pirana 0 #176 May 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteAtheistic faith: The sudden appearance of all matter from nothing, by nothing, and for nothing. Actually, I tend to think that the existence of matter is infinite - that it has always been here and always will be, in one form or another (or something like that). Atheism very simply put is defined as not believing in God (or any diety). It does not directly claim, or imply, knowledge of the origins of the Universe. A person who is an atheist may have faith in certain things, and it may be appropriately or inappropriately placed depending on whether those things can be known or not. But atheism does embody not having faith in the existence of a diety. So yes, a particular atheist may have faith that nothing existed at some point in time (since such a thing is not knowable one way or another), but atheism does not require a person to hold faith in such an idea. Atheism does not require a lack of faith. It requires a lack of belief in a diety." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #177 May 31, 2006 QuoteSo yes, a particular atheist may have faith that nothing existed at some point in time (since such a thing is not knowable one way or another), but atheism does not require a person to hold faith in such an idea. Exactly. I think the only thing that can be assumed about all atheists is that we don't believe in God; our beliefs regarding other aspects of life are going to vary widely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #178 May 31, 2006 QuoteAtheism does not require a lack of faith. It requires a lack of belief in a diety. that's faith, not Faith, then I still put atheism up on par with a religion - only the it's even MORE self righteous and obnoxious and petty. It's a belief system concerning the existence of a deity when they is no way (by definition) to prove either. And any religion, including atheism, is a real waste of energy unless used as a tool to train people how to be decent. I see enough of this to see the value of religious beliefs in the populace. Though 'organized' religious continue to feed my distrust of any power structure. What I see in 'vocal' religious types (both the pro and the con) is mostly bluster and hype, not a positive used of the tool. So why mess with it. Go agnostic and just roll with the punches. Or raise the kids with a fair ruled religion to assist in morality training, and then let them in on the secret when they're older that they just need to be nice people or they'll get their butts kicked this THIS life. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #179 May 31, 2006 QuoteAnd any religion, including atheism, is a real waste of energy unless used as a tool to train people how to be decent. Atheism doesn't exactly fit the dictionary definition of a religion. And I certainly don't think of it as a religion; I just call myself an atheist because that is a quicker way of saying "I don't believe in God" (by about one syllable ). And I don't see how you would go about using atheism to teach people how to be decent. I mean, how would the idea that there is no god encourage anyone to treat other people well? Teach your kids what you believe, and perhaps teach them about other beliefs as well so they can decide for themselves. And if you want them to grow up with good morals, then teach them by setting a good example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #180 May 31, 2006 QuoteThis despite the fact that with anything less than the current state-of-the-art nueroscience advances, he'd be a vegetable today.Are you saying that science is now the giver and sustainer of life? Have you considered the possibility that your friend has had a spiritual experience, which science simply doesn't have the technology, and probably never will, to define as real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #181 May 31, 2006 QuoteI still put atheism up on par with a religion - only the it's even MORE self righteous and obnoxious and petty. It's a belief system concerning the existence of a deity when they is no way (by definition) to prove either. I don't see your logic behind this. Atheism is merely an absence of theism; nothing more, nothing less. For many, if not most, atheism is not a form of belief system, it's simply an absence of theistic beliefs. And you're wrongfully presuming that atheists are generally militant (or as you say, "self righteous and obnoxious and petty"). In fact, most are not; it's just that "the loud ones" get themselves noticed more. Many atheists are actually pretty quiet about their atheism in public, because (does this sound familiar?) the "whuffo questions and comments" get to be too much of a pain in the ass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #182 May 31, 2006 Quote I think that at least 50% of the people to climb would have to die on the mountain for your statement that ". . . chances are, you will die." to be true. Death rate is roughly 1 in 50 (attempts, not summits). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #183 May 31, 2006 QuoteIn fact, most are not; it's just that "the loud ones" get themselves noticed more. Now we're getting somewhere. Both sides I bet too, despite the militants on this site. A rose by any other name, I consider an atheist to be 'actively' non-religious (a religious position in itself). The agnostic is the one with an absense of a 'defined position based on faith'. Thus, the 'a' in a-theist is not meaning 'absense of', it means the 'opposite of'. (now somebody please go cut and paste from some on-line dictionary to counter an impression that doesn't relate to the text version.) I'm an apathetic - I don't care either way. It's very soothing. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,556 #184 May 31, 2006 Now you may be surprised by what I say here, but outside of debating on this site I never, ever think about god or the lack thereof. It is something that does not impact my life in any way whatsoever. When I'm going about my business I'm not chuckling to myself thinking about how superior for not thinking there is a god, I just don't think about it. It really is a simple absence of any belief. I don't see how it can be defined in relation to theistic belief. Put it this way - until I was old enough to go to school I had no concept of the idea of deities. I had not the faintest inkling that some people believed in them, I had never heard of them. At school I was exposed to christianity with hymns, prayers and talks from the local vicar. At no point did my absence of belief change in any way. For the longest time I thought it was all just an elaborate joke. So, before I knew of the concept of god and after I knew of the concept of god my belief has been exactly the same - nothing. So how can I be defined as someone who holds an anti, opposite of, religious belief?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #185 May 31, 2006 sounds agnostic - sounds like my position after a certain age until right now. I'm not surprised at all. it doesn't sound atheistic (in which I do imagine people walking around chuckling to themselves - you see them everywhere.) atheists have a strong belief which can't be proven nor disproven, they disdain or pity those that don't believe as they do, they are in missionary/recruit mode at all times, no matter how many they are, they always moan about being treated poorly, etc, etc, etc, - that's a religion in my book. (also sounds like a political party activist) If someone wants to label themselves as a-theistic (i.e., anti-theistic) when they really just don't care either way, then they can call themselve a-theistic, they can also call themselves Bob-istic with the same definition - it matters equally. (Except to language experts and dictionary authors, then it really pisses them off) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,556 #186 May 31, 2006 Quote sounds agnostic - sounds like my position after a certain age until right now. I wouldn't call myself agnostic when it comes to gods. I do not have the capacity to believe in that, or any form of afterlife. But I don't use that lack of belief to define myself in any way, I don't think of myself as 'not a christian/ hindu/ muslim/ FSM'. I suppose you could at a stretch call me agnostic as to the origins of the cosmos - I don't think we will ever truly know where stuff comes from, its too mind bending - but I consider that a scientific matter (the boundaries of our knowledge will extend further and further back in time) and so the word agnostic probably isn't appropriate.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #187 May 31, 2006 Gosh, you're starting to make us atheists sound like Christians - like we spend a lot of time arguing about who can call themselves a "real atheist" or not. Now excuse me while I go chuckle to myself about how superior I am to the wishy-washy agnostics and all the poor misguided religious folk. Oh, and I have decided to devote my life to promoting the militant atheist agenda, so I guess I should get to work on that... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #188 May 31, 2006 Same here... I never think about such labels because as you said, relegion only ever enters my head when people ask me about it (and that's pretty much...here). It's as nothing to me, really. So, well put. Thus the notion of being proud to be an atheist, is a mystery to me. I dont believe in dieties, so therefore I'm an atheist... I take no pride in that, it just is. . . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,556 #189 May 31, 2006 QuoteOh, and I have decided to devote my life to promoting the militant atheist agenda, so I guess I should get to work on that... Is that anything at all like the militant homosexual agenda. Wasn't that a fun thread for everybodyDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,058 #190 May 31, 2006 >Oh, and I have decided to devote my life to promoting the >militant atheist agenda . . . Yep. I can still remember you throwing religious symbols at people and burning crosses and stars-of-David at your last barbeque . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sockpuppet 0 #191 May 31, 2006 Hmmm.... Is we athiests/agnostics are so silly for believing that nothing turnined into the universe that we know today. What created god and where did he get all this material from. ------ Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #192 May 31, 2006 QuoteGosh, you're starting to make us atheists sound like Christians - ... I wouldn't think you'd take offense at a gross generalization. You're independent and intelligent such that you have your own mind and labels for whatever beliefs you have that this digression shouldn't be of note. I'm not making you sound like anything specific. Just the terms a-theist isn't what you guys are describing. By what you guys state, I'm an atheist, but that's just not the right term. Just like 90 percent of the people today that call themselves 'liberal' or 'conservative' are anything close the the original definition either. I'll stop here, obviously the label has some form of self image that the users like to apply to themselves and a discussion of the true meaning or not is causing a little distress. Sorry. I'm not a fan of semantics threads anyway. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #193 May 31, 2006 Quote>Yep. I can still remember you throwing religious symbols . wouldn't you through non-religious symbols at people - like circles, squares, triangles, greek letters like pi, and pie? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,058 #194 May 31, 2006 >wouldn't you through non-religious symbols at people. . . . Why would that piss them off, exactly? Any action is useless unless it pisses someone off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #195 May 31, 2006 Quote atheists have a strong belief which can't be proven nor disproven, they disdain or pity those that don't believe as they do, they are in missionary/recruit mode at all times, no matter how many they are, they always moan about being treated poorly, etc, etc, etc, - that's a religion in my book. (also sounds like a political party activist) sounds like a strawman to me. btw, it's a bit strange to call atheism a faith - they (I) believe there is no god because there is no evidence of one. I take nothing on faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #196 May 31, 2006 Quote>Any action is useless unless it pisses someone off. Now there is a societal statement about the current take on 'Freedom of Speech' if I ever heard one. Makes me think of morons protesting at funerals. Who here likes pie? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,058 #197 May 31, 2006 >Who here likes pie? Pie pisses me off. It thinks it's so good, sitting there with all that sugar and flour and apples and whatnot in it. Sure, it looks good, but it will kill you if given half a chance! Damn pie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #198 May 31, 2006 Quotebtw, it's a bit strange to call atheism a faith - Not when your neither fer it or agin it - the people 'actively' involved in either do the same things and have the same hangups. I'd call the fervor for politics some people have equivalent to 'religious faith' also. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #199 May 31, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't think you'd take offense at a gross generalization. Oh, I'm not offended. I'm just amused at how inferior you are to not understand the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. Ok, just kidding... Yes, the debate over which word to use is silly, but it's fun for a little while... The two terms are extremely similar, almost interchangeable. Maybe I'll just stick to telling people that I don't believe in God (if they want to know), and they can decide for themselves how they want to label me. Or maybe I'll tell them that I'm a Bobistic, and let them go look it up on wikipedia... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #200 May 31, 2006 Quote>Who here likes pie? Pie pisses me off. It thinks it's so good, sitting there with all that sugar and flour and apples and whatnot in it. Sure, it looks good, but it will kill you if given half a chance! Damn pie. It's just pie making a 'statement' which it has every right to do in this country. But I believe that pie has to remain 40 paces away from private property unless it intends to be eaten. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
