Dick Lamm's "Plan to Destroy America."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Italians, Czechs, and Germans didn't speak a lot of english at home....

But a lot of them would have been taught English in school. For me the following languages were mandatory: English, French, Dutch and German. On top of that I elected to take Latin and Greek as many other in Holland have done. Funny enough that society in which most people speak at least 2 languages, society isn't falling apart and people aren't ranting about losing culture.

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I think people are playing a lot of games with numbers here and inflating/deflating them to fit their agendas. Before you shoot that up...

I agree, which makes it difficult. I understand that website used Census information. I would love to see otehr data, but a quick google search didn't really bring anything up (emphasis on quick).

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Exactly... which is why a lot of us want English made the national language... we're trying... but people keep calling us racists... strange.

I think you should have a national language...maybe even more than one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Here's a question: Do you think, then, that the multilingual is:

1 - Good intentions but bad results (Example of short term thinking)
2 - on purpose for some other, perhaps devious, or at least selfish reasons
3 - other

I think the answer would be 1 -- trying to accommodate a rapidly growing population in a short-sighted way, with bad results. As far as the selfish intentions go, I think politicians on both sides will exploit the situation no matter how it turns out -- the left with the entitlement vote, the Bush admin with its stand on the guest worker issue. I doubt the politicians willfully created an environment where immigrants are stifled by their own language, but if there are politicians that somehow benefit from the situation, chances are it won't change any time soon.

So #1 which quickly turned into #2 when the politicians saw it was a great lever.

Why, that's rather practical and consistent with human nature......

Hmmmmm, your theories intrigue me. I'd like to subscribe to your newletter.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trent 0]

Then perhaps you should be clear about what you think, Bill. Illegal immigrants: good/bad? Asking people to learn the language, by making it "official" if necessary: good/bad? Failure to integrate into society instead of trying to make it like "home": good/bad?

It sounds to me like your position is that nothing bad is going on. None of the issues I brought up actually exist. We'll be fine no matter what happens.

If that's what you're saying, and it does sound like it... I disagree.

By the way, you see the irony in all these protests today when countries like Mexico have some of the tightest immigration laws around? And we're the assholes for wanting less extreme laws on our books?

Oh, hello again!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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It sounds to me like your position is that nothing bad is going on. None of the issues I brought up actually exist. We'll be fine no matter what happens.

Some of the issues you raise do exist. The question becomes though what the severity is. We seem to be disagreeing about that mostly. Not quite sure how you go from there to "we'll be fine no matter what happens"? That seems to be mostly an emotion based statement. Could it be that some people don't think it is as bad as you think it is?

[Trent 0]

Oh I don't think the sky is falling... but I think it'll be easier to deal with it now while it's in the public eye and before we have 20 million illegals in the country.

Oh, hello again!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I thought we were talking about integration? To me, no effort should be made to integrate illegals, they should just be deported.

[billvon 3,072]

>Illegal immigrants: good/bad?

Immigrants: good. Illegal immigrants: bad. Why? Some reasons:

a) In general the rule of law is a good thng to support.
b) Makes it tougher to protect the US against foreign terrorists.

Some things that are NOT problems:

a) Illegal immigrants are dirty, filthy, lazy people who don't want to learn English and just want to steal from good US citizens.
b) They will 'pollute' our culture and destroy it.

>Asking people to learn the language . . .

Good. We do that now and it works.

>by making it "official" if necessary: good/bad?

Not necessary; see above.

>Failure to integrate into society instead of trying to make
>it like "home": good/bad?

Leading question; like asking "is it OK to send US troops to Iraq to torture and kill tens of thousands of innocent kids?"

It is good that people retain parts of their culture when they come over here. It is why we have pizza, tacos and margaritas. In other words, by immigrants trying to make it like home, they make the US a better place in the long run - and it BECOMES their home, just as it became ours.

We are a melting pot of all cultures. Like any melting pot, new cultures do not melt immediately; at first it looks like a bowl of odd chunky things that will never meld together. But with time, they do melt together - and the resultant mix is better than any of the separate chunks.

>It sounds to me like your position is that nothing bad is going on.

The 'bad' part of this issue is that people are coming in illegally. If we could get most of those same people to come here legally, that problem would go away. Set some very, very basic rules for people who want to come over and work, then let them come legally. Let them pay taxes like everyone else, sign up to work like anyone else, and do whatever they want with their money like anyone else.

>None of the issues I brought up actually exist. We'll be fine no
>matter what happens.

Never said that.

