Jarheads shoot women and children

[briguy 0]

Accusation

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[Darius11 12]

Quote

US marines lose Iraq command role
Three US marines from a unit being investigated over the killing of 15 Iraqi civilians have been stripped of their commands and reassigned.
Officials are probing whether US troops deliberately killed civilians after a roadside bomb attack on their unit.

A marine spokesman said the decision was taken "due to lack of confidence in their leadership abilities".

The three marines were named as Lt Col Jeffrey Chessani, Capt Lucas McConnell and Capt James Kimber.

All three were members of the US 3rd Marine battalion, which was on duty in Haditha on 19 November when the killings of the Iraqi civilians is said to have taken place.

Lt Col Chessani was the battalion's overall commander.

There was no immediate word on why the three men were singled out and reassigned, nor whether they were likely to face charges over the incident.


DEATH IN HADITHA
November 2005: Initial US military report
One US marine killed in roadside bomb, two injured
Explosion also kills 15 Iraqi civilians
Eight insurgents killed in fire-fight following blast
January 2005: US military preliminary investigation
One US marine killed in roadside bomb, two injured
Fifteen civilians accidentally killed by US fire amid battle with insurgents
March 2006: US military begins criminal investigation


"There was no one justification for the move," said Lt Lawton King, a marine spokesman.
"The decision was made independently of the investigation... [and] was based on the performance of the commanding officers over the entire deployment."

Residents in Haditha said US troops went on a violent rampage after the roadside bomb attack killed a marine while on a routine patrol.

At least seven women and three children are thought to have been among those killed.

A growing outcry over the incident prompted US authorities to send military investigators to Haditha to investigate the reports.

They will decide if the civilians died in crossfire or were targeted deliberately in a potential war crime.

The US news magazine Time, which highlighted the case, suggested there was evidence US troops had entered Iraqi homes and shot dead some of those inside.

Story from BBC

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[bob.dino 1]

Is "jarhead" standard slang for US Marines?

[D22369 0]

Is "jarhead" standard slang for US Marines?
***`

it is, but if it comes from a civilian without the balls to enlist... its an insult - (I aint pointing fingers at you, merely answering your question)

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Guest]

We've seen these kinds of accusations made before, and they've turned out to be bogus (and don't bother mentioning Abu Graib in this context - it doesn't fit. This is combat).

Maybe they did it - maybe they didn't. Let's see what findings the investigation makes.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,078]

>We've seen these kinds of accusations made before, and they've turned out to be bogus.

Indeed. Like this one:

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March 20, 2006 — Dayton Daily News

Iraqi family frustrated as U.S. soldier avoids trial
Sergeant who killed child, wounded mother thought they were armed
By Russell Carollo and Larry Kaplow

An Army sergeant who killed a 13-year-old Iraqi girl and wounded her mother and sister avoided court-martial by leaving the service days before investigators began interviewing family members who witnessed the shooting.

. . . .

Sgt. Jeffrey D. Waruch, 28, who joined the Army in 1997 and was stationed at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii, left the military Jan. 27 under a "voluntary discharge for completion of service obligation," according to Army officials.

Since Waruch did not retire and has no obligation to serve in the Reserves, he cannot be court-martialed, Army officials said. Waruch also cannot be prosecuted by Iraqis, since soldiers serving there are immune from civil and criminal laws.

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Since there was no trial/hearing/court martial, he must be innocent.

[Darius11 12]

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it doesn't fit. This is combat

Let’s clarify that a bit.


This is combat that we brought upon them they did not ask for our help. We invaded them.
So saying it’s combat to make it any less of a tragedy is not really a good excuse. When you review the facts over and over again all the fingers of blame should rightfully be pointed at the people who supported, and started this war.

As to what Billvon posted:
I never knew Honor meant runaway from the bad things you have done and dodge responsibility.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jumperboy357 0]

You know it's pretty easy to be an armchair quarterback when it's not your life on the line. Thousands of soldiers have already been killed and many more thousands have been wounded. As a soldier you never want to see innocent women and children killed or injured. Does it happen? Maybe. Perhaps it is also a spinoff from a liberal press that doesn't want to show anything good that maybe be happening there. But you also have to look at it from the soldiers' point of view. If you have seen many of your comrades killed you might find yourself in more of a self preservation mode. Things that might not have made you jumpy in the beginning might do so now. If you want to lamb baste an administration feel free but leave the soldiers that are trying to make a difference in this world alone and pray for their safety. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't be able to do this.

[billvon 3,078]

>Perhaps it is also a spinoff from a liberal press that doesn't want
>to show anything good that maybe be happening there.

