Women Soldiers

[Andy_Copland 0]

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There are already examples of other countries where they have universal military service for both men and women, and it works just fine.

Israel comes to mind here, contrary to popular belief thier fighting women have never been directly involved in combat roles though. But i know what your saying.

I hear what everyones saying and theres a lot of valid points here. Its a lot to take in im getting a headache

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Ragnarok 0]

If you choose to raise your hand and enlist, you are entitled to serve in any capacity you choose.

If you can hack, great to have you aboard. I would rather have someone with heart and will than just simply the competence - male or female.

My 0.02.

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[Andy_Copland 0]

nice response

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Nightingale 0]

I want to say "yes. if they meet the requirements, let them fight."

However, I wonder about the cultural and psychological dynamics and how that would be altered by placing women in combat units. It seems that men (some men, anyway, I know I'm generalizing here) have an instinct to protect women. I'm not sure if it's biological or cultural, but it definitely seems to be there, and I wonder how that would affect the functionality of combat units.

An example: a few years ago, I was out at a bar with some karate buddies. We went outside so one of the guys could have a smoke, and there was a guy who was drunk off his ass who saw my friend's karate t-shirt and got a bit loud and threatening. I found myself pushed behind my two friends. They instinctively placed themselves between me and the drunk guy, even though, at that point, I was a better fighter than either of them and the drunk guy was more interested in picking a fight with my friend than he was in bothering me.

Men and women have more differences than just their reproductive organs. We are all more than the sum of our parts. There are cultural and perhaps biological factors that must be taken into account before we put women in combat.

I'm not saying women shouldn't be in combat. I'd like to see a woman in combat if she wants to be there. However, I don't think it'll be as simple as just opening the combat jobs to women. There's a lot going on psychologically, in both men and women, that will need to be factored in.

[shropshire 0]

Women are best at fighting when there's mud involved

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Andy_Copland 0]

Your not helping here because if im honest i did giggle at that statement!

Out of all the replies though im giving my thread winner to Nightingale.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

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Women are best at fighting when there's mud involved

Or when we are PMSing


.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Andy9o8 2]

I once heard a comedian state the case for women in combat, rebutting the presumption that women by nature wouldn’t be aggressive enough in combat:

Not aggressive enough? Simple. Just get them up to front lines, point out the enemy lines off in the distance, and tell them, “See those guys over there? They said you all look really fat in those uniforms.”

[Andy_Copland 0]

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[kbordson 8]

I actually picked this topic to debate when I was in high school (yes, we know I was a geek and yes, it was a couple of years back). I had arguments for both sides prepared.... and truthfully, I could see both sides.

But fundamentally, although I personally believe that I could fight a combat role and do the job that needed to be done, I agree with Nightengale that culturally, we are not ready for women to be openly on the "front lines" (where ever that might truly be).

I have quite a few male friends and although I do consider myself a big girl and capable of taking care of myself, I know that if something started, that I wouldn't be standing solo. When you develop a bond between the sexes, men tend to be protective, which, in a combat situation, could prove to be a distraction. And it's not just about sex and sexual tension.... it's more about the perception that females need to be watched over.

(I should go and dig out my forensics notes... )

Karen

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I think it is a very complex issue with many facets, but for arguments sake:

Women as mothers have an arguably much higher instinctive ability(not sure ability is the best word to use) to be protectors. That would pretty much level the playing field in that respect.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[livendive 8]

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In some modern mixed-sex American units this reality has prompted male resentment of women soldiers' inabilty to bear their fair share of physical labour.

I dont agree with that piece of text though, everyone has physical limits and when they are reached you have done your fair share. Women can work their guts out just as hard

Hogwash. If you hold yourself to a good cardiovascular and strengthening exercise program and I don't, are you going to be happy if I consistently do less work and call it my "fair share"?

I used to fish for a living. The pay was decided after each trip, based on what everybody did. Some people were much more efficient than others, and we'd split up our shares accordingly even though everybody worked the same number of grueling hours, putting in similar levels of effort. (and yes, those discussions were occasionally interrupted by fist fights. People tend to get touchy when a group docks their pay by several thousand dollars and splits those dollars among themselves. )

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Richards 0]

So long as there is one standard for all and not some "adjustment" to make sure we have equal representation, then any man,woman, minority, gay, transvestite, transexual, ...etc should be allowed to serve.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[skydyvr 0]

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they better be able to put their sex lives on hold...

I've never met a 21yr old that could do that -- bet you haven't either.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Hawkins121 0]

No, Women do not belong in combat. No way, no how...

I've seen female soldiers pushed through their training to meet quotas. While I was in a leg unit pretty much every woman that would participate in a ruck march would end up doing most of it on the back of a truck. Or one of the guys would carry their gear in hopes of getting some.

If a woman is placed in an environment with that much testosterone they will become a disturbance. Focus would end up on them rather than completing the mission. Hence why fags arent allowed in the military... Not because of religion or anything else..

Its because you cant have people fighting and fucking at the same time.

Ask anyone that spent any amount of time in an all Male hard charging unit and ask them what they noticed after they got back to a mixed gender leg unit... You might be surprised what you hear. Maybe they will be nicer about it than I.

[br0k3n 0]

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Women are best at fighting when there's mud involved

or Jam.

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Andy9o8 2]

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Hence why fags arent allowed in the military

You mean like John Wayne? His real name was Marion, you know.

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Its because you cant have people fighting and fucking at the same time.

I don't know about that. When the British Navy ruled the waves, weren't they predicated on "rum, buggery and the lash?"

