Women made to cover up

[Guest]

Maybe the "fundamental" difference is that the nuns won't be beaten in public by the "religious police" if they violate a social taboo by accidentally exposing an ankle.

Choose your battles more carefully.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Darius11 12]

I don’t refer to all women as whores only the ones who dress and act that way. I am sorry if my honesty makes you uncomfortable or angry, but most guys who see a woman dressed with there boobs hanging out or there G string coming out of there pants do think in those terms. Even if they would never admit it.

For some reason people think freedom and being able to dress scantily is the same.
They also don’t understand any culture other then there own. That is fine until you start judging other people culture. I think some view Muslim woman as prying daily to be freed so they can show of their stuff.
I don’t know how many Muslim women you know but the ones I know don’t exactly view American woman as the beacon of equality. Most feels sorry for them as in their view the American women are used as products and viewed as things and not people.
The culture in a Muslim country is very different. In a democracy the majority wins. In an Islamic country and culture things that seem very small or insignificant here are viewed as huge infractions of common decency. So if the majority voted for an Islamic government, if the majority does not want there young girls running around like Brittany Spears then that is there prerogative, and who are we to say they are wrong.
One thing is for sure in my personal experience. The since of family and general respect for others is a lot stronger in countries like Iran then here.

Of course now the Dz.com PC crew of guys will come in and say no they always think of all women no matter how they are dressed as ladies who deserve nothing but respect. If you have seen my post before you know that I speak my mind, and I don’t kiss any ones ass.

However I do apologize if I offend any one who does not deserve it.
So if I did Sorry.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Guest]

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I don’t know how many Muslim women you know but the ones I know don’t exactly view American woman as the beacon of equality. Most feels sorry for them as in their view the American women are used as products and viewed as things and not people.

At least they aren't viewed as property.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rehmwa 2]

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That is fine until you start judging other people culture.

Yup, that's quite the one way street, isn't it?

I thought that was the whole point of this thread.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

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I don’t know how many Muslim women you know but the ones I know don’t exactly view American woman as the beacon of equality. Most feels sorry for them as in their view the American women are used as products and viewed as things and not people.

At least they aren't viewed as property.

Oh yea women in the US are respect and never viewed as property……..(That was sarcasm in case you missed it)

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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That is fine until you start judging other people culture.

Yup, that's quite the one way street, isn't it?

I thought that was the whole point of this thread.

You know every culture has good and bad points, but to judge with out really knowing the culture is just stupid IMO.

I have been lucky or maybe unlucky in my life to have experienced two totally different cultures in my life. Maybe thats why i am usally alone on my views.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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Maybe thats why i am usally alone on my views.

that's one theory

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Rick 67]

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I don’t know how many Muslim women you know but the ones I know don’t exactly view American woman as the beacon of equality. Most feels sorry for them as in their view the American women are used as products and viewed as things and not people.

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That is fine until you start judging other people culture.

okay

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[Zipp0 1]

Dirty girls make the world go round.

I'll never call you a whore for showing off what god gave you - unless you ask me nicely.

Zipp0

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Michele 1]

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they always think of all women no matter how they are dressed as ladies who deserve nothing but respect.

Do you really mean to say that a woman who wears a pair of hip riding jeans and has her thong exposed, or wears a tank top with some cleavage showing deserves less respect than someone who wears a turtleneck or a pair of high riding jeans?

You really mean to say that those who dress for the weather - i.e. a bathing suit at the beach, a pair of shorts and a midriff baring halter top in 100 degree weather deserves less respect than someone who doesn't?

And if a man wears a pair of shorts, but no top, does that mean he is "showing his stuff" and deserves less respect than a man who wears a pair of loose jeans and a tee shirt?

Wow. Darius, while I'm not "PC" per se, I do believe that your judgments are relatively strong and fundamentalistic...and that you judge books by their covers. I've known some women who, completely comfortable in their skin, wear skimpy clothing; that does NOT imply they are "whores" or women of loose morals...it just means that they are comfortable wearing certain clothing.

And in my experience, men think about sex on a regular basis...does that make them "nasty" or "dirty" minded? Nope...but one could say that, couldn't one? "All men are dogs" because sex is on their mind...

Your bias is showing pretty badly here...and yes, while you've been exposed to, and lived in, two diametrically opposed cultures, I'd say that perhaps exposure isn't quite enough to understand the underlying, basic tenants of this country.