For a bit of education on why the 'liberal press' doesn't print a lot of good news:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OYPuO-E5n-0

>If you have seen many of your comrades killed you might find
>yourself in more of a self preservation mode.

That may well be true; they may end up (for example) shooting innocent people as a reaction to such experiences. But if that's happening with any regularity, we have to get those soldiers out of there _before_ they do something they might regret for the rest of their lives.

[penniless 0]

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If you want to lamb baste an administration feel free but leave the soldiers that are trying to make a difference in this world alone and pray for their safety. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't be able to do this.

Well, maybe that's the trouble. It seems that having the world's best military has turned us into the world's greatest bully. Don't see Luxemberg or Andorra starting many wars or invading many sovereign nations these days.

[Zipp0 1]

I think the war in Iraq was a huge mistake, and as a veteran of the first war against Iraq, I feel just fine about opposing this one.

That being said, if I was on the ground there now as a soldier, I would shoot anything that moved in my direction, and feel very little remorse.

The men on the ground shouldn't have to put themselves at greater risk because of the poor decisions of our chickenhawk leaders.

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Darius11 12]

For some reason if you ever say anything against the war I here the same violin yellow ribbon BS. It reminds me of the song in team America “what would you do”

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When you review the facts over and over again all the fingers of blame should rightfully be pointed at the people who supported, and started this war.

Do you disagree with what was said above? I'll even add that the people who supported and started this war are also responsible for the death and injury of our own troops.


As to what Billvon posted. I stand by my statement. If you killed murdered an inocent life, a child, and you runaway so your punk ass doesn’t spend a day in jail then you have no honor.

As for being an armchair quarter back remark.
I never knew no one was allowed to criticize what our government does. I also don’t remember reading in the constitution that our solders were allowed to do as the wish.

I respect the men and woman of the armed forces, but refuse to blind my self to the few bad apples that do commit crimes, torture, and murder the inocent.
As for your remark that they are the reason I can do this (witch I think you are specking of free speech) I think you have missed the point. Unless Sadam and the inocent Iraqis that have been killed were going to take away my freedom of speech then you are simply wrong. The only people currently who are trying to take away the freedom of speech are the ones who call anyone who does not agree with there unjust cause a traitor.

Sorry but there is no good reason to fight this war.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Skyrad 0]

Oh dear

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Hawkins121 0]

There is no way to find out the whole story... So some women and children were killed.... What were they doing? Were they somewhere they werent supposed to be? Were they in a house where 3-4 insurgents ran in and held up? Sorry but if i'm the leader of that patrol, that building is getting blown up... Women and children or not... Maybe its because i'm a veteran or maybe its because i'm an asshole but if I have to kill 1 or 2 or 10 innocent people to make sure my guys dont get hurt then that is what is going to happen.

[jumpingjimmy 0]

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I think the war in Iraq was a huge mistake, and as a veteran of the first war against Iraq, I feel just fine about opposing this one.

That being said, if I was on the ground there now as a soldier, I would shoot anything that moved in my direction, and feel very little remorse.

The men on the ground shouldn't have to put themselves at greater risk because of the poor decisions of our chickenhawk leaders.

Zipp0

you know, i applaud posts like this !!!

there are less and less people supporting Americas invasion if iraq in this world, more and more people see it for what it really is, BUT you can't really blame the soldiers on the ground, it's the people who have put them in that situation that are to blame

i know people won't like what i'm about to say next, but it is truly what i feel....

on 9/11 about 3000 people died yeah? in the great big scheme of things thats not a massively big deal. it's a big deal to those directly involved i'll grant that, but its only a couple of thousand or so... how many people died in Rhwanda? how many people die in the great Indian flood planes floods each year? how many people have been killed by starvation due to American sanctions around the world? many many more thousands than 9/11

so, just how much was Iraq down to the (unwinnable) war on terror, and how much is it down to Oil ? Are Americas leaders going to let thousands more of their people (soldiers) die to fight an unwinnable war just becasue a few thousand died...or are they going to let the $$$$$$$$$$$$ dictate as it always does and use the war on terror as a smoke screen to get to the Oil ?

if America's leaders REALLY cared about lives, would Monsanto be able to do the deals they do all around the world in third world countries? Would they have stopped the genocide in Rhwanda? you tell me?

[Hawkins121 0]

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[jumpingjimmy 0]

dont you think that the "kill them all" attitude is going to get us all killed in WWIII though?

[Hawkins121 0]

Quote

Quote

I think the war in Iraq was a huge mistake, and as a veteran of the first war against Iraq, I feel just fine about opposing this one.

That being said, if I was on the ground there now as a soldier, I would shoot anything that moved in my direction, and feel very little remorse.