[Lefty 0]

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I want to say "yes. if they meet the requirements, let them fight."

However, I wonder about the cultural and psychological dynamics and how that would be altered by placing women in combat units. It seems that men (some men, anyway, I know I'm generalizing here) have an instinct to protect women. I'm not sure if it's biological or cultural, but it definitely seems to be there, and I wonder how that would affect the functionality of combat units.

An example: a few years ago, I was out at a bar with some karate buddies. We went outside so one of the guys could have a smoke, and there was a guy who was drunk off his ass who saw my friend's karate t-shirt and got a bit loud and threatening. I found myself pushed behind my two friends. They instinctively placed themselves between me and the drunk guy, even though, at that point, I was a better fighter than either of them and the drunk guy was more interested in picking a fight with my friend than he was in bothering me.

Men and women have more differences than just their reproductive organs. We are all more than the sum of our parts. There are cultural and perhaps biological factors that must be taken into account before we put women in combat.

I'm not saying women shouldn't be in combat. I'd like to see a woman in combat if she wants to be there. However, I don't think it'll be as simple as just opening the combat jobs to women. There's a lot going on psychologically, in both men and women, that will need to be factored in.

I agree 100%. After doing some research into other militaries (including Israel's), and their reasons why they don't have women in combat units, I found that it can be psychologically shattering for men to see women die in combat. It seems there really is some sort of instinct (or social construct, though a very strong one) that causes men to feel protective of women. This can lead to conflicts between doing to mission and following an urge so strong that could, by some evidence I saw, devastate a man if he goes against it. Anyway, that's my take.
Edited for grammar.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I believe it is psychologically shattering for people to see anyone die in combat

whether it be a man seeing a woman
a woman seeing a man
man seeing his best friend
a woman seeing a woman
and many times just seeing the enemy

Each person may be affected differently, but I think it has more to do with who we are than our gender.



.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Hawkins121 0]

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I believe it is psychologically shattering for people to see anyone die in combat

whether it be a man seeing a woman
a woman seeing a man
man seeing his best friend
a woman seeing a woman
and many times just seeing the enemy

Each person may be affected differently, but I think it has more to do with who we are than our gender.



.

that sounds very nice and dramatic but its just not the way it is...

Marines and soldiers get pumped when they destroy the enemy... There is no time to feel sorry for them.. The only proof you would have access to are some of the videos of combat on the web. The guys would light up a vehicle or a group of insurgents or call for fire and they would cheer after they killed them or destroyed the vehicle or building they had targeted.

It would be much harder for a man to watch a woman die in combat than it would to see one of his buddies go down.. I dont know why. Its just the way it is.

Save the bleeding heart crap for green peace rallies. It doesnt belong on the battlefield.

[Hawkins121 0]

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A soldier is there to serve and to fight... they better be able to put their sex lives on hold...no matter WHAT their sexual orientation.

Wrong... Combat is mostly sitting around waiting for combat to happen, go on patrol, whatever... There is simply to much time and to much testosterone to ignore the sex factor.

You are giving people to much credit.. Which is fine if you want to write a halmark card but in combat situations shit has to get done. The sex factor must be eliminated all together in combat. That means removing women and homosexuals.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Nice that you have me all figured out and yet you dont know a thing about me.

I stated each person handles it differently - I see no falsehood in that.

I agree some cheer when the enemy is killed, but for all those that cheer at the moment, there are some it affects for the rest of their life.

For some it is harder for someone to see a woman killed than his best friend others not so much.

Like I said it depends on each person and their coping abilities.

Edited to add: Please tell us your qualifications for knowing what is 'needed' on the battlefield and what is not.
.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Amazon 7]

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I found that it can be psychologically shattering for men to see women die in combat. It seems there really is some sort of instinct (or social construct, though a very strong one) that causes men to feel protective of women.

Do they feel the same way after they blow the shit out of a woman who they THINK might have been a threat to them in a little village???

Edited to add I guess we know how some here would feel about that .

[MC208B 0]

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I found that it can be psychologically shattering for men to see women die in combat. It seems there really is some sort of instinct (or social construct, though a very strong one) that causes men to feel protective of women.

Do they feel the same way after they blow the shit out of a woman who they THINK might have been a threat to them in a little village???

Edited to add I guess we know how some here would feel about that .

US soldiers don't waste women they think might be a threat, if they waste a female, they WERE a threat.

As to your earlier post about Vietnam vets that "died" there and didn't know it, bullshit.

And before you start your routine blather, I was there, Vietnam.

To the original poster, women in the service okay, in combat, not okay.

[D22369 0]

Plain and simple, if a soldier cannot lift a 180 pound man with 70-80 pounds of gear over their shoulder, manage to grab both of their weapons, and run 100 yards then they should not be in combat.... regardless of sex.
***

man.... what the hell are you talking about??

When I entered the marine corps, i weighed 135lbs in the beginning of boot camp, three months later at the start of ITS I weighed 165 lbs, I could fireman carry a 200lb person --- not sure how far though.... but run with them...?....lol, and add in 70+lbs of gear?? ... your smoking crack

with that much weight you aint running its more of a stagger... unless you are hercules

if you discount people that cannot do what "you" perceive as the minimum then you are doing them a terrible disservice....

I could never do what you consider to be the minimum specs for a combat soldier... Buuut...I shot a 243 for qualification out of a possible 250 so I am pretty sure I can kill what I aim at... i have killed my deer and elk virtually every year that I have hunted....


if the enemy enters my sights at 600 meters or less.... even now... they would die.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.