warpedskydiver 0 #1 May 25, 2006 Hillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:33 PM EDT The Associated Press By STEVE McMORRAN WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — Mount Everest pioneer Sir Edmund Hillary said Wednesday he was shocked that dozens of climbers left a British mountaineer to die during their own attempts on the world's tallest peak. David Sharp, 34, died apparently of oxygen deficiency while descending from the summit during a solo climb last week. More than 40 climbers are thought to have seen him as he lay dying, and almost all continued to the summit without offering assistance. "Human life is far more important than just getting to the top of a mountain," Hillary was quoted as saying in an interview with New Zealand Press Association. New Zealander Mark Inglis, who became the first double amputee to reach the mountain's summit on prosthetic legs, told Television New Zealand that his party stopped during its May 15 summit push and found Sharp close to death. A member of the party tried to give Sharp oxygen, and sent out a radio distress call before continuing to the summit, he said. Several parties reported seeing Sharp in varying states of health and working on his oxygen equipment on the day of his death. Inglis, who was due to arrive back in New Zealand on Thursday, said Sharp had no oxygen when he was found. He said there was virtually no hope that Sharp could have been carried to safety from his position about 1,000 feet short of the 29,035-foot summit, inside the low-oxygen "death zone" of the mountain straddling the Nepal-China border. His own party was able to render only limited assistance and had to put the safety of its own members first, Inglis said Wednesday. "I walked past David but only because there were far more experienced and effective people than myself to help him," Inglis said. "It was a phenomenally extreme environment; it was an incredibly cold day." The temperature was minus 100 at 7 a.m. on the summit, he said. Hillary and Sherpa Tenzing Norgay in 1953 became the first mountaineers to reach Everest's summit. Hillary said in an interview published Wednesday in a New Zealand newspaper that some climbers today did not care about the welfare of others. "There have been a number of occasions when people have been neglected and left to die and I don't regard this as a correct philosophy," he told the Otago Daily Times. "I think the whole attitude toward climbing Mount Everest has become rather horrifying. The people just want to get to the top," he told the newspaper. Hillary told New Zealand Press Association he would have abandoned his own pioneering climb to save another's life. "It was wrong if there was a man suffering altitude problems and was huddled under a rock, just to lift your hat, say 'good morning' and pass on by," he said. He said that his expedition, "would never for a moment have left one of the members or a group of members just lie there and die while they plugged on towards the summit." Three climbers, from Brazil, Russia and France, died descending Everest in separate expeditions in the past week, a Chinese official said Tuesday. More than 1,500 climbers have reached the summit of Mount Everest in the last 53 years and some 190 have died trying. Quote I guess selfish, rotten fucks aren't just limited to other more familiar sports Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Richards 0 #2 May 25, 2006 Wow. That's pretty cold blooded. Richards My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #3 May 25, 2006 QuoteHillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:33 PM EDT The Associated Press By STEVE McMORRAN I guess selfish, rotten fucks aren't just limited to other more familiar sports Climbing in that environment is a very difficult thing. Your body is still dying even under the best of circumstances at that altitude. Normally I'm reluctant to rip climbers (used to be one) for those sorts of decisions because they normally don't come very easily. But in this case, Everest has become the playground of the rich. If you can buy the permissions and the guides they'll haul your unqualified ass up there. No doubt that many of the more experienced climbers on the climb that day had a bunch of clients that they had to babysit up and down the mountain so I don't blame those guys for saving the many and leaving the few. What a crappy thing to happen. I need to look into this one some more. You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #4 May 25, 2006 QuoteWow. That's pretty cold blooded. Richards Welcome to the "me" generation... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #5 May 25, 2006 Quote You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Deaths in our sport don't make that great an impression either. It's the pull of the mountain for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #6 May 25, 2006 I am sure that if I saw anyone get injured or even die on a jump, I would not hesitate to render any assisitance I could. I would also remember who walked by without doing ANYTHING. To those people and I use that term loosley: YOUR DAY WILL COME Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #7 May 25, 2006 QuoteQuote You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Deaths in our sport don't make that great an impression either. It's the pull of the mountain for them. I understand the allure of the mountain. But Everest used to be a goal that people worked and trained YEARS before they would attempt. I wonder how many people on the mountain this season had climbed Rainier, or any of the volcanoes in Mexico, or Aconcagua. I'm willing to bet that most of the clients probably went from Rainier or some trekking in the alps and then bought their way up Everest. I mean hell, they've already brought a Polish Playboy model up there this year. Maybe I'm prejudging her ability, maybe not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #8 May 25, 2006 QuoteI am sure that if I saw anyone get injured or even die on a jump, I would not hesitate to render any assisitance I could. It's really a bad analogy. How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an unconscious skydiver?.. Would you chop your main and chase? 