What does sacrifice mean to you?

[Gawain 0]

Some dufus brought it up in the last "recovery update" thread I posted in the Bonfire. He was babbling on about something about what is sacrifice. He was basically saying that my sacrifice was not my leg, but my freedom when I enlisted (As an active duty soldier, I don't have the same rights as a civilian). I see the point, but still think it misses the target.

Anyway, no one seems willing to bring it up, so I will.

Well, I know what my sacrifice has been, and I will not attempt to quantify it with those that would want to spar on that issue alone. We'll leave it at that.

Having said that, what does it mean to you?

While you think about it, I'll include this quote from Sen. John McCain:

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It has become a cliche to say that American soldiers take the greatest risks in our name and make the ultimate sacrifices for our country. But take a minute and think about it. When most of us go to work, a tough day on the job means a missed meeting or too many calls, maybe a difficult colleague or a terrible commute. When our men and women in uniform have a rough day, it can mean an exploded Humvee, the death of a dear friend, the loss of a limb, or another grievous wound.

Other than that. Have a nice day and stay tuned in Bonfire for other updates. Good things are happening and as I told a friend, they may have got my leg, but I will walk again. I do not think their future looks so bright.

Blue skies.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Lindsey 0]

I convince myself that I've sacrificed a lot, but in reality I've never sacrificed anything important. Hard work does not equal sacrifice....not in a meaningful way.

My hat's off to you.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[mnealtx 0]

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I convince myself that I've sacrificed a lot, but in reality I've never sacrificed anything important. Hard work does not equal sacrifice....not in a meaningful way.

My hat's off to you.

linz

Well said!!

To me, sacrifice is giving up something of value to you for the sake of another. I think everyone makes sacrifices in one way or another.

Then, there are those like Max, who has sacrificed far more than most of us can even understand and still keep on keeping on. Those are the people that inspire us to give more and do more for people, just by their examples.

Max - in my eyes, you truly ARE a hero.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Michele 1]

For me, a sacrifice is giving up something I need/want/cherish so that others will benefit.

Max, you rock. You continue to amaze me, and remind me of the strength of the human spirit. Thanks for all you've done, and all you'll do, and keep showing us the real definition of strength and heart.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Amazon 7]

For me... I think it means the same..... and in this society there are those who are giving of their time.. their energy.. and some of them their lives...that is sacrifice.


On the other hand there are those wo are takers.. and unwilling to sacrifice ANYTHING.....for ANYTHING or ANYONE.

We have FAR too many of the latter and damn too few of the former.

[Icon134 0]

I don't think I can put into words effectively what sacrifice means to me... but I will try...

I think honest to goodness sacrifice is living each day in the service of others... i.e. doing things for others that help them not hurt them... even if it hurts you...

I don't know... I'm not very good at explaining this aspect of life...

I think our actions speak louder then any words we can use in this regard.

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Gawain 0]

You bring up an interesting point, in that you "qualify" it without trying to "quantify" it.

I, for one, believe that even the "evil" politicians in Washington DC make a sacrifice, in that they have sacrificed their privacy to a degree. One belligerent column in a newspaper can have cameras and microphones following someone for weeks. Was this their intent when they ran for office...I doubt it. But it does fall within the idea you point out.

That said, I think most actions define it better. I was curious what anyone cared to voice out.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Erroll 80]

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For me, a sacrifice is giving up something I need/want/cherish so that others will benefit.

I think Michele summed it up perfectly.

Max, I have only the greatest of respect for you. Your courage, spirit and attitude is a real inspiration. I have to ask though: Who, in your opinion, really benefited from your sacrifice?

PS. Before I get jumped on by the usual suspects:- I spent 18 years on active and non-active reserve and I have several active-duty tours under my belt.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Max I think you and I as well as many Veterans KNOW the meaning of sacrifice.

For all those who don't have that background to help form their belief of what sacrifice is I will try and sum it up for you.

Sacrifice is doing something not for yourself but for your country, and even for those who aren't Americans.

Sacrifice is risking all that you love or all that you will love in the future for a just cause.

Sacrifice is risking the loss of life or limb in the pursuit of freedom for all.

Sacrifice is knowing there are those waiting to kill you and in light of that, still being first man through the door so your buddies won't have to die in your place.

Sacrifice is jumping on a grenade so others will still be able to go home.

Sacrifice is your family having to do without substance, or the company of their loved one because he has died.


Sacrifice is coming home injured badly, to listen to the shit spewing out of the mouths of those who despise everything you stand for.

[bozo 0]

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Max I think you and I as well as many Veterans KNOW the meaning of sacrifice.

For all those who don't have that background to help form their belief of what sacrifice is I will try and sum it up for you.

Sacrifice is doing something not for yourself but for your country, and even for those who aren't Americans..

I gave up my youth . I gave up my first wife and family, who couldnt deal with the demons. I gave up 35 years of restful sleep.
I would do it again in a heartbeat ,if my country asked me.

Max gave up so much ....but he earned more than can ever be repayed. He has my admiration.
Anyone that questions duty, honor , country I have pity for. We have to have heroes.....we have to have goals.....it makes us who we are.

bozo

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[metalslug 36]

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Some dufus brought it up in the last "recovery update" thread I posted in the Bonfire. He was babbling on about something about what is sacrifice. He was basically saying that my sacrifice was not my leg, but my freedom when I enlisted (As an active duty soldier, I don't have the same rights as a civilian). I see the point, but still think it misses the target.

I'm not even American and I can still acknowledge your fine service.
I certainly do not mean to trivialize your loss or injury, but...
Is sacrifice only considered sacrifice after a person has endured a particular degree of harm or misfortune?

warpeskydiver commented:

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Sacrifice is risking the loss of life or limb in the pursuit of freedom for all.

In your opinion; have the members of your unit who were not injured sacrificed less than you?
Did they risk less?

warpedskydiver also commented:

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Sacrifice is jumping on a grenade so others will still be able to go home.

In the opinion of forum members; has a serving soldier who knowingly dives on a grenade sacrificed more than one who didn't even see the grenade coming? Did his sacrifice begin when he served his country by placing himself in harms way?

Heal fast, friend.

[warpedskydiver 0]

warpedskydiver also commented:

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Sacrifice is jumping on a grenade so others will still be able to go home.

In the opinion of forum members; has a serving soldier who knowingly dives on a grenade sacrificed more than one who didn't even see the grenade coming? Did his sacrifice begin when he served his country by placing himself in harms way?

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I merely tried to give examples in the previous posts...

In answer to your question no, not every part of serving is a sacrifice ...doing your job isn't a sacrifice.

Doing something that goes against all your senses of self preservation qualifies.

In actuality sacrifice is very hard to explain unless you have witnessed it, or done it yourself.

(maybe that is why I cannot explain it fully)

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[metalslug 36]

The questions were aimed at Gawain really, but anyone is free to comment.
I wasn't trying to invalidate your examples of sacrifice, there are many who see sacrifice as being the same examples that you mentioned so they are not bad examples for most people.

However, we may want to distinguish between sacrifice and heroism, and determine whether risk on it's own can be seen as sacrifice, or whether sacrifice requires serious loss, death or injury.

A soldier diving on a grenade to save other members of his unit may posthumously receive the silver star (or other relevant award) for heroism but the soldier who didn't see it coming probably wont get such an award, but both made a sacrifice. Are all who sacrifice, heroes?
Do those who risk all and survive, sacrifice less than those who risk all and lose something? (warpedskydiver has already answered that he believes they do sacrifice less.)

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No 'mericans were harmed during the making of this post.

[Darius11 12]

A sacrifice is risking and or giving up something of value to you so you can help another without receiving or expecting any profit or thanks for your self. That’s is a sacrifice in it’s purest form.


Personally I have not sacrificed anything that is even worth mentioning in the company of people like your self who have sacrificed so much.