Sorry if I've offended you by speaking bluntly; but I'm simply using your own style of commentary to communicate with you. I don't mean to offend...but rather, expose a thought pattern which I tend to find both funny and abhorent.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rehmwa 2]

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And in my experience, men think about sex on a regular basis...does that make them "nasty" or "dirty" minded? Nope...

actually is does. But we're comfortable with that

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Michele 1]

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actually is does. But we're comfortable with that

LOL. Well, but my point is that thinking about it doesn't mean a damned thing...it most certainly doesn't mean a damned thing about the way women dress...we could be covered like Nuns and men would still be thinking about it.

The fact that men think about sex a lot doesn't mean shit. In fact, to blame women and the way they dress for a biological function in men is really stupid. And to dress a woman so a man doesn't think about sex is ridiculous...men will think about it anyway. So sure, hand over the responsibility and "blame" to a woman because of how she dresses...go ahead. That gives us women a ton of power, now doesn't it?

LOL...frankly, I don't dress for a man...I dress for myself. If someone looks at me and says "whore" then I think that responsibility is theirs alone; after all, it's their judgment and not mine...and it's their issue, not mine.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rehmwa 2]

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...we could be covered like Nuns and men would still be thinking about it.

some of us even more so

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to blame women and the way they dress for a biological function in men is really stupid. And to dress a woman so a man doesn't think about sex is ridiculous...

you see, now you're judging other cultures. You are only allowed to be judged, not actually do the judging. you forget your place . Let's leave that to the men folk from other places

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Michele 1]

You just put me back in my place.

Bad Michele, for thinking independently.
Bad Michele for dressing like a whore.
Bad Michele for having more than three brain cells working at the same time.
Bad Michele, bad.

See? I know my place. Apparently wrapped in black clothing so as to not stimulate the sexual fantasies of any stray man who crosses my ill-gotten path.

Maybe I need a spanking.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 3,010]

>but rather, expose a thought pattern which I tend to find both funny and abhorent.

Do you feel that women being forced to cover their breasts is abhorrent, given that men are not subject to the same restrictions?

[rehmwa 2]

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Do you feel that women being forced to cover their breasts is abhorrent?

that completely depends on the breasts in question

frankly, in many cases, I can see an up side to it

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,010]

>frankly, in many cases, I can see an up side to it

Well, at the last World Team I saw several reasons that bare chests on men should be outlawed (especially Russians and Italians)

[wmw999 2,461]

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...we could be covered like Nuns and men would still be thinking about it.

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some of us even more so

That's only if they're wearing patent-leather boots and carrying a whip behind their back

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Michele 1]

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Do you feel that women being forced to cover their breasts is abhorrent, given that men are not subject to the same restrictions?

In New York, they're not. Apparently (and I don't have the time to research, sorry), the courts handed down a ruling that said women could go topless, just like men. Do many do it? Nope...but I watched a documentary on a photographer who photographed women topless in New York City, and the hassle he (and they) got...and how the cops were chagrined to find the ruling on the books. LOL. Funny, that.

I don't find it abhorrent, but I do have an issue with it. I am pleased that New York gave that ruling, and I wish the option were there for the rest of the states; it is on some beaches here, but not for the streets. Note I said option. It's about choice, when it all boils down to the bottom; choice. Would I choose to go topless or naked? Nope, unless it were my own home (as in now...). But can I ever state that someone else's choice in this regard (clothing...or lack thereof) is wrong? Nope. It's the same way I feel about abortion, and gun ownership...it's about choice.

And in a culture where there is no choice for women, as in the original premise, then I think there should be choice. What a person does with that choice is their business, not mine. Nuns accept the restrictions when making their choice to enter the nunnery and go into service of God in that manner. Fundamentalist women do NOT have that choice.

It's choice, pure and simple, when it comes down to it. That's all. And I wish there were more places choice was available throughout the world. And a woman making a choice to wear something I don't particularly think would work for me does NOT make her a whore or worth less respect than someone making a different choice in clothing.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Darius11 12]

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Your bias is showing pretty badly here...and yes, while you've been exposed to, and lived in, two diametrically opposed cultures, I'd say that perhaps exposure isn't quite enough to understand the underlying, basic tenants of this country.

I have lived half my life here and if I don’t understand the culture of this country how can anyone who has spent less or no time at all in an Islamic environment think they know what a Muslim woman want?


As for my comments Michelle there based on reality not the fantasy PC world that most would like to live in.

Guys that I have hung out with, American, white black all of them judge a book by it's cover to some extent as a matter of fact woman I know do the same, and if you don’t agree then again were back to the realty thing.