1500ft? 1,000ft? 500ft? Or would you think: Hope he has a CYPRES - Should've had a CYPRES? Mountaineers attempting everest & similar take up sufficient equipment & supplies for themselves. ANY extra they take is THEIR safety margin. Invariably, they operate on a slim or non-existent margin. BEFORE they render any assistance, they have to weigh the risk to themselves. In effect, should they help a stranger at the probable cost of their own life? Throw in tiredness, oxygen deprivation, cold etc... and you can see that unless someone actually falls into their tent, they won't deviate from their program to help. That'll only raise the death toll. I know it seems callous, but that's life in an extreme environment, whether it's 20,000ft up a mountain or half way across an Antarctic trek. You look after #1 first. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #9 May 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Deaths in our sport don't make that great an impression either. It's the pull of the mountain for them. I understand the allure of the mountain. But Everest used to be a goal that people worked and trained YEARS before they would attempt. I wonder how many people on the mountain this season had climbed Rainier, or any of the volcanoes in Mexico, or Aconcagua. I'm willing to bet that most of the clients probably went from Rainier or some trekking in the alps and then bought their way up Everest. I mean hell, they've already brought a Polish Playboy model up there this year. Maybe I'm prejudging her ability, maybe not. The funny thing is that she was probably in far superior physical condition than the majority of the climbers...and not hard to look at at base camp either Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #10 May 25, 2006 This is why it is more dangerous to go as part of a guided group. I mean, you are just another body to the climbers on your team. If this guy was up there with a partner that he had climbed with for years, likely a heroic effort by his partner could have saved him. Read 'Touching the Void' for a great example. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #11 May 25, 2006 It's really a bad analogy. How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an unconscious skydiver?.. Would you chop your main and chase? 1500ft? 1,000ft? 500ft? Or would you think: Hope he has a CYPRES - Should've had a CYPRES?Quote I know people who would, or may have for all I know, but nobody would ever know, because they would never say anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #12 May 25, 2006 QuoteMountaineers attempting everest & similar take up sufficient equipment & supplies for themselves. ANY extra they take is THEIR safety margin. Invariably, they operate on a slim or non-existent margin........ and so on. It's a good post. I have no idea what to do in that situation until I'm in it. I only know what I'd like to think I'd do. I personally think it's gross that anyone would walk by someone dying. But I have no idea what's going on in these guys' heads and bodies. It's pretty arrogant to pass judgement unless one is a high altitude climber of experience and understands the environment and the effects on one's thinking and judgement. Hillary is definitely qualified, the armchair judges in the Lazyboys - I take that swagger with a grain of salt. Hillary is also an old guy with likely inflated memories of his previous abilities too. One thing I do know, these solo climbers may have a need to satify their egos and the climbs are impressive, but it's stupid to go without partners you trust. 40 people walked by, some offered help. Do we know if the climber refused help? Do we know if most of the 40 thought "that guy's resting, I suspect his partners will be by soon)? or even - "oh, look at the funny rock mirage, I wish I could focus my eyes and stop coughing up blood....." One group stopped to help. How many of the 40 walked by at that point and noted "there's a group of guys helping one of their own. I should keep going" I wonder if it's equivalent to someone who is almost out of air under water to stop their ascent to the surface and try to save another person drowning. Or equivalent to jumping into the middle of a gun fight. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #13 May 25, 2006 I'd understand if they were on their way back down. However, they still had supplies enough to reach the summit. Had they decided not to continue to the summit, perhaps they would have been able to use the supplies they would have to go up to help the guy? I have no idea. Maybe some of the experienced climbers could chime in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #14 May 25, 2006 QuoteRead 'Touching the Void' for a great example. 'Dark Shadows Falling' also by Joe Simpson is an excellent book about the gross commercialisation of Everest, and talks a lot about the issues of death on everest. One of his core points is that, yes, rescuing a stranded climber during/ after a storm on the high slopes would be phenomenally difficult and often impossible. However, could you live with yourself if you didn't even stop and offer some basic human kindness to a dying man in his last moments? Just let him know you're there, he won't die alone and someone will be able to tell his family how he went. Is reaching the summit really that much more important than being a decent human being?