The men on the ground shouldn't have to put themselves at greater risk because of the poor decisions of our chickenhawk leaders.

Zipp0

you know, i applaud posts like this !!!

there are less and less people supporting Americas invasion if iraq in this world, more and more people see it for what it really is, BUT you can't really blame the soldiers on the ground, it's the people who have put them in that situation that are to blame

i know people won't like what i'm about to say next, but it is truly what i feel....

on 9/11 about 3000 people died yeah? in the great big scheme of things thats not a massively big deal. it's a big deal to those directly involved i'll grant that, but its only a couple of thousand or so... how many people died in Rhwanda? how many people die in the great Indian flood planes floods each year? how many people have been killed by starvation due to American sanctions around the world? many many more thousands than 9/11

so, just how much was Iraq down to the (unwinnable) war on terror, and how much is it down to Oil ? Are Americas leaders going to let thousands more of their people (soldiers) die to fight an unwinnable war just becasue a few thousand died...or are they going to let the $$$$$$$$$$$$ dictate as it always does and use the war on terror as a smoke screen to get to the Oil ?

if America's leaders REALLY cared about lives, would Monsanto be able to do the deals they do all around the world in third world countries? Would they have stopped the genocide in Rhwanda? you tell me?

We do care about lives... Our lives... We arent the world police..... We were attacked... 3000 americans died.... It was time to prevent that from happening again... Hunt down every one of them... The best way to flush them out is to bring the fight to them... Give them their Jihad. They love it... Let them attack trained soldiers rather than plan their next attack on people working in office buildings.

Who cares about Rhwanda??? Why even bring that up?
You couldnt be an american if you are talking like that... So 3000 americans is no big deal? Its a bigger deal to me than a million Rhwandans. Or any other nation for that matter... I'm sure most americans feel the same... I'm just not afraid to admit it...

[billvon 3,078]

>We arent the world police....

Then we shouldn't be in Iraq.

>We were attacked... 3000 americans died.... It was time to prevent
> that from happening again... Hunt down every one of them...

We were doing that, at least before we went into Iraq. Don't confuse arabs with terrorists; they are really not the same. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 - even if most people there are arabs.

>Let them attack trained soldiers rather than plan their next attack
>on people working in office buildings.

I don't buy the US soldier as bullet sponge theory. Our military is intended to protect the US, not to 'soak up' terrorist attacks. We should not spend their lives in such a meaningless way.

>So 3000 americans is no big deal? Its a bigger deal to me than a
>million Rhwandans.

Both are very big deals. So are tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis. So are 2500 US soldiers.

>I'm sure most americans feel the same...

Fortunately, most americans are not as uncaring. That's why we give out billions in aid each year to keep people in third world countries alive. (Heck, that's one of the revised reasons that right wingers gave for the Iraq invasion - to stop Saddam's cruel treatment of his people.)

[Hawkins121 0]

They dont soak up terrorist attacks... They keep the terrorists busy... They give them their holy war... It is a side effect of our troops being in the region... Afganistan too.. They plan attacks on trained soldiers rather than unarmed citizens. Its that simple Dr.

Its not really a theory.


Sure the average american Joe will feel bad for the people in whatever random third world country you want to mention...

He might even give 20 cents a day to make sure that little Zaghawa from Somalia gets his vaccinations to make sure he grows up strong so he can fire his AK-47 out of the back of a pickup truck.


Show that same american Joe pictures of 911 and watch how furious he gets. Little Zaghawa and his pickup truck dont mean as much anymore.

[billvon 3,078]

>They dont soak up terrorist attacks... They keep the terrorists busy...
> They give them their holy war...

?? The war in Iraq is against local insurgents, not international terrorists.

>Show that same american Joe pictures of 911 and watch how
>furious he gets. Little Zaghawa and his pickup truck dont mean as
>much anymore.

Show him pictures of innocent Iraqi kids with their faces and arms blown off and they will feel the same way. Except this time they are part of the country that's blowing his arms off.

[Hawkins121 0]

Collateral damage sucks.

[billvon 3,078]

>Collateral damage sucks.

So does some intended damage - as the title of this thread suggests.

[jumpingjimmy 0]

i'm not anti-american troops, they are certainly doing a good job in a difficult situation, it's the leaders of the troops (american and english together) that have got it wrong

a soldier doesn't have a say where he goes, it's the politicians who have made bad situations worse

[Hawkins121 0]

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>Collateral damage sucks.

So does some intended damage - as the title of this thread suggests.

Yes it does...

We will never know the whole story... If something more comes out about the incident I hope it is posted. I'm sure these guys just didnt say "Fuck it" and shoot down a bunch of kids for no reason... See my above post.