How about " I am an atheist, and proud of it?

[Royd 0]

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Call me unromantic but I don't see any reason other than blind optimism to think that there is going to be anything more after that. Of course it must be nice to think that there is, I just don't

I like these threads because it gives you time to chew on things.
As I'm hanging a new back door on my house yesterday, my dog comes up to me occasionally, totally happy to be near me. He's totally happy to lay under the truck for shelter from rain or sun. It's the same with the rest of the animal kingdom, except for the human.
Man, if there isn't something more to this whole thing, then we truly are getting the sh-tend of the stick.
We have to spend our lives building houses, planting gardens, preserving food, etc., while the rest of the animals get to just enjoy life.

[Royd 0]

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Absolutely. For one thing I've been taught from a very early age a certain code of morality

An overiding law of right and wrong.

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If I'm too nasty to people it makes me feel bad, and I don't like feeling bad

Conscience.

[billvon 2,991]

> my dog comes up to me occasionally, totally happy to be near me.
> He's totally happy to lay under the truck for shelter from rain or sun.
> It's the same with the rest of the animal kingdom, except for the
> human.

Well, kids do that too. And many people would if they didn't have to work. Heck, some don't - they live on welfare and are happy to lie around.

There's a pack of coyotes in our canyon, which are about as close as you can come to a dog in the wild. They live their lives on the move, hunting rabbits in packs, and howling at the moon at night. They take off like a shot when they see you.

If you raised them from pups and gave them a bowl of food every day, scratched em behind the ears when you got home, they'd probably be a lot like your dog. But these animals have to fight to survive, so they do.

>Man, if there isn't something more to this whole thing, then we
>truly are getting the sh-tend of the stick.

Are you really saying that the main reason you work hard, fix your door etc is that you expect a reward for it in the afterlife? I would fix that door because then my house wouldn't be cold. I'd take care of a dog because I liked the dog, and it's the right thing to do for an animal that you own.

Being a good person is its own reward. You can be a good catholic, protestant, hindu or atheist, so goodness certainly doesn't come from belief.

[kelpdiver 2]

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History says that they differ from each other enough to kill over the differences.

But when did Christians kill each other over a translation?! This is news to me.

M icro already pointed out the obvious in Northern Ireland.

Going further back, the lynchings and persecution of the Mormons in the 19th Century. Though they have their own bible, I believe they meet most, if not all, of the key elements identified in this thread.

Going further back - the killing of people who differed from the Church in any way - such as saying that the earth is not the center of the universe.

My conclusion is that some people here have it backwards. It's not evil science that is being held back by government and prevented from harming the population. Rather, secular governments have taken away the power of religion to harm and kill over differences of opinion.

[kelpdiver 2]

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> my dog comes up to me occasionally, totally happy to be near me.
> He's totally happy to lay under the truck for shelter from rain or sun.
> It's the same with the rest of the animal kingdom, except for the
> human.

Well, kids do that too. And many people would if they didn't have to work. Heck, some don't - they live on welfare and are happy to lie around.

I don't view my life that differently. I do have to work - but the same is true of most animals. I work hard enough to enjoy the rest of my time. And it makes me happy as I wish to be.

This past weekend was glorious. Work shut down at noon on Friday, so it was almost a 4 day weekend.

[Royd 0]

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Are you really saying that the main reason you work hard, fix your door etc is that you expect a reward for it in the afterlife? I would fix that door because then my house wouldn't be cold. I'd take care of a dog because I liked the dog, and it's the right thing to do for an animal that you own

What I'm saying is that the rest of the animal kingdom is taken care of by nature. The human life always seems to be far more complicated. We always seem to need lots of things to make us happy. The separation between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is phenomenol.

[Shotgun 1]

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If that's the case, why live by any rules or moral conduct at all.

It is disturbing (and depressing) to me to think that there are so many people out there who would not live by any rules or moral conduct if they didn't have a fictional religious story to tell them what is right and wrong. I believe the same thing that jakee does, and yet my life would simply not feel "right" to me if I treated other people badly. Do you honestly feel the need for some sort of "reward" such as heaven to make you want to treat others well?

[beowulf 1]

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I don't believe in any notion of self or conciousness that extends beyond the little electrical and chemical pulses firing around our brains. And when I die my synapses will stop making those little pulses and there won't be any me anymore.

Wow...
That's depressing.

Added: If that's the case, why live by any rules or moral conduct at all.

Why do you assume that because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no morals and no motivation to be a good person?? Does that mean you would have no morals or rules if it were not for your belief in God?

[billvon 2,991]

>What I'm saying is that the rest of the animal kingdom is taken '
>care of by nature.

Something like 90% of all rabbits that are born are torn to bits (by hawks, coyotes, cats etc) before they even reach reproductive age. Sure, nature "takes care" of animals, but for the most part "taking care of" means starvation, being eaten, dying from disease etc.

Nature would be happy to "take care" of us the same way. Since we don't like those outcomes, we work to change them.

>The human life always seems to be far more complicated. We
>always seem to need lots of things to make us happy.

That is our choice, and that's our culture, not anything innate. I once spent a few weeks in sub-saharan africa with people who had absolutely nothing compared to us. One of the happiest group of people I have ever met.

Happens in animals too. Feed a dog all it wants for years, then start just feeding it what it needs to survive. You will find yourself with a very whiny, unhappy, hungry dog who can't understand why he/she is being starved.

>The separation between humans and the rest of the animal
>kingdom is phenomenol.

Only because we have created that separation.

[pajarito 0]

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Why do you assume that because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no morals and no motivation to be a good person?? Does that mean you would have no morals or rules if it were not for your belief in God?

How do you go from what I said: "If that's the case, why live by any rules or moral conduct at all."

To what you said I assumed by saying what I said: "Why do you assume that because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no morals and no motivation to be a good person??"

[beowulf 1]

I took your statment ("If that's the case, why live by any rules or moral conduct at all.") to mean that because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no reason to live by any "rules or moral conduct at all". Is that not what you meant?

[pajarito 0]

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I took your statment ("If that's the case, why live by any rules or moral conduct at all.") to mean that because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no reason to live by any "rules or moral conduct at all". Is that not what you meant?

THIS:
"Why do you assume that because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no morals and no motivation to be a good person??"

IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM:
"because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no reason to live by any "rules or moral conduct at all"

[beowulf 1]

hmm yes we do see things very differently I don't see that much of a difference. Maybe that is because I have had many people who are christian or profess to be christian tell me that because I don't believe in God that I am in immoral person.

[pajarito 0]

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hmm yes we do see things very differently I don't see that much of a difference. Maybe that is because I have had many people who are christian or profess to be christian tell me that because I don't believe in God that I am in immoral person.

I don't believe that at all. There are many people who do not believe in God who are also very moral. I believe God's law of right & wrong is written on the hearts of everyone. Whether they choose to listen to that or not is a whole other matter. My Brother-in-law & Sister-in-law are both Atheists and they're some of the most moral people I know. When one is speaking of God's standard of moral perfection, however, we all fall short.

[kelpdiver 2]

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How do you go from what I said: "If that's the case, why live by any rules or moral conduct at all."

To what you said I assumed by saying what I said: "Why do you assume that because someone doesn't believe in God that they have no morals and no motivation to be a good person??"

I'm not seeing the difference either.

I just chose to ignore the question.

[pajarito 0]

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I just chose to ignore the question.

That's what I should do with this whole website.
It's like watching a train wreck, though and I have an addictive personality. It's a living hell.

[jakee 1,489]

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Absolutely. For one thing I've been taught from a very early age a certain code of morality

An overiding law of right and wrong.

Nope. Just a mix of my parents' and society as a whole's view on what is right and what is wrong with dash of my own interpretation mixed in. There are many areas of the world today where practices normal to its inhabitants would be repulsive to me. Similarly there are many people who would consider me to be totally immoral and conducting the work of the antichrist.

I don't see an overriding law.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Royd 0]

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I don't see an overriding law.

Let me give you a scenerio.
You have a son. One day he comes home with a bicycle. You know that he doesn't have enough money to buy it. You ask him where he got it , and he says that he saw it leaning against a house, noone was using it, and he liked it. So now it's his.
Do you simply tell him to take it back, without any explaination?
Do you tell him that he is stealing, and taking what belongs to someone else is wrong?
Do you say his moral compass is as good as yours so there shouldn't be a problem with him keeping the bike?
If you do the truly moral thing, you have become the overriding authority.
When he asks you where you got the idea that stealing is wrong, who are you going to quote as your authority?
If you follow that line of authority you eventually have to come to the foundation of all law.

[jakee 1,489]

Morality in Jesus' time as per the OT is in many ways very different from my personal morality.

Society's definitions of right and wrong are constantly changing. If I trace my personal 'line of authority' I will undoubtedly reach people who thought it was just dandy to burn witches, torture heretics, stone adulteresses and give human sacrifices to ensure the changing of the seasons. I wouldn't feel too good about teaching that to any kids I might end up with

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[niolosoiale 0]

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Do you simply tell him to take it back, without any explaination?

No you tell him to take it back because it likely belonged to someone else. Obviously someone else must have put it there.

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Do you tell him that he is stealing, and taking what belongs to someone else is wrong?

Yes

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Do you say his moral compass is as good as yours so there shouldn't be a problem with him keeping the bike?

If you allow him to keep the bike, then you yourself have no sense of objection against stealing that is strong enough to persuade you to not do it, and keep him from doing it. According to society, this would be "immoral". Society says "don't steal" even if the bible didn't.

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If you do the truly moral thing, you have become the overriding authority.

You are the kids parent. You have a responsibility to raise him. Ideally, you should raise him to not do things like steal. You are taking corrective measures by having him take it back, and explaining why he shouldn't steal.

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When he asks you where you got the idea that stealing is wrong, who are you going to quote as your authority?

You don't have to quote anyone. If he won't listen to you, why would he listen to someone else? If he's listening to someone else in this situation, you are failing as a parent. A simple explanation of why you shouldn't take things from other people, with the example of whether or not he would like someone precious of his to be stolen should drive the point home. All that and you didn't even have to quote the bible.

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If you follow that line of authority you eventually have to come to the foundation of all law.

The foundation of all law that you speak of is simply a result of the natural progression of society to develop a code to live by which, through trial and error, has came up with a list of things you shouldn't do as they either harm others or infringe on other's so-called "rights". It's nothing that is uniquely "god-inspired". It would happen anyway. Phil finds rock. Phil likes rock. Phil takes rock for his own. Bob takes Phil's rock. Phil knocks Bob upside the head because Phil don't like Bob taking his rock. The product of the consequences is that taking things that people say don't belong to you, will result in punishment. You've just established moral code.

Of course this brings up questions of ownership which the answer comes down to this. You own whatever you say you own so long as you can reasonably enforce your ownership whether with help or not. But that's another thread.

[pajarito 0]

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The foundation of all law that you speak of is simply a result of the natural progression of society to develop a code to live by which, through trial and error, has came up with a list of things you shouldn't do as they either harm others or infringe on other's so-called "rights". It's nothing that is uniquely "god-inspired". It would happen anyway. Phil finds rock. Phil likes rock. Phil takes rock for his own. Bob takes Phil's rock. Phil knocks Bob upside the head because Phil don't like Bob taking his rock. The product of the consequences is that taking things that people say don't belong to you, will result in punishment. You've just established moral code.

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For example, some people wrote to me saying, ‘isn’t what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn’t it been developed just like all our other instincts?’ Now I do not deny that we may have a herd instinct: but that is not what I mean by the Moral Law. We all know what it feels like to be prompted by instinct – by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires – one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.
--C.S. Lewis

[Royd 0]

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I will undoubtedly reach people who thought it was just dandy to burn witches

What's a witch, Daddy?

[Royd 0]

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But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not

Boy, do we ever have a recent example of that. People walked right by a dying man on Mt. Everest in order to get to the top. Now, there's an example of a moral compass pointing in the right direction. I'm not saying that they were atheists. It's just wrong.

[pajarito 0]

That was ridiculous. I couldn't believe that happened.

[Royd 0]

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It's like watching a train wreck, though and I have an addictive personality. It's a living hell.

Yea, I'm thinkin' that I'm going to need a 12 step program to recover from this!