Why dont we all believe????

[pirana 0]

Quote

Quote

I'm not railing against religion in general, just against literal interpretation of the fables of antiquity. Religion as a guide, using whatever stories they find useful is great for whoever likes that kind of thing. Using those stories in a dogmatic manner to deny physical reality is totally absurd.

which is my view also, as you know

Are you saying you share my view?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

But to claim the bible is really a placebo you'd have to claim that people don't apply any of the lessons within, and instead just 'believe in a book' or something - and I don't think you can make that claim.

Yeah, I guess you're right. I suppose it's more the belief in God that I think of as having a placebo effect. I imagine that believing there is a divine being who cares about you... that would be quite a comfort in this crazy world.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I'm not railing against religion in general, just against literal interpretation of the fables of antiquity. Religion as a guide, using whatever stories they find useful is great for whoever likes that kind of thing. Using those stories in a dogmatic manner to deny physical reality is totally absurd.

which is my view also, as you know

Are you saying you share my view?

I share "that" view

other;
I like Shotgun's and BV's dialogue. I picture a 5 year old, after having to completely memorize the Bible, having an indepth discussion with the parent to reconcile the conflicting parts.

I suspect religious folks pass on their moral lessons and use those parts of the Bible as 'tools' to reinforce the lessons. Much like Sesame Street, the Koran, the Veeda, anecdotal stories, personal example, etc like BV noted. Much like what non-religious parents will do (i.e., use whatever tools they have to reinforce the lessons they are passing on)

I think that families reading the thing use that just as much for bonding, and the little tykes are just comforted with their parent's voices as actually listening to the words said. They will grow up with an attachment for the Bible which would also mature into a more complex understanding/relationship as their minds grow. My daughter loved having us read to her, she hardly ever listened to the story, but it was still very important to her.

What harm in that? (Only when it's literally used as a means to cast unfair judgement on others, but more than the bible is used in that fashion, so why single just that one book out for derision?)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pirana 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Only when he starts shoving it down others' throats and making judgments about the goodness (or otherwise) of others based on his own mythology, and claiming his mythology is fact, does it become intrusive and obnoxious.

much like PC thuggery, radical liberalism and radical conservatism - isn't it?

Worse, far worse. None of those folks think it appropriate that I should burn in Hell for an eternity because I don't believe their myths.

He did say that. He did, he did!

A couple pages back when being asked why he couldn't answer on a certain issue, he fell back on some line about him going to heaven and non-beleivers burning for eternity.

And how does that work anyway? To burn, I'd have to have a physical existence. And not just have that physical existence, but have it in a sentient manner, . . after death! And for how long could I continue burning and still feel pain? What mechanism is it that allows a dead person to be sentient, and on fire, and feel the pain, after death, forever? Wouldn't I eventually turn to ash, or at least get charred to the point of having no pain receptors?

I'm really beginning to doubt the whole burn-in-hell-forever thing.

I know, I know; it's just a euphemism intended to convey the idea that a person is really bad - I just enjoy shredding dogma.

Reminds me of a line from Jim Carroll though:

"I was a Catholic boy
I was redeemed thru pain and not thru joy.
I'm now a Catholic man,
I put my tongue to the rail whenever I can."

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

Quote

Principia doesn't claim infallibility, nor does it condemn those who don't believe in the inverse square law to eternal damnation.

Not too mention that as our ability to examine the world in ever finer detail and with ever greater accuracy showed there to be errors in Newtonian mechanics, science (and the people who practice it) were open to new findings and updated models. This self-correcting nature of scientific discovery is either overlooked by psuedoscientists and fundamentalists, or they try to turn it around and say "Look, they can't make up their mind." Which really only shows their profound lack of understanding of the scientific method and/or their own blind faith.

Not to mention that organized religion has no self-correcting mechanism - because they are not open to ever being incorrect. Look how many centuries it took them to "pardon" Galileo. They should be so ashamed, and yet instead they are all so pious about it.

BTW, for those not familiar; Newtonian mechanics was not tossed because of relativity. Relativity built upon Newton's foundation, just as quantum mechanics has added another layer of accuracy after relativity. The fundamentalists who think the whole kit & kaboodle will someday be invalidated better not hold their breath.

Or maybe they should?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

Quote

I think that families reading the thing use that just as much for bonding, and the little tykes are just comforted with their parent's voices as actually listening to the words said.

. . . but more than the bible is used in that fashion, so why single just that one book out for derision?)

You are definitley onto something there. I went to church until I was about 14 or 15, . . . and never listened to a word that was said.

As for the 2nd part. Point well taken. I say we burn everything but Physics textbooks, the SIM, and the works of Dr. Suess (but do include those stupid Berenstein Bears in the bonfire).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[billvon 2,991]

>This self-correcting nature of scientific discovery is either overlooked
> by psuedoscientists and fundamentalists, or they try to turn it
> around and say "Look, they can't make up their mind." Which really
> only shows their profound lack of understanding of the scientific
> method and/or their own blind faith.

Exactly. And in those cases, the problem is with pseudoscientists and fundamentalists, not with religion (or science) in general.

[wmw999 2,446]

This is a lovely post. Thanks.
My son could recite his favorite "Ludwig von Drake" book back to me by the time he was 3 1/2. Maybe I should have started him on the Bible...

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

More like "this is the stuff that's important - love your neigbhor, look at your own failings before others, etc etc. Who begat who and details on how to invade a city-state - not so important."

I think you've side stepped the point slightly. The family tree of the first humans and city invasions aren't relevant to learning morals. The bible does however hold some strongly held lessons on morality that I'm sure you'd agree are pretty appalling, gay people are abominations, adulterers should be stoned and such like.

Modern society and our own individual sense of right allow people to sift through the bible and pick and choose which morals they want themselves and their kids to live by. Given that you have to question whether the bible is useful at all. Is it just a way to add weight to the lesson? "This is what a very wise man said a long time ago....."

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JackC 0]

Quote

>But what special insight does the Bible bring to the table when it
>comes to morals?

If you find none, then don't use it.

OK I'll rephrase the question. What special insight into morals do you find the Bible to have?

Quote

>So do parents teach children that they should pay attention to
>some of what God had to say and ignore the rest?

More like "this is the stuff that's important - love your neigbhor, look at your own failings before others, etc etc. Who begat who and details on how to invade a city-state - not so important."

Good grief Bill, you've got to get down low and squint to make that one work. How would you explain to a child which bits are important? Do you go through the bible with a highlighter and tell little Johnny to ignore the rest? What arbitrary method do you use to decide if "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." is important? What about "Ye shall keep the sabbath... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death"?

In order to figure out which bits of the Bible are "important" you have to send the whole thing through your own internal bullshit flter. If you are capable of doing that, why do you need the bible in the first place?

Quote

Perhaps. If the bible were full of nonsense words, the placebo effect would certainly hold. But to claim the bible is really a placebo you'd have to claim that people don't apply any of the lessons within, and instead just 'believe in a book' or something - and I don't think you can make that claim.

I didn't say the Bible has a placebo effect, I said religion has a placebo effect. Belief in and of itself does have a measurable effect on the brain.
http://www.davidbyrne.com/journal/misc/new_scientist_1_28_06.php#delusion

Quote

It's _a_ moral guide, certainly. Other people use the Koran, or the Vedas. Heck, some people use Sesame Street. Whatever works.

Mein Kampf can be used as a moral guide. What makes the Bible a good moral guide and Mein Kampf not?

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Modern society and our own individual sense of right allow people to sift through the bible and pick and choose which morals they want themselves and their kids to live by. Given that you have to question whether the bible is useful at all. Is it just a way to add weight to the lesson? "This is what a very wise man said a long time ago....."

That “sense of right” (and wrong) comes from God. I agree with you that we all have it. However, it is our rebellious selfish nature which entices us “to sift through the Bible and pick and choose which morals they want themselves and their kids to live by.” God’s moral law is as true today as it was in the time that it was given. We can choose not to follow it in our lifetimes; however, we are all still ultimately accountable to it.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Only when he starts shoving it down others' throats and making judgments about the goodness (or otherwise) of others based on his own mythology, and claiming his mythology is fact, does it become intrusive and obnoxious.

You didn’t answer my question.

Quote

Have you ever told a lie, Kallend (I have)
What does that make you?
What does that say about the goodness of your heart?

The Bible says "All liars will have their part in the lake of fire."

I’m not judging you. I’ve broken all 10 more times than I can remember.

Have you ever stolen or taken something that didn’t belong to you?

Cast out the beam in your own eye before worrying about the mote in mine. I am NOT subject to your mythology.

Let's take religion out of it. Have you ever told a lie?