Killing Innocents to Frame the Enemy...

[Trent 0]

Nah... the virtuous terrorists would NEVER do anything like that!! We DEFINITELY want to make sure that the media and the public believe the story from the unbiased "witnesses" from the terrorist side BEFORE giving the benefit of the doubt to those who actually TRY to do things the right way.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

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JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An explosion on a Gaza beach that killed seven people last week was caused by explosives planted there by Palestinian militants, not artillery fire from an Israeli navy gunboat, Israeli military sources said.

The Israeli investigation concluded that the possibility any of the six artillery shells fired from the gunboat last Friday could have landed on the beach was "almost nil," the sources said.

...

Before you think, "OF COURSE the Israeli's would say that...", read the whole article. Then ask yourself... what is more likely.

Oh, hello again!

[mnealtx 0]

Not that surprising at all...

Faked Hamas funeral

al Dura faked film

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Trent 0]

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Not that surprising at all...

Faked Hamas funeral

al Dura faked film

Wha... wha... WHAT?!? You mean to tell me that bad guys would willingly LIE, FABRICATE, or SET UP a scenario that would put civilians at risk (or be made to look that way) JUST to make their enemies look like bloodthirsty monsters?? Are you saying that they'd use a media that is eager to report negatively AGAINST their enemies... as a weapon? SURELY they must have stopped doing this type of thing by the time the war in Iraq started... I mean... the terrorists, I mean "civilians with IEDs and AKs", seem too nice and/or stupid to try something like this!!

Nonsense!

Oh, hello again!

[Darius11 12]

I read the whole article and everything important that needed to be confirmed was done by the Israelis. That is not too comforting at all. History has proven over and over again that the Israeli government cares for no one but them selves. They will use any means necessary to get their mission accomplished. That has included torture, the murder of Palestinians woman and children, not to mention the murder of an American peace activist.

If the Israelis have nothing to hide why don’t the Israelis allow UN peacekeepers?

Why don’t they allow independent groups to research situation such as this one?

I was not there so I am not saying yes it was a shell from an Israeli battle ship, or saying it was a Hamas mine placed to fight the Israeli invasion.

All I am saying is Israel has a very shady past, and if they want to be taken seriously they should let an independent group research situations such as these.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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they should let an independent group research situations such as these.

good post - now, who's objective and independent?

1 - the UN? they are obtusely anti-Isreal, they'd assign Syria to lead the team who'd issue their report PRIOR to visiting the country.

2 - the US? what uproar would that engender?

In any case, whichever side one leans toward in the specific conflict, it shows the lengths radicals will go to to get the PR on their side - even hurting their own children.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trent 0]

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If the Israelis have nothing to hide why don’t the Israelis allow UN peacekeepers?

Then by that rationale... you must also really beleive that Saddam had WMD's and was in the process of hiding them over and over and over and over again... right?

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Why don’t they allow independent groups to research situation such as this one?

So you distrust the Palestinians as much as you distrust the Israelis? Fair enough. If they didn't have anything to lose... how come the Palestinians don't allow some independents to investigate from their side?

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All I am saying is [B]Palestinian Officials[/B] have a very shady past, and if they want to be taken seriously they should let an independent group research situations such as these.

Or it could be like that... Palestinians have a vested interest in making Israel look bad... Israel does not have a vested interest in killing innocent civilians. You can't deny that... and it makes things suspect.

Oh, hello again!

[falxori 0]

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the Israeli government cares for no one but them selves.

FYI, some of the injured in this incident are now in Israeli hospitals (and palestinians are taken care of in Israeli hospitals more often than you think)

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If the Israelis have nothing to hide why don’t the Israelis allow UN peacekeepers?

the UN peacekeepers are a joke. in the one place they were stationed (in Jerico, guarding murderers) they've fled as soon as they were threatened. I'm not sure i can blame them.

I don't know what happened there. it wouldn't be the first time Israel is blamed for no reason but it wouldn't be the first time civilians got in the line of fire either. its not so hard to hit civilians when they use their back yards to fire rockets from (more than 40 were launched in the past few days.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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Then by that rationale... you must also really beleive that Saddam had WMD's and was in the process of hiding them over and over and over and over again... right?

Wait didn;t the UN inspectors say over and over that there were no WMD? am i missing something here.

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So you distrust the Palestinians as much as you distrust the Israelis? Fair enough. If they didn't have anything to lose... how come the Palestinians don't allow some independents to investigate from their side?

It's not a matter of who I distrust. It's simple logic really. You have both sides of an emotional issue; The Israelis don't trust the Palestinians and the Palestinians distrust the Israelis. So have a multi national UN team inspect the area to determine the cause.

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Or it could be like that... Palestinians have a vested interest in making Israel look bad... Israel does not have a vested interest in killing innocent civilians. You can't deny that... and it makes things suspect

I think you are so blinded by the propaganda that you don’t even realize you are blinded.

Do you ever wonder why you never see video of Israelis beating Palestinian teenagers? Or why you never see video of Israeli solders firing live rounds in to a crowed of kids throwing rocks!!?

Israel gets a lot of aid even today from the US. They would not get that aid if puplic opinion changed, and some of the truths that do happen would be seen by the general public. Israel has a lot more to lose if all of their acts are publicized. The videos are out there but not shown on western media.

Now I am not saying just show the videos that are shown in the Middle East. What I am saying is the public should see both sides not just the censored side that make Israeli government look like an angel, and the Palestinians evil.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

You do a good job of looking at both sides for someone who lives in the area. I am not sure if I could view things as fairly as you do.


Quick question.

Going at the chain of events backwords for a sec.

Rockets fired in to Israeli by Palestinians

People got killed by an explosion.

Cause of explosion is either a mine left by HAMAS to fight the Israeli doing a mission which involved storming the beach, or one of the 6 rounds fired from an Israeli battle ship.


Israeli mission to invade the beach.

I am not sure if you know the answer or not but why was there a mission to storm the beach?

According to the article there was no violence before the explosion and the rockets attacks are in direct response to that incident.

I am trying to figure out what lead to the Israeli military wanting to storm the beach during a period of peace and non-violence?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[eph1eleven 0]

that can go both ways... whos to say "coaliton" special forces havent donned standard arab garb, trod into town, planted explosives, and called it "suicide bombers" or whathaveyou...

now you have your motive, go in, wipe shit out, because "insurgents" are out of control...

totally plausible.

humans are disgusting creatures.

[rushmc 23]

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Not that surprising at all...

Faked Hamas funeral

al Dura faked film

Wha... wha... WHAT?!? You mean to tell me that bad guys would willingly LIE, FABRICATE, or SET UP a scenario that would put civilians at risk (or be made to look that way) JUST to make their enemies look like bloodthirsty monsters?? Are you saying that they'd use a media that is eager to report negatively AGAINST their enemies... as a weapon? SURELY they must have stopped doing this type of thing by the time the war in Iraq started... I mean... the terrorists, I mean "civilians with IEDs and AKs", seem too nice and/or stupid to try something like this!!

Nonsense!

Suppose this would be as big an issue if they did not have a willing,drooling anti US media to report it?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

>If the Israelis have nothing to hide why don’t the Israelis allow UN peacekeepers?<

I wouldn't let anybody from the UN watch my neighbors dog FCFS

You are not serious are you?

Hell, the UN even has an anti Isreal agenda IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,070]

But wait - you're not suggesting the converse, are you? That the US would willingly FABRICATE or SET UP a scenario that would result in a deadly war just to make an enemy look like a dangerous monster?? Are you saying the US might use a lapdog media to make a case that reflected negatively AGAINST their enemies to garner support for a war? Surely they must have stopped doing this thing by the time the latest president was elected (you know, the one who was going to bring 'integrity' back to government.) I mean, our leaders are far too honest and straighforward to try something like that!

[idrankwhat 0]

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The Israeli investigation concluded that the possibility any of the six artillery shells fired from the gunboat last Friday could have landed on the beach was "almost nil," the sources said.
...


Before you think, "OF COURSE the Israeli's would say that...", read the whole article. Then ask yourself... what is more likely.

I haven't read the article yet so I won't comment other than to point out that part about the "six artillery shells fired by the gun boat".

[falxori 0]

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I am trying to figure out what lead to the Israeli military wanting to storm the beach during a period of peace and non-violence?

first of all, i haven't read the article (i'm too busy watching the world cup at the moment...)

I don't know what exactly was written in this article, but in recent weeks and even months, rockets were lunched from the gaza strips almost daily. so there was no peace nor quiet. true, it was mostly not hamas who fired them lately (and Hamas leaders were not targeted in response) but since Hamas is the PA now, they are responsible (just like fatah was when they were in control.)
I can honestly tell you that if no aggression will come out of gaza, no aggression will be aimed towards it. and if there will be someone to talk to in the PA soon there will be almost no israeli in the west bank just like there are none in the gaza strip (although rockets still fly out of there...)

so to answer your question, i don't know of any "plan" to storm any beach, there was no peace nor quiet in that area, and it is VERY frustrating that there is no effective way of targeting those assholes without risking the civilians they use as cover.
and i feel bad for that family no matter if they were hit by mistake by israeli fire or by their own people's idiotic way of doing things.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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I can honestly tell you that if no aggression will come out of gaza, no aggression will be aimed towards it. and if there will be someone to talk to in the PA soon there will be almost no israeli in the west bank just like there are none in the gaza strip

I can't say I agree with these assumptions! I'm not sure to what extent Israel still controls movement in gaza, I have to check, but they are still building a wall in a land grab in the west bank and they refuse to leave those west bank settlements that they are illegally occupying. Also, Hamas is the democratically elected leadership now. We should have greeted them as the new leadership and treated them with some diplomatic respect. It would have been a good start to trying to make peace. Let them do something wrong before you refuse to deal with them and take their money. I'll admit that they need to bring something in the form of compromise to the table but we put them on the defensive and essentially tried to get rid of them right off the bat. Personally, I think that we should quit sending money to Israel. I think it's about $12million/day. That will get their attention.

[Trent 0]

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Wait didn;t the UN inspectors say over and over that there were no WMD? am i missing something here.

They did, BUT they did so after Saddam had them kicked out how many times? I mean... by your logic... just having them kicked out is evidence that he had something to hide... right?

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It's not a matter of who I distrust. It's simple logic really. You have both sides of an emotional issue; The Israelis don't trust the Palestinians and the Palestinians distrust the Israelis. So have a multi national UN team inspect the area to determine the cause.

And many people don't trust the UN... especially Israelis... and some might say they have good cause to. However, the Palestinians could allow investigators to come see the crater to determine whether it was mine or a shell, couldn't they? They can also let investigators go looking for where the 6 shells went as well.

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I think you are so blinded by the propaganda that you don’t even realize you are blinded.

I MUST be blind... thinking that some of the most vicious people the world has seen (terrorists) would try to set up their enemies to make them look bad in press and world opinion. I'm totally blind and ignorant. That must be it.

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Now I am not saying just show the videos that are shown in the Middle East. What I am saying is the public should see both sides not just the censored side that make Israeli government look like an angel, and the Palestinians evil.

We DID get the Palestinian side in THIS SPECIFIC issue, didn't we? They say Israel killed innocent people on a beach picnic. Now we're seeing the Israeli response, which... if you're honest... isn't impossible to believe. I like to hear both sides, but that's just me.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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But wait - you're not suggesting the converse, are you?

No, I'm not... it seems to be that you're trying to say it... or trying to say I said it... or something.

And you're using the... "one side did it first" excuse again. Silly.

Oh, hello again!

[idrankwhat 0]

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We DID get the Palestinian side in THIS SPECIFIC issue, didn't we? They say Israel killed innocent people on a beach picnic. Now we're seeing the Israeli response, which... if you're honest... isn't impossible to believe. I like to hear both sides, but that's just me.

Actually, I'm not sure why this is such a big issue this time. Israel killing Palestinians is nothing new. They shoot 'em up and call them "suspected terrorists" and that's the end of it. They killed those three Egyptians a couple of years ago and their accepted excuse was "we thought they were Palestinian militants". And about four or five years ago they ran over a young female protester from Seattle with a bulldozer. All I heard about that was what I read on the BBC.

[shropshire 0]

<> How many times is this slant on the truth going to be spouted? They weren't kicked out - Hans Blix withdrew..

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As we were sitting around the table in my office, the telephone rang. It was Assistant Secretary of State John Wolf in Washington, calling to advise me that it was time to withdraw our inspectors from Iraq. No further notice would be issued and expeditious action was suggested.

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Late last night ... I was advised by the U.S. government to pull out our inspectors from Baghdad," ElBaradei told the IAEA's board of governors. He said U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the Security Council were informed and that the council would take up the issue later Monday.

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[falxori 0]

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I'm not sure to what extent Israel still controls movement in gaza, I have to check

in gaza? none. even the border between the gaza strip and egypt is under full palestinian/egyptian control.

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they are still building a wall in a land grab in the west bank

the wall is a defensive measure that is proving itself. i'd prefer another way, but as long as there is no one to talk to and thats the only way of stopping terrorists from bombing buses, then so be it.

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Also, Hamas is the democratically elected leadership now

so? the fact that they were democratically elected doesn't make them good (if anything, it makes the population who elected them worse).

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We should have greeted them as the new leadership and treated them with some diplomatic respect. It would have been a good start to trying to make peace.

oh give me a break... they still support (and carry out themselves) terrorism, they refuse to accept any agreement signed by the PA in the past and they still refuse to accept Israel's right to exist. step one in "making peace" is to accept already signed agreements.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 3,070]

>No, I'm not...

Good! For a minute there it sounded like you didn't trust the government 100%.

[Trent 0]

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How many times is this slant on the truth going to be spouted? They weren't kicked out - Hans Blix withdrew..

Are you kidding? They withdrew before the war, yes... but how many times were they kicked out or withdrawn because Saddam wouldn't let them have all the access they wanted?

Either way, using the rationale that Israel has something to hide because they haven't called in the UN to inspect the shelling would force you to think that Saddam had something to hide since he didn't give inspectors 100% access. If you're going to sit here and tell me that they DID have 100% access and were never removed before the last time before the war... you'll have to educate me on that... I just don't remember it going down like that.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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Good! For a minute there it sounded like you didn't trust the government 100%.

Not 100%, but more than I trust a bunch of terrorists... I at least give my country the benefit of the doubt.... which is more than SOME of you do...

And you still're trying the "they did it first so it's okay" BS... shame shame.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,070]

>Not 100% . . .

For shame! You are DOUBTING our government? I suppose you want the terrorists to win, eh? And they call Skyrad an america-hater . . .

>And you still're trying the "they did it first so it's okay" BS... shame shame.

Nope. More along the lines of "attend to the beam in your own eye before worrying about the mote in your brother's." Was in a pretty good book, IIRC. The world is going to laugh at us if we start claiming that others are misleading people for political purposes. We did so and then killed tens of thousands of innocent people; we should not be lecturing others on honesty.