Women made to cover up

[Darius11 12]

So if you see a guy with tight leather pants on and his butt cheeks sticking out you go up to him just like any one else on the DZ.


FYI it’s not hard to be real or know the truth. You should try it some time.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Lindsey 0]

lol....it's amazing you can't even see that what you're saying is even a little bit disturbing. To me it's frightening.... Blows my mind that you're so oblivious to it. So much so that you think a differing view is trying to win a "popularity contest?" Wow.

I still say that the way you talk about women speaks VOLUMES about you....much more than they way a woman dresses says about her sexual practices...

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Lindsey 0]

So if you see a guy with tight leather pants on and his butt cheeks sticking out you go up to him just like any one else on the DZ.

No. I'd prob'ly slap his ass, though, then run off and pretend Britt did it....lol.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Rick 67]

maybe we have a different idea of the truth

I probably would go up and talk to the guy with his cheeks out just to see what he was about the world is made up of a lot of different people and if you judge to quickly you might just miss out on meeting some interesting folks


edited to add It would probably just be Rabbit with his chaps on again anyway

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[Steel 0]

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Sorry I forgot you have to say what you think people want to hear on here and not what’s true.

There is no doubt that I am definately NOT somebody trying to win a popularity contest here. That being said, reading the posts in this thread as objectively as I can, I think Michele has made all clear and concise points which clearly refute yours.
But to be completely accurate, I will say that I do see one statement that she made thats not true. Abortion is NOT a choice, its a barbaric act. Its not any more a choice than sticking a new born baby in a garbage compactor because he is not convenient. Both times a baby is killed.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Michele 1]

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Michele you are very good at saying what people want to hear.

Not really. And, like you, I don't care if someone wants to hear it, or if it's PC, or what. I state my opinion, and if you can't deal with it, no skin off my nose.

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But if you are going to tell me that the way someone dresses no matter how extreme it might be does not effect the way you think about them. Then I call bull shit.

I'll say it again; call bullshit all you like. That only tells me more about you, your inability to be objective, and your difficulties in controlling your own self than it does about anything else. I call bullshit on your judgment, attitude, abrogation of responsibilities, and mysoginistic claims on this thread.

The way a person dresses does not automatically qualify them for less respect. Period. End of point. Choices, man. It's all about choice, the freedom to make them, and the ability to have them. Choice. Good grief, how hard is that to understand?

If you can't accept that, you've got a lot of growing up to do. If you can't accept/respect choice in dress, then you certainly can't accept/respect another's religion, or food choices, or hairdressing. If you can't accept that people are people, no matter how they dress, and for that fact alone there is respect deserved, then you've got a long, long walk ahead of you. Intolerance and judgment abound in your world, apparently...and that, Darius, is a sad, sad thing. Hopefully, someday you'll mature enough to realize what is right and wrong, and that it has nothing to do with the amount of leg or cleavage showing. And maybe, someday, you'll accept responsibility for your own behavior, and not blame it on others' clothing.

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I am done with this thread.

What? Two strong, intelligent women start to debate you based on another strong, intelligent woman pointing out your use of the word "whore" and you run away? Well, I suppose that is in keeping. We must've made you do it, right? Poor thing.

I'd rather you be done with the attitude you have than with this thread, but it's YOUR CHOICE...

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I am going to go home and beat my girl friend once again.

She showing too much ankle again?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Dolph 0]

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Darius, what I'm addressing is your stated view that people who dress a certain way are less deserving of respect than others who dress differently.

Yeah, this is what I do. I'm a judgemental bastard and I'm comfortable this way. I'll call people sluts, man-whores, metrosexual pussies, attention whores and what have you, based on their appearance alone. It's my prerogative as a free person to judge others unfairly. Sometimes this little exercise in freedom cause problems for me; people have little tolerance for any negative thinking directed at them and some will violate my rights by attempting to modify my mind using physical means.

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My contention is that no matter how anyone dresses, they should be accorded the respect any human deserves. End of point.

It really depends what you mean with respect - respect of their individual human rights, certainly. That does not include a positive, all inclusive reception of others though. It's restricted to respecting their rights as free individuals and tolerating behaviour that for one isn't really any of my business and for another doesn't really affect me at all.

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YOU are the only one responsible for your actions. What I or other women choose to wear does not dictate your actions. End of discussion.

Pretty much sums it up. Still, it's more dangerous to pull low, hook low without looking in turbulent weather etc. Kinda like me shooting my mouth about how that big bodybuilder dude at the bar really looks like a feminine sissy who spends too much time looking at his own reflection. In a range where he can hear it. That caused me a "matter over mind" situation and all I did was innocently expressing my shallow analysis of what that persons appearance lead me to think about him.

The world is far from perfect and it is wise to consider the circumstances and the potentials of situations before acting. It may very well be that it's someone elses weakness that cause problems. Once the bad deed is done, who's too blame matters little for the consequences though.

It's not that I disagree with your points as such, Michele. I just want to emphasise that we also got a right to judge people negatively at will as long as we do not infringe on their rights (as fundamentalists would do, by ordering them to modify their behaviour under threat of violence).

[Lindsey 0]

I'm a judgemental bastard and I'm comfortable this way.

At least you recognize that it's YOUR way of seeing things and not an attitude shared by all. If you view women as sluts and realize that you're being judgmental, then that's a lot different than a person who sees women as sluts and doesn't realize that there's any other "true" way to describe these same women.

So whatever floats your boat....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Michele 1]

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I just want to emphasise that we also got a right to judge people negatively at will as long as we do not infringe on their rights (as fundamentalists would do, by ordering them to modify their behaviour under threat of violence).

I agree in essence with what you're saying. But my contention is still as simple as a more base reality than that...it's the choice...

As you point out, the fundamentalists - islam mostly, but some christian sects (and not nuns) - eliminate the choice aspect.

Frankly, what astounds me is that. Maybe it's because I'm so used to choice, but to me, demanding that a person dress a certain way on pain of physical punishment makes the dressing insincere. IOW, if a woman chooses to dress a certain way out of worship of a diety, then that is a sincere choice, and shows respect for her beliefs. However, if a woman is made to dress a certain way to show the same respect to that diety, then it's insincere, and done simply because she doesn't care to lose her head today.

The choice, then, is the fundamental aspect that I'm addressing. Not anything other than that; once the idea is stripped down to it's basic nature, it's all about choice.

Darius doesn't agree with choices, apparently. He doesn't seem to think that women (or people, for that matter) should have respect simply because they're alive...or, as you put it, basic human respect. That is what I'm discussing...he's made the claim that women who dress a certain way - not men, mind you, just women - are whores and sluts. Because of that, I contend that he does not believe in human rights for all - not even the mere respect that a person who is alive should be accorded. No, instead he labels them as sluts and whores.

I don't think that you're discussing that aspect at all. rather, in your post, you say that you're a judgmental bastard and are o.k. with that. Knowing that you're judgmental took some introspection...Darius, however, is refusing to see that in his opinion. Furthermore, you bring in an element of moral choices...and their repercussions. Darius completely avoided answering my statements, or even countering them. He's ignoring the ramifications of his behavior and opinions, while you're not.

Does that mean I agree with you? No, but I disagree less because you've at least taken a close look, understood some things about yourself, and are willing to accept - and to curb, in some instances - a behavior that you have. And that's far more mature and responsible than blaming a woman's cleavage for a behavior.

As an aside, in re: Darius' comment about popularity contests, nope...I don't play that. Don't care to, don't want to, don't need to. I state my opinion. If it's popular, fine. If it's not, fine. It's the way I think...and that's just fine with me.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Skyrad 0]

your implication is that in Islamic counties women are forced to cover up and its a social taboo not to. Also your comment about the Religious police just goes to show how little you really understand about Islamic countries, it seems that you are transfering you limited knowledge base of one or two Arab countries and inflicting it on all Islamic societies. As for the Italian BASE bod, it seems you're not alone in your simple belife that ALL Muslim women are forced to wear black from head to toe. Just as I often hear rubbish about Muslim women not being allowed access to an education. The fact is it is only a couple of countries that make their women dress head to toe and the main culprit (along with its religious police0 is Saudi. but the people are stuck with a growing Wahibist problem and a evil corupt regime. Why? because GWB keeps them in power.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

i think that was an unfair and acidic attack on Darius. Here look, more oppressed Muslim women living in Islamic counties.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Michele 1]

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i think that was an unfair and acidic attack on Darius.

Which part?

I did nothing more than point out what had already been pointed out: assuming someone who does not dress to his desires he considered a "slut" and a "whore" and that in my opinion, that was not according respect deserved to all humankind. He, after being challenged, repeated his assertion that I had read him correctly. If it was unfair of me to state my own opinion, then so be it. Oh well.

Sorry you think I was unfair and acidic. I was going for ascerbic.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Skyrad 0]

whos property?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Sorry you think I was unfair and acidic. I was going for ascerbic.

Ciels-
Michele

Yea, well spelling never was my strong point

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Lindsey 0]

I'm still not getting your point. First you posted a picture of nuns, trying to make a connection between Islamic and Catholic women I guess? Now you're posting a picture of women in Middle Eastern countries wearing jeans and t-shirts, trying to make another connection between them and Western women????