>By the way, you see the irony in all these protests today when
> countries like Mexico have some of the tightest immigration laws
> around? And we're the assholes for wanting less extreme laws on
> our books?

We're not assholes. But we could do a better job of managing the problem of illegal immigration. We should do a better job of letting people in who want to work, and a better job of keeping people out who want to commit crimes.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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hey Bill?, Pizza is an American invention

What a joke....


For one thing, the definitions of pizza are many and varied. Putting stuff on flat bread as a meal certainly goes back as far as ancient Rome. The word "pizza" itself appears just before 1000 AD, in the area between Naples and Rome, meaning "pie."

yes you are wrong if we are referring to what is recognized as pizza here in the US ...I wasn't speaking about pizza on pluto or in timbuktu.

as for pizza meaning "pie" thats probably not entirely true either

17th Century.

By the 17th Century, pizza had achieved a local popularity among visitors to Naples who would venture into the poorer sections to taste this peasant dish made by men called "pizzaioli."

There’s some doubt about the origins of pie in these various senses, but the consensus is that they do all come from the same source, the Latin word pica, which meant a magpie. Linnaeus borrowed the word for the genus of these noisy large birds and our European magpie, the one the Romans knew, now glories in the duplicated cognomen of Pica pica.

The old name for the bird in English is just pie. The prefix mag wasn’t added until the seventeenth century. It’s from the personal name Margaret, and there’s a dialect name maggot-pie which may come from the French name Margot la pie; why Margaret should have been attached to the bird in two languages I haven’t been able to find out. Perhaps it’s connected in some way with ancient superstitions about the magpie being a bird of ill omen. Or it might be from the old habit of adding personal names to those of birds, as in Jenny wren or Tom tit.

But the interesting thing is that the word pie for the bird is at least half a century older than the word pie for the dish. The first pies in Britain contained a mixture of meat and vegetables, what one writer has disdainfully called “stews in a pastry case” (still a fair description for some meat pies). One historian of the language has suggested that the food was named after the bird because the varied ingredients reminded people of the birds’ habit of collecting together all sorts of bits and pieces in their nests. Nobody’s been able to prove or disprove this thesis, and after all this time it’s unlikely anybody ever will.

[penniless 0]

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>Pizza is an American invention . . .

In a way that statement proves my point. Pizza is so american now that people actually think it was invented here. Someday people will think the same of tacos.

[\reply]

What about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece...

Chop Suey! English muffins!

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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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By the 17th Century, pizza had achieved a local popularity among visitors to Naples

Uhmm, that is directly from your post. Still want to claim it was invented in America?

Or you mean the round soggy ones that get delivered luke warm in a cardboard box are an American invention...well I think in that case you would be right...not sure I would be overly proud of that though....

[warpedskydiver 0]

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By the 17th Century, pizza had achieved a local popularity among visitors to Naples

Uhmm, that is directly from your post. Still want to claim it was invented in America?

Or you mean the round soggy ones that get delivered luke warm in a cardboard box are an American invention...well I think in that case you would be right...not sure I would be overly proud of that though....

oh I guess context is something alien to you

[kelpdiver 2]

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If that's really a serious question, go by Dongguan or Shenzhen some time and tell me if you honestly think that Chinese culture hasn't changed in the past 100 years. (Hint - Google 'largest shopping mall in the world.')

I don't have to Google anything... I've been there. I've seen that despite the modernization of late... there is still an identifiable culture that has remained similar for centuries. But, like I said before, the "culture" definition is something we can go back and forth all day. You know what I'm talking about, but you won't agree.

The difference between first generation Chinese immigrants and ABCs and long time Chinese Americans is pretty substantial. I'd expect it to be even more marked in Texas.

Take dating. Mainlander men tend towards the old ways where the woman is subservient. Mainlander women tend to keep with that. ABC girls, otoh, quickly decide this is ridiculous and many refuse to date within the race. As a result, the ABC boys change dramatically, perhaps too far towards the more sensitive side on relations. So the meek submissive Asian women have become bitchy princesses accustomed to getting their way.

Gross generalization, but one example of many.

Huge difference in business practices as well.

[billvon 3,072]

>yes you are wrong if we are referring to what is recognized as pizza
>here in the US ...I wasn't speaking about pizza on pluto or in
> timbuktu.

Ah. Well, back here on earth, the first pizzeria was in Italy. True, Italy did not invent Domino's - but then again, it's questionable as to whether that's real pizza. (Sadly, I don't know who brought pizza to Timbuktu.)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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oh I guess context is something alien to you

which context is that? That pizza is NOT a US invention but American pizza is? Surry buddy, if it makes you feel better.