Gun-o-phobes Take Two to the Chest

[kallend 2,106]

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i live in England, even though you've not mentioned the dangers you feel you face on a daily basis, i can imagine what you mean. I have none of the "realistic ideas" that you have, about my life in England, yes England has it's fair share of problems BUT, the examples given are a tiny minority, certainly not enough of those things happen to make me feel the need to own a gun to protect my loved ones.

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"Crime rates as measured in victim surveys are all higher in England than the United States. Crime rates as measured in police statistics are higher in England for half of the measured crime types..."

Source: Crime and Justice in the United States and in England

Since your perception of crime rates in England seems to be flawed, perhaps you should reconsider your position about the value of gun ownership for personal protection.

1. Those data were for 1981-1996, haven't you got anything relevant to today?

2. What about HOMICIDES, the only crime that is almost universally reported and has a common definition? How does the UK compare in homicides? Accidental shooting deaths?

3. Speaking for myself, I'd rather be victim of car theft than murder. YMMV.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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Those data were for 1981-1996, haven't you got anything relevant to today?

Since then, crime rates in America have continued to drop, while crime rates in the UK have risen. So today, the comparison is even worse for jolly old England.

Thanks for asking.

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What about HOMICIDES, the only crime that is almost universally reported and has a common definition? How does the UK compare in homicides?... Speaking for myself, I'd rather be victim of car theft than murder.

The subject was the utility of gun ownership for self defense. Preventing homocide is not the sole usefulness of gun ownership. Guns can even be used to stop crimes like assault, burglary and car theft.

Oh, and murder rates increased in England after handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned.

Thanks for asking.

[kallend 2,106]

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Those data were for 1981-1996, haven't you got anything relevant to today?

Since then, crime rates in America have continued to drop, while crime rates in the UK have risen. So today, the comparison is even worse for jolly old England.

Thanks for asking.

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What about HOMICIDES, the only crime that is almost universally reported and has a common definition? How does the UK compare in homicides?... Speaking for myself, I'd rather be victim of car theft than murder.

The subject was the utility of gun ownership for self defense. Preventing homocide is not the sole usefulness of gun ownership. Guns can even be used to stop crimes like assault, burglary and car theft.

Oh, and murder rates increased in England after handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned.

Thanks for asking.

Increased to what? 50% of the US rate?

I'd still rather have my car stolen than be shot.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Oh, and murder rates increased in England after handguns and semi-auto long guns were banned.

Thanks for asking.

In South Africa car theft thugs figured out it was easier to shoot you through the window and clean up than it was to risk you having a gun - thanks to everyone pretty much having one.

I'm not an advocate for, or against guns, but your logic and example doesn't always work when the situations develop.

I had a book written by a friend of mine (who's father was a gunsmith). He broke down various scenarios, reaction times, etc that the average gun owner (ie Joe Blow on the street) would potentially encounter. In almost all cases the aggressor came out on top. I think, like most things in society, they can have their place.

The idea that a gun can protect you isn't without validity but 99% of the 'Rambo wannabes' out there are kidding themselves about how the situation will play out.

Blues.
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[quade 4]

Nice selective quoting there John . . .

Here might be a slightly more realistic quote starting from the fifth prargraph of the press release;
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/cjusew96.pr

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The latest police statistics (1996) show that
the rates of murder, rape and robbery reported to
law enforcement agencies were all higher in the
United States than in England and Wales, whereas
law enforcement data showed that assault, burglary
and motor vehicle theft rates were all higher in
England and Wales than in America. During 1996,
English and Welsh police recorded twice as many
burglaries and motor vehicle thefts on a per
capita basis as recorded by law enforcement
agencies in the United States.

Police statistics for 1996 showed that
compared to England and Wales the murder rate here
was 5.7 times higher and the rape rate was about 3
times higher. These differences had narrowed
after 1981, when the murder rate here was 8.7
times higher and the rape rate 17 times higher.

Firearms were involved in crime far more
often in the United States than in England and
Wales:
--homicides, 68 percent in the United States
and 7 percent in England and Wales.
--robberies, 41 percent in the United States
and 5 percent in England and Wales.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mr2mk1g 10]

Do we really have to trot through all this again John?

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Since then, crime rates in America have continued to drop, while crime rates in the UK have risen. So today, the comparison is even worse for jolly old England.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=57899;guest=23169916
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=57900;guest=23169916
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=57901;guest=23169916

The actual statistics show something very very different to the version you keep on posting.

I've told before that if you keep posting such miss-information after you have accepted in previous threads that the situation is actually the exact opposite, I will simply come straight out with it and call you a liar in future.

The position as I have posted now countless times is: ""Since peaking in 1995, BCS crime has fallen by 44 per cent, representing 8.5 million fewer crimes, with vehicle crime and burglary falling by over a half (both by 57%) and violent crime falling by 43 per cent during this period." (BCS 2005)

[Royd 0]

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Post: Clearly another xample of why the UN will have to intervean in the US to sort out your gun problems

As my Dad would put it," The U.N. couldn't whip its way out of a wet paper bag.