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #15 May 25, 2006 Yes, Hillary is definitely a mountaineer of note. Is it really 53 years since he conquered Everest!? It doesn't seem so, yet Hillary must be in his late 70's by now. I'd guess that it's a while since he's been on an extreme expedition. It really surprises me that Hillary has said what he did. To the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been a single expedition which has abandoned it's own attempt in order to effect the rescue of another expedition! The attitude is that you're in deep enough trouble just by being there so you don't go out of your way to make it worse! If you take care of an injured or unwell climber, then he's almost certainly going to drag your expedition down with him. Do you just let him die, or do you join him in what amounts to a suicide pact? Of course, since Hillary, technical advances in equipment and clothing, along with the mapping of various routes, have taken the ascent of Everest away form the very edge of survivability it once was! I believe that there's even a route which doesn't require anything more than "hillwalking-skills" (and A LOT of sherpas)! In effect, a "tourist-route" which any reasonably fit person can manage provided there is sufficient support & supplies to sustain them. Hence, anyone with enough money can ascend Everest "carried" by an expert infrastructure in the same way that any AFF graduate can do 10 points of 20 way if they're jumping with Arizona Airspeed and The Golden Lions! HEY... With enough money, you can even spend 2 weeks in space with nothing more than a comprehensive safety briefing! BUT... This familiarity with Everest DOES breed contempt! While it's now known territory, it's still extremely dangerous territory and NOT simply the same mountain as your "local" 6,000 - 9,000ft peaks, only bigger. Mountain Rescue, which has now evolved to an extremely high standard with which we're all familiar, simply does not... DOES NOT... Happen past around 15,000ft. Once you're up there, you're effectively on your own. That's something the "tourists" just don't seem to realise. It's also not something which the companies offering vacations to Everest take great pains to point out! Of the 40 people who walked by, most would be lost in their own suffering. None could spare the resources needed to save the climber without killing themselves. The resources needed couldn't be got to the climber in time to save him. It's really "Can't Help" rather than "Won't Help". I'd have thought that Hillary would remember enough of what Everest was like to realise that. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #16 May 25, 2006 Quote It's a good post. I have no idea what to do in that situation until I'm in it. I only know what I'd like to think I'd do. I personally think it's gross that anyone would walk by someone dying. But I have no idea what's going on in these guys' heads and bodies. I read about one mental game that one climber used to keep himself moving at that altitude. He'd make himself take one step every fifteen breaths. If he didn't get that step in he'd have to take two by the time he got to twenty breaths or three steps by thirty breaths. It's a different world up there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #17 May 25, 2006 QuoteI believe that there's even a route which doesn't require anything more than "hillwalking-skills" (and A LOT of sherpas)! In effect, a "tourist-route" which any reasonably fit person can manage provided there is sufficient support & supplies to sustain them. Hence, anyone with enough money can ascend Everest "carried" by an expert infrastructure in the same way that any AFF graduate can do 10 points of 20 way if they're jumping with Arizona Airspeed and The Golden Lions! Provided the weather stays perfect. Once anything unexpected happens those people will be in a world of shit. I think a good skydiving analogy is the 50 jump wonder being told how safe and reliable gear is nowadays, and then going out and buying a Katana at 1.8+. Sure he can land it straight in given a big flat LZ but the instant the spot's fucked or someone cuts him off then he's hooking straight into the ground.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,079 #18 May 25, 2006 >How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? >How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an >unconscious skydiver? One of the main reasons I use a cypres for AFF (and why I think it's a good idea for everyone who does AFF) is that I know I would have trouble abandoning someone like that. I once saw a video of a good friend of mine getting knocked out during an AFF level 1 - and I know I couldn't have 'given up' on her. It would be a huge mistake, of course, and I know at an intellectual level that I should break off the chase at 2000 feet. But I don't think I could make myself do it. A cypres might make turn that into a non-fatal mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #19 May 25, 2006 Whether or not he was saveable is beside the point. If he was clearly dying it is all the more reason to stay with him and offer comfort.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cruzit 0 #20 May 25, 2006 Well not that I am experienced at the level of an Everest climber...but I'll add my two cents anyway. When you are climbing at the altitude of Everest, it takes everything you have to get from point a to b. It is not possible to rescue someone who is incapable of walking out him/herself. All of the people, Hillary included, who say...I wouldn't walk by...are not on the mountain. We can speculate all day as to what actually happened. But as in a skydiving incident, if you don't personally see what happened, you are left to figuring out cause. It is impossible in either circumstances to analyze motivation. If the climbers are on the way down when they saw the downed climber, it is likely they were running short on oxygen. I've no doubt they rendered the aid they could given the circumstances. Who knows, the downed climber may have told them to move on. Everest climbers accept a higher level of risk than average mountaineers, because they cannot be rescued under normal circumstances. There is a reason that there have been some 190 climbers die since the initial summit by Hillary. I don't fault the climbers on the mountain, they have an obligation to survive themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #21 May 25, 2006 Quote Whether or not he was saveable is beside the point. If he was clearly dying it is all the more reason to stay with him and offer comfort. DING!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #22 May 25, 2006 Even at the expense of your own life? You would do that for a stranger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #23 May 25, 2006 Until I am placed in that situation, I have no idea just how I would respond. One of the things that is commonly known about high altitude mountaineering is that people's mental functions and judgment are severely limited due to persistent hypoxia, etc. Not to mental the physical toll that it places upon people. Altitudes above 8,000 meters are extreme situations that places extreme tolls on people. For most, it is their FIRST time being in that situation. They guides are there to operate as people's judgment, since their own judgment usually cannot be trusted. Who knows what sort of rationality these people had? WHo knows what thought processes they had. I'd like to think that I would stop and comfort, but I can't answer it, since my logical mind at sea level can't be held to the same standards as my oxygen depleted mind at 28,000 feet. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #24 May 25, 2006 QuoteEven at the expense of your own life? You would do that for a stranger? "More than 40 climbers are thought to have seen him as he lay dying, and almost all continued to the summit without offering assistance." How can staying to comfort a dying man be a greater risk than GOING HIGHER to reach the summit, and then returning to the same spot?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #25 May 25, 2006 I would think that at the point on Everest that the guy was at it would be more dangerous to stand still then to keep moving. How long would you wait with this guy. Till you froze to death also? The coldest I have ever seen is the record coldest day in Chicago. It was around 1985. That was fuckin cold by my standards and that was no where near the conditions at the time that guy was dying on Everest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Richards 0 #2 May 25, 2006 Wow. That's pretty cold blooded. Richards My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #3 May 25, 2006 QuoteHillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:33 PM EDT The Associated Press By STEVE McMORRAN I guess selfish, rotten fucks aren't just limited to other more familiar sports Climbing in that environment is a very difficult thing. Your body is still dying even under the best of circumstances at that altitude. Normally I'm reluctant to rip climbers (used to be one) for those sorts of decisions because they normally don't come very easily. But in this case, Everest has become the playground of the rich. If you can buy the permissions and the guides they'll haul your unqualified ass up there. No doubt that many of the more experienced climbers on the climb that day had a bunch of clients that they had to babysit up and down the mountain so I don't blame those guys for saving the many and leaving the few. What a crappy thing to happen. I need to look into this one some more. You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #4 May 25, 2006 QuoteWow. That's pretty cold blooded. Richards Welcome to the "me" generation... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #5 May 25, 2006 Quote You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Deaths in our sport don't make that great an impression either. It's the pull of the mountain for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #6 May 25, 2006 I am sure that if I saw anyone get injured or even die on a jump, I would not hesitate to render any assisitance I could. I would also remember who walked by without doing ANYTHING. To those people and I use that term loosley: YOUR DAY WILL COME Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #7 May 25, 2006 QuoteQuote You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Deaths in our sport don't make that great an impression either. It's the pull of the mountain for them. I understand the allure of the mountain. But Everest used to be a goal that people worked and trained YEARS before they would attempt. I wonder how many people on the mountain this season had climbed Rainier, or any of the volcanoes in Mexico, or Aconcagua. I'm willing to bet that most of the clients probably went from Rainier or some trekking in the alps and then bought their way up Everest. I mean hell, they've already brought a Polish Playboy model up there this year. Maybe I'm prejudging her ability, maybe not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #8 May 25, 2006 QuoteI am sure that if I saw anyone get injured or even die on a jump, I would not hesitate to render any assisitance I could. It's really a bad analogy. How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an unconscious skydiver?.. Would you chop your main and chase? 1500ft? 1,000ft? 500ft? Or would you think: Hope he has a CYPRES - Should've had a CYPRES? Mountaineers attempting everest & similar take up sufficient equipment & supplies for themselves. ANY extra they take is THEIR safety margin. Invariably, they operate on a slim or non-existent margin. BEFORE they render any assistance, they have to weigh the risk to themselves. In effect, should they help a stranger at the probable cost of their own life? Throw in tiredness, oxygen deprivation, cold etc... and you can see that unless someone actually falls into their tent, they won't deviate from their program to help. That'll only raise the death toll. I know it seems callous, but that's life in an extreme environment, whether it's 20,000ft up a mountain or half way across an Antarctic trek. You look after #1 first. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #9 May 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote You'd think that 1996 would have left an impression on people. I guess not. Deaths in our sport don't make that great an impression either. It's the pull of the mountain for them. I understand the allure of the mountain. But Everest used to be a goal that people worked and trained YEARS before they would attempt. I wonder how many people on the mountain this season had climbed Rainier, or any of the volcanoes in Mexico, or Aconcagua. I'm willing to bet that most of the clients probably went from Rainier or some trekking in the alps and then bought their way up Everest. I mean hell, they've already brought a Polish Playboy model up there this year. Maybe I'm prejudging her ability, maybe not. The funny thing is that she was probably in far superior physical condition than the majority of the climbers...and not hard to look at at base camp either Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #10 May 25, 2006 This is why it is more dangerous to go as part of a guided group. I mean, you are just another body to the climbers on your team. If this guy was up there with a partner that he had climbed with for years, likely a heroic effort by his partner could have saved him. Read 'Touching the Void' for a great example. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #11 May 25, 2006 It's really a bad analogy. How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an unconscious skydiver?.. Would you chop your main and chase? 1500ft? 1,000ft? 500ft? Or would you think: Hope he has a CYPRES - Should've had a CYPRES?Quote I know people who would, or may have for all I know, but nobody would ever know, because they would never say anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #12 May 25, 2006 QuoteMountaineers attempting everest & similar take up sufficient equipment & supplies for themselves. ANY extra they take is THEIR safety margin. Invariably, they operate on a slim or non-existent margin........ and so on. It's a good post. I have no idea what to do in that situation until I'm in it. I only know what I'd like to think I'd do. I personally think it's gross that anyone would walk by someone dying. But I have no idea what's going on in these guys' heads and bodies. It's pretty arrogant to pass judgement unless one is a high altitude climber of experience and understands the environment and the effects on one's thinking and judgement. Hillary is definitely qualified, the armchair judges in the Lazyboys - I take that swagger with a grain of salt. Hillary is also an old guy with likely inflated memories of his previous abilities too. One thing I do know, these solo climbers may have a need to satify their egos and the climbs are impressive, but it's stupid to go without partners you trust. 40 people walked by, some offered help. Do we know if the climber refused help? Do we know if most of the 40 thought "that guy's resting, I suspect his partners will be by soon)? or even - "oh, look at the funny rock mirage, I wish I could focus my eyes and stop coughing up blood....." One group stopped to help. How many of the 40 walked by at that point and noted "there's a group of guys helping one of their own. I should keep going" I wonder if it's equivalent to someone who is almost out of air under water to stop their ascent to the surface and try to save another person drowning. Or equivalent to jumping into the middle of a gun fight. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #13 May 25, 2006 I'd understand if they were on their way back down. However, they still had supplies enough to reach the summit. Had they decided not to continue to the summit, perhaps they would have been able to use the supplies they would have to go up to help the guy? I have no idea. Maybe some of the experienced climbers could chime in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #14 May 25, 2006 QuoteRead 'Touching the Void' for a great example. 'Dark Shadows Falling' also by Joe Simpson is an excellent book about the gross commercialisation of Everest, and talks a lot about the issues of death on everest. One of his core points is that, yes, rescuing a stranded climber during/ after a storm on the high slopes would be phenomenally difficult and often impossible. However, could you live with yourself if you didn't even stop and offer some basic human kindness to a dying man in his last moments? Just let him know you're there, he won't die alone and someone will be able to tell his family how he went. Is reaching the summit really that much more important than being a decent human being?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #15 May 25, 2006 Yes, Hillary is definitely a mountaineer of note. Is it really 53 years since he conquered Everest!? It doesn't seem so, yet Hillary must be in his late 70's by now. I'd guess that it's a while since he's been on an extreme expedition. It really surprises me that Hillary has said what he did. To the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been a single expedition which has abandoned it's own attempt in order to effect the rescue of another expedition! The attitude is that you're in deep enough trouble just by being there so you don't go out of your way to make it worse! If you take care of an injured or unwell climber, then he's almost certainly going to drag your expedition down with him. Do you just let him die, or do you join him in what amounts to a suicide pact? Of course, since Hillary, technical advances in equipment and clothing, along with the mapping of various routes, have taken the ascent of Everest away form the very edge of survivability it once was! I believe that there's even a route which doesn't require anything more than "hillwalking-skills" (and A LOT of sherpas)! In effect, a "tourist-route" which any reasonably fit person can manage provided there is sufficient support & supplies to sustain them. Hence, anyone with enough money can ascend Everest "carried" by an expert infrastructure in the same way that any AFF graduate can do 10 points of 20 way if they're jumping with Arizona Airspeed and The Golden Lions! HEY... With enough money, you can even spend 2 weeks in space with nothing more than a comprehensive safety briefing! BUT... This familiarity with Everest DOES breed contempt! While it's now known territory, it's still extremely dangerous territory and NOT simply the same mountain as your "local" 6,000 - 9,000ft peaks, only bigger. Mountain Rescue, which has now evolved to an extremely high standard with which we're all familiar, simply does not... DOES NOT... Happen past around 15,000ft. Once you're up there, you're effectively on your own. That's something the "tourists" just don't seem to realise. It's also not something which the companies offering vacations to Everest take great pains to point out! Of the 40 people who walked by, most would be lost in their own suffering. None could spare the resources needed to save the climber without killing themselves. The resources needed couldn't be got to the climber in time to save him. It's really "Can't Help" rather than "Won't Help". I'd have thought that Hillary would remember enough of what Everest was like to realise that. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #16 May 25, 2006 Quote It's a good post. I have no idea what to do in that situation until I'm in it. I only know what I'd like to think I'd do. I personally think it's gross that anyone would walk by someone dying. But I have no idea what's going on in these guys' heads and bodies. I read about one mental game that one climber used to keep himself moving at that altitude. He'd make himself take one step every fifteen breaths. If he didn't get that step in he'd have to take two by the time he got to twenty breaths or three steps by thirty breaths. It's a different world up there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #17 May 25, 2006 QuoteI believe that there's even a route which doesn't require anything more than "hillwalking-skills" (and A LOT of sherpas)! In effect, a "tourist-route" which any reasonably fit person can manage provided there is sufficient support & supplies to sustain them. Hence, anyone with enough money can ascend Everest "carried" by an expert infrastructure in the same way that any AFF graduate can do 10 points of 20 way if they're jumping with Arizona Airspeed and The Golden Lions! Provided the weather stays perfect. Once anything unexpected happens those people will be in a world of shit. I think a good skydiving analogy is the 50 jump wonder being told how safe and reliable gear is nowadays, and then going out and buying a Katana at 1.8+. Sure he can land it straight in given a big flat LZ but the instant the spot's fucked or someone cuts him off then he's hooking straight into the ground.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,079 #18 May 25, 2006 >How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? >How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an >unconscious skydiver? One of the main reasons I use a cypres for AFF (and why I think it's a good idea for everyone who does AFF) is that I know I would have trouble abandoning someone like that. I once saw a video of a good friend of mine getting knocked out during an AFF level 1 - and I know I couldn't have 'given up' on her. It would be a huge mistake, of course, and I know at an intellectual level that I should break off the chase at 2000 feet. But I don't think I could make myself do it. A cypres might make turn that into a non-fatal mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #19 May 25, 2006 Whether or not he was saveable is beside the point. If he was clearly dying it is all the more reason to stay with him and offer comfort.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cruzit 0 #20 May 25, 2006 Well not that I am experienced at the level of an Everest climber...but I'll add my two cents anyway. When you are climbing at the altitude of Everest, it takes everything you have to get from point a to b. It is not possible to rescue someone who is incapable of walking out him/herself. All of the people, Hillary included, who say...I wouldn't walk by...are not on the mountain. We can speculate all day as to what actually happened. But as in a skydiving incident, if you don't personally see what happened, you are left to figuring out cause. It is impossible in either circumstances to analyze motivation. If the climbers are on the way down when they saw the downed climber, it is likely they were running short on oxygen. I've no doubt they rendered the aid they could given the circumstances. Who knows, the downed climber may have told them to move on. Everest climbers accept a higher level of risk than average mountaineers, because they cannot be rescued under normal circumstances. There is a reason that there have been some 190 climbers die since the initial summit by Hillary. I don't fault the climbers on the mountain, they have an obligation to survive themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #21 May 25, 2006 Quote Whether or not he was saveable is beside the point. If he was clearly dying it is all the more reason to stay with him and offer comfort. DING!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #22 May 25, 2006 Even at the expense of your own life? You would do that for a stranger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #23 May 25, 2006 Until I am placed in that situation, I have no idea just how I would respond. One of the things that is commonly known about high altitude mountaineering is that people's mental functions and judgment are severely limited due to persistent hypoxia, etc. Not to mental the physical toll that it places upon people. Altitudes above 8,000 meters are extreme situations that places extreme tolls on people. For most, it is their FIRST time being in that situation. They guides are there to operate as people's judgment, since their own judgment usually cannot be trusted. Who knows what sort of rationality these people had? WHo knows what thought processes they had. I'd like to think that I would stop and comfort, but I can't answer it, since my logical mind at sea level can't be held to the same standards as my oxygen depleted mind at 28,000 feet. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,108 #24 May 25, 2006 QuoteEven at the expense of your own life? You would do that for a stranger? "More than 40 climbers are thought to have seen him as he lay dying, and almost all continued to the summit without offering assistance." How can staying to comfort a dying man be a greater risk than GOING HIGHER to reach the summit, and then returning to the same spot?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #25 May 25, 2006 I would think that at the point on Everest that the guy was at it would be more dangerous to stand still then to keep moving. How long would you wait with this guy. Till you froze to death also? The coldest I have ever seen is the record coldest day in Chicago. It was around 1985. That was fuckin cold by my standards and that was no where near the conditions at the time that guy was dying on Everest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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rehmwa 2 #12 May 25, 2006 QuoteMountaineers attempting everest & similar take up sufficient equipment & supplies for themselves. ANY extra they take is THEIR safety margin. Invariably, they operate on a slim or non-existent margin........ and so on. It's a good post. I have no idea what to do in that situation until I'm in it. I only know what I'd like to think I'd do. I personally think it's gross that anyone would walk by someone dying. But I have no idea what's going on in these guys' heads and bodies. It's pretty arrogant to pass judgement unless one is a high altitude climber of experience and understands the environment and the effects on one's thinking and judgement. Hillary is definitely qualified, the armchair judges in the Lazyboys - I take that swagger with a grain of salt. Hillary is also an old guy with likely inflated memories of his previous abilities too. One thing I do know, these solo climbers may have a need to satify their egos and the climbs are impressive, but it's stupid to go without partners you trust. 40 people walked by, some offered help. Do we know if the climber refused help? Do we know if most of the 40 thought "that guy's resting, I suspect his partners will be by soon)? or even - "oh, look at the funny rock mirage, I wish I could focus my eyes and stop coughing up blood....." One group stopped to help. How many of the 40 walked by at that point and noted "there's a group of guys helping one of their own. I should keep going" I wonder if it's equivalent to someone who is almost out of air under water to stop their ascent to the surface and try to save another person drowning. Or equivalent to jumping into the middle of a gun fight. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #13 May 25, 2006 I'd understand if they were on their way back down. However, they still had supplies enough to reach the summit. Had they decided not to continue to the summit, perhaps they would have been able to use the supplies they would have to go up to help the guy? I have no idea. Maybe some of the experienced climbers could chime in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,564 #14 May 25, 2006 QuoteRead 'Touching the Void' for a great example. 'Dark Shadows Falling' also by Joe Simpson is an excellent book about the gross commercialisation of Everest, and talks a lot about the issues of death on everest. One of his core points is that, yes, rescuing a stranded climber during/ after a storm on the high slopes would be phenomenally difficult and often impossible. However, could you live with yourself if you didn't even stop and offer some basic human kindness to a dying man in his last moments? Just let him know you're there, he won't die alone and someone will be able to tell his family how he went. Is reaching the summit really that much more important than being a decent human being?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #15 May 25, 2006 Yes, Hillary is definitely a mountaineer of note. Is it really 53 years since he conquered Everest!? It doesn't seem so, yet Hillary must be in his late 70's by now. I'd guess that it's a while since he's been on an extreme expedition. It really surprises me that Hillary has said what he did. To the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been a single expedition which has abandoned it's own attempt in order to effect the rescue of another expedition! The attitude is that you're in deep enough trouble just by being there so you don't go out of your way to make it worse! If you take care of an injured or unwell climber, then he's almost certainly going to drag your expedition down with him. Do you just let him die, or do you join him in what amounts to a suicide pact? Of course, since Hillary, technical advances in equipment and clothing, along with the mapping of various routes, have taken the ascent of Everest away form the very edge of survivability it once was! I believe that there's even a route which doesn't require anything more than "hillwalking-skills" (and A LOT of sherpas)! In effect, a "tourist-route" which any reasonably fit person can manage provided there is sufficient support & supplies to sustain them. Hence, anyone with enough money can ascend Everest "carried" by an expert infrastructure in the same way that any AFF graduate can do 10 points of 20 way if they're jumping with Arizona Airspeed and The Golden Lions! HEY... With enough money, you can even spend 2 weeks in space with nothing more than a comprehensive safety briefing! BUT... This familiarity with Everest DOES breed contempt! While it's now known territory, it's still extremely dangerous territory and NOT simply the same mountain as your "local" 6,000 - 9,000ft peaks, only bigger. Mountain Rescue, which has now evolved to an extremely high standard with which we're all familiar, simply does not... DOES NOT... Happen past around 15,000ft. Once you're up there, you're effectively on your own. That's something the "tourists" just don't seem to realise. It's also not something which the companies offering vacations to Everest take great pains to point out! Of the 40 people who walked by, most would be lost in their own suffering. None could spare the resources needed to save the climber without killing themselves. The resources needed couldn't be got to the climber in time to save him. It's really "Can't Help" rather than "Won't Help". I'd have thought that Hillary would remember enough of what Everest was like to realise that. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #16 May 25, 2006 Quote It's a good post. I have no idea what to do in that situation until I'm in it. I only know what I'd like to think I'd do. I personally think it's gross that anyone would walk by someone dying. But I have no idea what's going on in these guys' heads and bodies. I read about one mental game that one climber used to keep himself moving at that altitude. He'd make himself take one step every fifteen breaths. If he didn't get that step in he'd have to take two by the time he got to twenty breaths or three steps by thirty breaths. It's a different world up there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,564 #17 May 25, 2006 QuoteI believe that there's even a route which doesn't require anything more than "hillwalking-skills" (and A LOT of sherpas)! In effect, a "tourist-route" which any reasonably fit person can manage provided there is sufficient support & supplies to sustain them. Hence, anyone with enough money can ascend Everest "carried" by an expert infrastructure in the same way that any AFF graduate can do 10 points of 20 way if they're jumping with Arizona Airspeed and The Golden Lions! Provided the weather stays perfect. Once anything unexpected happens those people will be in a world of shit. I think a good skydiving analogy is the 50 jump wonder being told how safe and reliable gear is nowadays, and then going out and buying a Katana at 1.8+. Sure he can land it straight in given a big flat LZ but the instant the spot's fucked or someone cuts him off then he's hooking straight into the ground.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,079 #18 May 25, 2006 >How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? >How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an >unconscious skydiver? One of the main reasons I use a cypres for AFF (and why I think it's a good idea for everyone who does AFF) is that I know I would have trouble abandoning someone like that. I once saw a video of a good friend of mine getting knocked out during an AFF level 1 - and I know I couldn't have 'given up' on her. It would be a huge mistake, of course, and I know at an intellectual level that I should break off the chase at 2000 feet. But I don't think I could make myself do it. A cypres might make turn that into a non-fatal mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #19 May 25, 2006 Whether or not he was saveable is beside the point. If he was clearly dying it is all the more reason to stay with him and offer comfort.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #20 May 25, 2006 Well not that I am experienced at the level of an Everest climber...but I'll add my two cents anyway. When you are climbing at the altitude of Everest, it takes everything you have to get from point a to b. It is not possible to rescue someone who is incapable of walking out him/herself. All of the people, Hillary included, who say...I wouldn't walk by...are not on the mountain. We can speculate all day as to what actually happened. But as in a skydiving incident, if you don't personally see what happened, you are left to figuring out cause. It is impossible in either circumstances to analyze motivation. If the climbers are on the way down when they saw the downed climber, it is likely they were running short on oxygen. I've no doubt they rendered the aid they could given the circumstances. Who knows, the downed climber may have told them to move on. Everest climbers accept a higher level of risk than average mountaineers, because they cannot be rescued under normal circumstances. There is a reason that there have been some 190 climbers die since the initial summit by Hillary. I don't fault the climbers on the mountain, they have an obligation to survive themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #21 May 25, 2006 Quote Whether or not he was saveable is beside the point. If he was clearly dying it is all the more reason to stay with him and offer comfort. DING!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #22 May 25, 2006 Even at the expense of your own life? You would do that for a stranger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #23 May 25, 2006 Until I am placed in that situation, I have no idea just how I would respond. One of the things that is commonly known about high altitude mountaineering is that people's mental functions and judgment are severely limited due to persistent hypoxia, etc. Not to mental the physical toll that it places upon people. Altitudes above 8,000 meters are extreme situations that places extreme tolls on people. For most, it is their FIRST time being in that situation. They guides are there to operate as people's judgment, since their own judgment usually cannot be trusted. Who knows what sort of rationality these people had? WHo knows what thought processes they had. I'd like to think that I would stop and comfort, but I can't answer it, since my logical mind at sea level can't be held to the same standards as my oxygen depleted mind at 28,000 feet. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #24 May 25, 2006 QuoteEven at the expense of your own life? You would do that for a stranger? "More than 40 climbers are thought to have seen him as he lay dying, and almost all continued to the summit without offering assistance." How can staying to comfort a dying man be a greater risk than GOING HIGHER to reach the summit, and then returning to the same spot?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #25 May 25, 2006 I would think that at the point on Everest that the guy was at it would be more dangerous to stand still then to keep moving. How long would you wait with this guy. Till you froze to death also? The coldest I have ever seen is the record coldest day in Chicago. It was around 1985. That was fuckin cold by my standards and that was no where near the conditions at the time that guy was dying on Everest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