I think that there are women who cover themselves head-to-toe whose mode of dress is chosen by them and others whose dress is chosen for them. For some there are religious, social, or legal repercussions if they do not follow the dress code. Cultures are different. Some societies are more forward-thinking than others. While there are trends that tend to define Western countries and there are trends that tend to define Islamic countries, few of those are absolutely, across-the-board true....and some of the ideas we have about others just are downright not true. In fact (gasp), there may even be similarities between "us" and "them" if we look real hard.

Am I close?

Are those girls slutty?

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Skyrad 0]

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I'm still not getting your point. First you posted a picture of nuns, trying to make a connection between Islamic and Catholic women I guess? Now you're posting a picture of women in Middle Eastern countries wearing jeans and t-shirts, trying to make another connection between them and Western women????

I think that there are women who cover themselves head-to-toe whose mode of dress is chosen by them and others whose dress is chosen for them. For some there are religious, social, or legal repercussions if they do not follow the dress code. Cultures are different. Some societies are more forward-thinking than others. While there are trends that tend to define Western countries and there are trends that tend to define Islamic countries, few of those are absolutely, across-the-board true....and some of the ideas we have about others just are downright not true. In fact (gasp), there may even be similarities between "us" and "them" if we look real hard.

Am I close?

Bingo! Yep, I'd say you are bang on the mark, unfortunatly you seem to be the only one here that gets it.

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Are those girls slutty?

I don't know but I wouldn't mind finding out

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mnealtx 0]

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The fact is it is only a couple of countries that make their women dress head to toe and the main culprit (along with its religious police0 is Saudi. but the people are stuck with a growing Wahibist problem and a evil corupt regime. Why? because GWB keeps them in power.

(see emphasis)

1. Running the bullshit flag WAY up on that one...

2. *it's supposed to be puff puff PASS, dammit!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,010]

>I forgot you have to say what you think people want to hear on here and not what’s true.

At most of the places I go, it quite literally is true. It doesn't matter what people at Perris wear; they get treated the same way by the DZ and by the people working there. Sure, guys may decide to hit on one woman over another based on how she is dressed - but just as often it's based on how she talks, or whether she smokes, or whether she looks a certain way, or whether she's in the bar etc etc. That's personal preference, not judgement.

Same goes at the place I work. We have people wearing short skirts, long dresses, jeans, suits, T-shirts and turbans. And while we often do pay attention to dressing up for customers (basically to impress them) we don't really care what other people wear.

Now, is it rude to wear whatever you want in a place that has certain mores? Yep. It would be rude (IMO) to walk into a conservative church in a bikini, or go to a beach party in a suit. (OK, that would just look dumb.) Same goes for wearing shorts in a culture where women don't traditionally show their legs.

>I rather be real then win an on line popularity contest.

If being "real" means treating people differently based on their outward appearance - I'm glad I'm not real!

[Skyrad 0]

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- I'm glad I'm not real!

I knew it! I knew it! You really are a duck!!!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[misskriss 0]

I just think all women should be allowed to dress without judgement. You made a post about your cock once.. I do not think you are a male slut because I don't know you and won't base things on your posts. Sometimes people need attention for various reasons and one way a woman can gather that is from her dress. Conservative or provocative. I'm sure many women dress certain ways for a lot of different reasons including to gather attention from men, however, that doesn't make one a whore. We never know what other people have been through to make them act or dress the way they do.

I also don't judge Muslim women for the way they dress. In fact, I somehow find it liberating instead of opressive if that's how they CHOOSE to dress. The pressure to look good in this or that is totally gone. I know that particular viewpoint is very " on the surface " but it is just an example. I just find the term "whore" ugly and degrading and remember we are all human beings... even Christians.
"

[bch7773 0]

I've never heard any news stories about nuns being beaten or imprisoned for removing their black-robe-thing.

But i have heard multiple times about women in islamic countries beaten or jailed for showing too much skin... like an arm or an ankle.

and yes i know that there are large differences between fundamentalist islam countries and uhhh new islam countries (is that what it would be called?)

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Elisha 1]

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Do you even understand the difference between a Catholic nun and an Islamic fundamentalist? Your choice of photos seems to indicate that you don't.

Take this shit to Speakers Corner.

He doesn't understand either that the first photo is of Orthodox nuns, not Roman Catholic and the one in the middle of the (Orthodox Nuns) is the Abbess....and that Orthodox Monks dress the same way (except have beards....because they're men) and frequently wear caps as well...but as we all know of course, men are forcing these...wait...MEN...wait...uhhhh...Men forcing men....no!....head don't explode....AAARRRRRRGGGHHHH!

[ImGunnaJump 0]

What amazes me most about this whole thread is that the Skyrad goes on and on about those big words respect, arrogance, truth...and he started this whole rant on the women's forum under the pretext that this was open general discussion of a different culture, when in fact this was (is) a blatant propaganda speech about all of us evil westnerners. To be more precise, us evil western culture sluts, because apprently if you're not an islamic woman it is assumed that you are a Brittany Spears wanna- be slut.

This was not truthful, not respectful, but was definitely arrogant. You go on and on about how ignorant we all are of your culture, but as someone said earlier, it also blows my mind that you are soooo oblivious to your deep-seated prejudice that ultimately the only way for women to behave is when they are "modestly" dressed - whatever that means, I'm guessing it doesn't allow for too much freedom. You don't want to give a woman that, for God's sake!!
For the record since you are quite ignorant of our culture, somehow despite being exposed to it for many years as you say( - I doubt this, by the way. I say you, for the most part, stay cloistered in your own community and sit back and judge everyone else as lesser people. Especially us whorish, evil western women), we most definitely do not all want to look like Brittany Spears and, how did you put it??- have a gang-bang party??!!!. We all don't see her as a role model of any kind.

I definitely agree that there is a lot of misinformation about the difference in our cultures. But there is lot we know that isn't just "made-up" - like a woman in danger of being killed because she was raped (oddly enough called and "honor killing"), by her ownfamily, no less. I guess she was raped because she dressed provacatively, like Brittany Spears I'm sure (LOL), and for that deserves to die...

I work in an Asian-Indian doctors office. There are many Indians, of different sects, and there are many Muslims who come in. Some of the meanest, nastiest people who come in are are the "most devout", which again, is an ironic fact of all "fundamentalists" of every stripe - Muslim, Hindu, and, yes, even Christian. It seems they really work from a position of anger (about what I don't know, but it's there) and of arrogance. I think it has something to do w/fear - fear of God, fear of punishment by God, fear of their fellow men....

I see them and I talk with them, I work along side them. I am exposed to these cultures 8 hours, or longer, a day. I don't agree personally w/the arranged marriages, the way many of the women clearly are expected to be subsurvient to their husbands - the husbands speak for them, interrupt them when they speak, order them to sit, stand, get on the scale(to be weighed) - they don't normally yell in public, but there definitely is the tension they they are to do what they are told which is uncomfortable. But it is their life, and I respect that and don't make fun of them. There isn't a lot to make fun of. So many of them are soooo depressed - I see it. Now there are definitely some who seem happy, content w/their lives - it's about 50/50. The ones who are happiest by far are those who are allowed to enjoy some of the "western" culture, but even among those there is still a bottom line threat, a real[bthreat, that if one of the young college-age girls were to marry out of their faith they would be killed. Why? Because any one who is not of their faith and culture is a lesser person. The doctors I work for left India because the husband is Muslim, his wife is Hindu - they wanted to come to the USA because they knew they had a chance at a life together here. They loved each other and wanted to create a life together. They knew they would be killedif they stayed in India because he was a muslim and she was hindu.

They chose to come to the USA because of the freedoms we have here - it isn't perfect. Many people experience prejudice and bad treatment daily. But at least we have, for the most part, the option to pursue the life we want w/out fear of death. This is most dear to us women I think. We don't have to be controlled by the men in our lives and around us. We have the freedom the because we the [have the/b]right as human beings to choose our own path - and that clearly bugs some people.

"...I've learned that while the "needs" in life are important (food, water, shelter), it's the "wants" in life (ice cream, chocolate, sex) that make it worth the effort." Kbordson

[Darius11 12]

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I just think all women should be allowed to dress without judgement.

That’s would be great I would love it if looks, Money, or any physical aspect of a person didn’t matter, but in real life they do. Of course some disagree with me so let me re phrase. In the real life I have seen all those things do matter.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[caz 0]

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What amazes me most about this whole thread is that the Skyrad goes on and on about those big words respect, arrogance, truth...and he started this whole rant on the women's forum under the pretext that this was open general discussion of a different culture, when in fact this was (is) a blatant propaganda speech about all of us evil westnerners. To be more precise, us evil western culture sluts, because apprently if you're not an islamic woman it is assumed that you are a Brittany Spears wanna- be slut.

it amazes me how people get their knickers in such a twist on here! Skyrad, not seen you for ages mate, you back in London at the moment? If so come and join us for a beer some time, as long as you promise not to call us "Brittany Spears wanna- be slut"s if we expose our ankles in public!

~~~ London Skydivers ~~~