[Falco98 0]

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"A lawsuit in the District against gunmakers was dismissed yesterday by a D.C. Superior Court judge who ruled that the suit was precisely the sort of claim that a new federal law was intended to block. The suit, filed by the city and by victims of gun violence and their families, aimed to hold gun manufacturers liable for the flow of firearms into the District and for the carnage created by the sale of illegal weapons."

I didn't have time to scan the 5+ pages of discussion to make sure this hasn't been said already, but:
I wonder if anyone in DC (the DC victims of violent crime alliance or what have you), has ever thought of filing a class-action lawsuit against the lawmakers of DC, for passing such an asinine, counter-effective, castrating, and dangerous law as a wholesale gun ban? Even a little kid knows that if you make something unlawful to possess, then the only people who possess it will be the unlawful types (i mean, look how well prohibition worked, and how well the war on drugs is going?)

oh well, enough of my rant, it's probably all been said already anyway

[JohnRich 4]

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I had a book written by a friend of mine (who's father was a gunsmith). He broke down various scenarios, reaction times, etc that the average gun owner (ie Joe Blow on the street) would potentially encounter. In almost all cases the aggressor came out on top.

Someone's dreamed-up hypothetical scenarios and assumptions don't represent real-life. Here's a study of actual instances of real-life crimes:

Rates of Injury by Victim's Method of Protection:


Robbery  Assault

Physical force ............................  51%      52% 

Tried to get help or frighten attacker ....  49%      40%

Knife .....................................  40%      30% 

Non-violent resistance/evasion ............  35%      26%

Threatened or reasoned with attacker ......  31%      25% 

Other measures ............................  27%      21% 

No self protection ........................  25%      27%

Other weapon ..............................  22%      25%

Gun .......................................  17%      12% 


From:   Kleck G, "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America", 

Table 4.4.

Source: Analysis of incident files of 1979-1985 National Crime

Survey public use computer tapes (ICPSR,1987b).

Note:   Percentages do not total to 100% since any single 

criminal incident can involve several different types 

of self-protection methods. 

Do you see what the single most effective means of defense is?
A gun!

And if you want to see real-life stories of armed defense, spend some time perusing these stories:

The KABR's "Operation Self Defense" files:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/

[JohnRich 4]

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Nice selective quoting there John . . . blah blah blah

Nice irrelevant quoting on your part.

Gun crime went up in England after guns were banned.

How British crime compares with America is irrelevant to the efficacy of banning guns to prevent crime in England. This is the kind of illogic used by the anti-gun folks...

[kallend 2,106]

Kleck - Ha ha. What a charlatan, as has been shown in many previous threads here.

I bet someone will start calling him a Professor soon.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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"Since peaking in 1995, BCS crime has fallen by 44 per cent ... blah blah blah

Once again, you're ignoring the other statistics which don't suit you - crimes actually reported to police. And you're also ignoring the fact that gun crime went up after guns were banned. This later drop in crime, according to a questionable telephone survey, doesn't change the fact that the gun ban accomplished nothing.

[JohnRich 4]

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I wonder if anyone in DC (the DC victims of violent crime alliance or what have you), has ever thought of filing a class-action lawsuit against the lawmakers of DC, for passing such an asinine, counter-effective, castrating, and dangerous law as a wholesale gun ban?

There is a Bill in Congress to restore 2nd Amendment rights to the citizens of Washington D.C.

Something of interest regarding this popped up last week during the so-called "shots fired" shooting scare at the House office building, which turned out to just be elevator repairmen at work. In the news reports it was mentioned that there is a handgun range inside the building for use by members of Congress.

Now I don't know about others, but it sure strikes me as hypocritical that Congress allows itself to own and shoot handguns in Washington, D.C., while at the same time denying that same right to the citizens there.

[JohnRich 4]

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Kleck - Ha ha. What a charlatan, as has been shown in many previous threads here.

I think you're referring to John Lott. But hey, it's normal for anti-gun people to be blinded to the facts by their gun-o-phobia. Doh!

Kleck's research is rock solid.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Kleck - Ha ha. What a charlatan, as has been shown in many previous threads here.

I bet someone will start calling him a Professor soon.

I'lll take Kleck over Kellerman or Bellesiles any day of the week. Those two are clear frauds - one was dismissed for it.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Source: Analysis of incident files of 1979-1985 National Crime
Survey public use computer tapes (ICPSR,1987b)

Thanks for the info John, but 2 things I think bear mentioning.

1) What's with the data that's 20+ years old? Is there data supporting your viewpoint for the last 10 years?

2) The 'Someone's dreamed-up hypothetical scenarios and assumptions don't represent real-life.' comment was incorrect. He had numerous case and personal experiences. If memory serves he was on in the police force in Namibia. If I were a betting man I'd say he probably has more exposure to violence and violent acts than you'll ever have. Africa isn't a pretty place when it comes to that.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[StreetScooby 5]

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sort out your gun problems...