When I say dressed like a slut I mean dressed like a slut I really don’t have the time or the energy to search for pics on google to tell you what I mean.

Also I said this before but I write long posts and ramble often so it might have been missed. What to you may seem like a perfectly ok way to dress might be considered as an insult in other cultures.

I don't expect you or any one not exposed to the Muslim culture to understand. What I do hope is to know that you don’t understand and don’t think you know what others want biased on your experience.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Lindsey 0]

When I say dressed like a slut I mean dressed like a slut I really don’t have the time or the energy to search for pics on google to tell you what I mean.

That you consider women slutty who dress in some way or another only tells me about YOU....that you view women as objects, rather than of people who are deserving of respect. It makes me think that you're really angry with women for some reason or another....

There are plenty of people who see women dressed scantily who don't think of them as sluts at all. When I see men running around in shorts barely covering their bums and no shirt, I don't think of them as slutty either. Behavior, not attire, defines a slut. AND slutty isn't always a bad thing... :)

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Michele 1]

Darius, what I'm addressing is your stated view that people who dress a certain way are less deserving of respect than others who dress differently.

My contention is that no matter how anyone dresses, they should be accorded the respect any human deserves. End of point.

Your comment again makes me believe that you believe that a whore (your words) and/or a slut (again, your words) can be acceptably less deserving of respect than a woman who dresses according to your opinion a different, more "modest" way.

Frankly, those are the sentiments of a certain sort of person. Some of those people are the same sort said, when a woman is raped, was "asking for it by the way she dressed" or who will rape a prostitute simply because she is a prostitute. And these are the same sort of people who abdicate their responsibilities in their actions, nearly always, by saying "they" (whomever "they" happen to be) caused it because "he looked at me funny" or "she doesn't know her place" or "they deserved it." All of that is hooey. YOU are the only one responsible for your actions. What I or other women choose to wear does not dictate your actions. End of discussion.

They are the same sort of people who, judging by the clothing, will determine a person's IQ, ability to earn an income, and all sorts of other judgments on a person. And frankly, yes, I've made some of those judgments myself when I was younger. Happily, as I've grown up and matured, I've realized the person inside the clothing is what matters; and not how they appear on the outside.

No, I don't think that you quite understand the most basic, fundamental issue upon which this country was founded. It's the concept of choice. Period. End of discussion. It's the ability to have more than one "choice" foisted upon you, and to make that choice for your own self between two options. If a culture, patriarchal and opressive to women, demand their women to wear a certain clothing, and there is NO choice but to wear that particular outfit, then there is NO CHOICE.

If a woman is threatened with beheading if she doesn't dress appropriately, then there is NO CHOICE.

No, Darius, you don't understand the CHOICE aspect of this country at all. You may have been exposed to it, may have used it, may have even taken advantage of it, but you don't understand it. Frankly, I would also say you don't understand a woman because you haven't been one. For you to say I don't understand a muslim woman because I've not been exposed to them is wrong...but you're right in I don't understand the religion because I haven't practiced it. But as a woman, I venture to bet I have a much greater understanding of being a woman than you do; likewise, you have a much greater understanding of being a boy than I do.

I'm not PC. I'm being blunt. I will not defer to you; nor will I accept that choice is a bad thing. And sorry if you can't deal with it. I must've mistaken my place again. Sigh...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Darius11 12]

Sorry I forgot you have to say what you think people want to hear on here and not what’s true.


I don't need to be loved by all or care to be. I rather be real then win an on line popularity contest.

If you can’t handle the truth then you really need to look at your self not try to give me free therapy.

Have a great day
You know the same BS
Do good things and good things will happen
Beauty is only the inside and that’s all that matters.
I can go on and on but you get the point..............I think

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Rick 67]

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Sorry I forgot you have to say what you think people want to hear on here and not what’s true.


I don't need to be loved by all or care to be. I rather be real then win an on line popularity contest.

If you can’t handle the truth then you really need to look at your self not try to give me free therapy.

Have a great day
You know the same BS
Do good things and good things will happen
Beauty is only the inside and that’s all that matters.
I can go on and on but you get the point..............I think

***

thanks for letting us know what the world is like I didn't realize I should be judging people on what they wear and how they look.

You must be a genius to know what everyone is thinking

Is it hard being the only one that speaks the truth?

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[Darius11 12]

Michele you are very good at saying what people want to hear.

But if you are going to tell me that the way someone dresses no matter how extreme it might be does not effect the way you think about them. Then I call bull shit.

I am done with this thread.
I am going to go home and beat my girl friend once again.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain