deterrent, etc. I just think that the balance is WAY out of wack in how much law is based on subjective 'circumstance', environment, and mental motivations. The weighting should be about 5% that stuff and 95% what the actual acts were. We are more like 80/20 than my position that we should be more 5/95.

Very simple - we can't control thought. all we can do is react to bad behavior. justice should be defined accordingly

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[stoneycase 0]

yeah...i agree. it would be nice to give him life and let him rot.

the only sad thing, imo, is that we're parading around in that courtroom as if we have a pilot from flight 93 on trial.

when in reality, imo, we've got the freaking janitor, all the pilots are dead already.

kind of reminds of the Scorpio episode of the Simpsons. instead of prosecuting Hank Scorpio, we're trying Homer Simpson and calling him a "mastermind".

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[Nightingale 0]

I think with regards to the death penalty, there is really no way to completely remove human emotion and conscience from the jurors, and it's that humanity that plays a large part in the unequal application of capital punishment. I don't think it's something that can ever be applied completely fairly and without emotion. It's the nature of capital punishment itself that inserts flaws in the system.

[rehmwa 2]

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we're trying Homer Simpson and calling him a "mastermind".

Well, there's Hammock Town, Hammock Warehouse, The Hammock Store, heck there's quite a few down in the Hammock District.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tbrown 26]

Regardless of my personal feelings on the death penalty, in Moussaoui's case, I'd recommend life, because he WANTS to die. If you want something, and society gives it to you, that's not a punishment. We make him a martyr and potentially set ourselves up for more attacks. If we throw him in a jail cell away from reporters and cameras, he'll simply be forgotten, which seems to be his greatest fear.