I read an interesting statistic the other day about the UK criminal court system. On average, a criminal will commit 10 acts before getting caught. It'll take another 10 times getting caught before he goes to jail.

Your country is the one with gun problems, and it's the lack of them that's the problem.

My wife is English, grew up in a small village outside of Huddersfield. We heard of a local farmer that was having problems with hoods breaking into his _HOUSE_. The cops wouldn't do anything about it, even though they knew who the hoodlums were, even after many break ins. So, the next time he was broken into, the farmer took his shotgun and shot the hoodlum with rock salt. The cops took HIM to jail.

Now that's FUCKED UP.

My father in law, may he rest in peace, used to lament how England was going down the toilet. He had similar problems with local hoods that would break into his shop. Cops knew who they were, but wouldn't do anything about it.

Break into my house, or threaten my family in _ANY_ way, and you're going to have several new orifices in your body, all of them 9 millimeters in diameter. And I'm going to make DAMN sure it hurts.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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No, its a little thingy thingy. Laugh

Did you think that one up all by yourself?

Actually, it sounds like he had help from an adult.

We are all engines of karma

[Brian3576 0]

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Break into my house, or threaten my family in _ANY_ way, and you're going to have several new orifices in your body, all of them 9 millimeters in diameter. And I'm going to make DAMN sure it hurts.

i can't think why people think of yanks as John J Rambo wanabees

[vortexring 0]

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sort out your gun problems...

I read an interesting statistic the other day about the UK criminal court system. On average, a criminal will commit 10 acts before getting caught. It'll take another 10 times getting caught before he goes to jail.

Your country is the one with gun problems, and it's the lack of them that's the problem.

My wife is English, grew up in a small village outside of Huddersfield. We heard of a local farmer that was having problems with hoods breaking into his _HOUSE_. The cops wouldn't do anything about it, even though they knew who the hoodlums were, even after many break ins. So, the next time he was broken into, the farmer took his shotgun and shot the hoodlum with rock salt. The cops took HIM to jail.

Now that's FUCKED UP.

My father in law, may he rest in peace, used to lament how England was going down the toilet. He had similar problems with local hoods that would break into his shop. Cops knew who they were, but wouldn't do anything about it.

Break into my house, or threaten my family in _ANY_ way, and you're going to have several new orifices in your body, all of them 9 millimeters in diameter. And I'm going to make DAMN sure it hurts.

You have a good point regarding the farmer being jailed.

Arguably you could say if we had laws allowing this, then perhaps the whole incident may not of happened.

But our laws are civilised.

The "hood" was shot in the back.

But then again, if we did have laws like that, would we end up being crackerjack cowboys like you guys?



Sorry - thats bound to piss you all off.

I actually agree with a lot of your pro-gun points - sincerely.

But the whole things fundamentally wrong - and thats what needs to be addressed.

It's not a "gun-phobia" for fucks sake! You can't put everybody who disagree's with you in this bracket.

Anyway, I'm more than aware of the serious and sensible gun owners in the U.S. They're fine.

But there's far to many dickheads cutting around tooled up - far to many

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[StreetScooby 5]

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i can't think why people think of yanks as John J Rambo wanabees

You make it sound like I'm an aggressive predator. I'm not. Far from it. I abhor violence. At the same time, I will never be a victim. My country's laws provide me that option, and if needed I will fully utilize it.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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But our laws are civilised

Yeah, civilized for the criminals.

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The "hood" was shot in the back.

So, would it have been different if he was shot in the front?

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But then again, if we did have laws like that, would we end up being crackerjack cowboys like you guys?

Having grown up in the deep south, I know alot of gun owners. As a rule, they tend to be extemely responsible individuals, even here in New York State. I have never met a "crackerjack cowboy". Have you? Or, did you read about one in the Sun? If so, was the article before or after Page 3?

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But the whole things fundamentally wrong

What's this "whole thing" you're referring to? I'm inclined to say, it is what it is...

We are all engines of karma

[vortexring 0]

You make it sound like I'm an aggressive predator. I'm not. Far from it. I abhor violence. At the same time, I will never be a victim. My country's laws provide me that option, and if needed I will fully utilize it.

[vortexring 0]

>So, would it have been different if he was shot in the front?

Indeed it would.

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But then again, if we did have laws like that, would we end up being crackerjack cowboys like you guys?

Having grown up in the deep south, I know alot of gun owners. As a rule, they tend to be extemely responsible individuals, even here in New York State. I have never met a "crackerjack cowboy". Have you? Or, did you read about one in the Sun? If so, was the article before or after Page 3?

Fuck off! I've been stateside enough times alright?
Guess who I met - but shit - must have just been my unlucky day right? We actually went shooting! We met them in your gun clubs!

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But the whole things fundamentally wrong

What's this "whole thing" you're referring to? I'm inclined to say, it is what it is...

[DaVinci 0]

While I like guns and support citizens rigths to own them.

You title makes pro-gun folks look to be crazy rednecks looking to double tap someone.