Thank you.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[warpedskydiver 0]

Do those who risk all and survive, sacrifice less than those who risk all and lose something? (warpedskydiver has already answered that he believes they do sacrifice less.)

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[matthewcline 0]

The meaning is different for me each and every day.
Each day I am faced with some challenge of sorts that can (and usually does) require a sacrifice by me.

Service men and women who serve their respective nation, sacrifice their personnal safety and risk their personnal well being EVERY day they serve or did serve. I do not think it should matter if they volunteered or where drafted, they sacrifice the same to me.

They do so knowing that a possabilty exists to make "the ultimate sacrifice".

The men and women who joined the service in the US after Sept. 11th in somes opinion may have risk more since they new they would join in a fight over seas.

I say that there are plenty who sacrifice ever day, even not in uniform, when they could choose an easier path.

Those who serve their country, community and church, with out aspirations of riches or fame are ones who sacrifice to me.

There are plenty of people who even serve there country out of uniform who deserve respect too. I do not think we should limit this to a "the military only sacrifices" issue.

When a Nation goes to war, it is the WHOLE Nation that goes, either in person or in spirit. Some body knows some one, either married, son, daughter, father, mother, aunt, uncle, grandfather or grandmother, who is in the war.

Do not ever think you did not truly sacrifice for others Max. You are a clear example of what most here would call "one who has sacrificed". The timing of your joining the Army, the service you given so far, the injury you sustained and the stress your family has endured is impossible to fully repay.

I am proud to be a member of the same Division your in becuase of you and your fellow Soldiers.

Yes, I do beleive you have sacrificed and need not worry what others think, including me. You protect the right to let me speak and the right to ignore me.

Thank You, to both you and your Wife! I know she has sacrificed too!

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[amy 0]

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Is sacrifice only considered sacrifice after a person has endured a particular degree of harm or misfortune?

Our servicemembers sacrifice enormous amounts every day, whether they are injured or not.

Missing 6 months (or more) of your young child's life to be overseas, missing out on opportunites to watch your relationship with your spouse (or other loved ones) grow, missing the chance to teach your teenager to drive, see them go to the prom, or go out on their first date. . .

All of the little pleasures in life that you and I take for granted when we are home with the people we love. That's a huge sacrifice.

Amy

[jumpingjimmy 0]

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He was babbling on about something about what is sacrifice. He was basically saying that my sacrifice was not my leg, but my freedom when I enlisted

you want to read my post again

you enlisted willingly to do something you wanted to do, not much of a sacrifice if you ask me. If you'd have not wanted to join the army and still joined JUST to serve your country and help others, that would have been a sacrifce in joining the army

yeah, you might have missed out on alot of freedom being in the army, but your freedom was secondry to what you wanted to do in life, and that was to be a soldier. If you wanted to be able to do the things civillians can do in life more than you wanted to be a soldier, i'm sure you'd have not enlisted yeah?

how many of your soldier friends are soldiers and didn't want to be soldiers?

a by product of you following your chosen career is that you don't have the freedom to do what civillians can do, but you knew that when you joined, and you joined to do exactly what you wanted to do.

let me ask you this.... before you went to Iraq, did you enjoy being a soldier? if you answer yes, how much of a sacrifice is somebody making by doing something they love doing?

[jumpingjimmy 0]

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Missing 6 months (or more) of your young child's life to be overseas, missing out on opportunites to watch your relationship with your spouse (or other loved ones) grow, missing the chance to teach your teenager to drive, see them go to the prom, or go out on their first date. . .

all while indulging yourself by doing what you want to do in life

If your family mean that much to you, you'd not do something that keeps you away from them. Doing a trade that keeps you away from them is your choice, nobody makes you do that... you choose to do something in life that you want to do, knowing full well that you'll miss out on all the things you've said, but those things are secondry to your desire to do what you want to do, if they were more important than being in the military, you'd not be in the military and you'd do something that enables you to be with your family

i don't have much sympathy for anybody who indulges themself in life by following their chosen career path and then moans that they are missing out on things by following their choses career path

its like hitting yourself on the head and then complaining that your getting hurt... stop hitting yourself on the head then !!!

[Lindsey 0]

I think you're assuming a lot about people in the military. How about the person who goes into military service because he/she feels an obligation toward his/her country? Being fulfilled in this obligation by no means negates the sacrifice that one makes.

I think that any person who willingly puts himself into harm's way for our sake deserves a lot more respect than those of us whose right to grumble he protects.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[jumpingjimmy 0]

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I think you're assuming a lot about people in the military. How about the person who goes into military service because he/she feels an obligation toward his/her country? Being fulfilled in this obligation by no means negates the sacrifice that one makes.

I think that any person who willingly puts himself into harm's way for our sake deserves a lot more respect than those of us whose right to grumble he protects.

linz

and what percentage of people in the military didn't join because they wanted to, but joined just to fulfil an obligation? not many i'd say !!!!

how many butchers open up a meat shop because they feel obligated to give their community good pieces of meat, while all the time they wantd to be lorry drivers?

[jkm2500 0]

The dictionary.com meaning of the word sacrifice is(using the definition appropriate):Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sacrifice

Now, just because someone voluntarily joins the military doesnt mean that they aren't making a sacrifice. According to the dictionary, they are indeed doing just that. Giving up their freedom, safety, life and limb for the sake of the "greater value", the greater good (for the people of the USA).

Now, that maybe idealistic, but that doesnt mean that it isnt true. In my opinion sacrifice is idealistic. We all make sacrifices to ourselves in our daily lives. Most do it in the context of "I'm not going to have that donut, I am trying to watch my weight". Few are willing to make a larger sacrifice of "I am going to run 5 miles a day to get in shape". Fewer still are willing to sacrifice 2-30 years of their lives in order that others can live in peace and harmony. So, volunteering does not relieve soldiers of their sacrifice, it endows them with it.

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[Icon134 0]

How is sacrifice by choice any less of a sacrifice... in fact I think it necessarily requires a choice.

A fireman that goes into a building on the off chance that he might save a life... but ends up giving his own... he's chosen that profession... he probably enjoys that profession but does that make his sacrifice less important to the people he does save or is trying to save?

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[billvon 2,989]

>If your family mean that much to you, you'd not do something that
>keeps you away from them.

If something else meant more to you than being with your family all the time, you might.

We all make value judgements about what's good to do and what's bad to do. One guy might decide to spend his days drinking beer and watching TV, or living on welfare while hanging out on a street corner. Another guy might decide to have a family and raise his children as best he can. Another might decide to serve his country in politics, or in the military, or in a civilian branch of the government like the CIA. All of them make their choices freely - but I admire the latter a lot more than I admire the former two. They have sacrificed a much easier life for something they believe in.

>its like hitting yourself on the head and then complaining that your
>getting hurt... stop hitting yourself on the head then !!!

Using your terminology, I am very glad that there are people willing to "hit themselves on the head" so that no one hits _you_ on the head. I suspect you are too - at least when it's not an argument on an internet board you're trying to win.

[Michele 1]

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all while indulging yourself by doing what you want to do in life

In this and several other posts, Jimmy, I'm left with the thought that you believe that a sacrifice must be something that there can be no by-product of pride or joy or sense of security in. Which means that firefighters, police, and others in community service, who take pride and find joy in, do.

In my world, you can both choose to do something which will create a sacrifice, be proud of what you do, and even enjoy it...and it's still a sacrifice.

I know who Gawain is. Personally. I've jumped with him, hung out with him, and knew his choices and reasoning behind joining the military. At no point did he do it unaware of the sacrifice he - and those around him - would make. He did it because of an overriding sense of living his beliefs; that people should be free, that this was a cause which is appropriate, and worth his efforts, hard work, and yes, sacrifice.

He put his money where his mouth was...and for that, I thank him with all my heart. Your questioning is made possible because of people like him, the world over. And he would be the first to defend your right to say it, even though your paltry attempts to negate his sacrifice must be positively awful for him to read (I assume.)

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~