kallend 2,038 #51 June 28, 2006 Quote We're spending billions of dollars to promote democracy (supposedly) but when the election doesn't go the way we intended then we ignore the results and try to remove the leadership. Tout ca change, tout c'est que la meme chose. Iran 1953 Chile 1973... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #52 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI say we build a wall around all of the middle east and let the jews and arabs/persians exterminate eachother...good riddance on all three....) Well, your plan sucks because there's one group in there worth saving -- the Jews. They are well worth protecting, if for no other reason than to enable their many positive contributions to mankind in the future as they have the last few thousand years. Their loss would be a true mile-marker in the demise of us all. Can't say the same for the opposition. There's some damn scary thought processes goin' on 'round here. I mean, thanks for the honesty but now I've got to get the hairs on the back of my neck to lay back down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #53 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuote We're spending billions of dollars to promote democracy (supposedly) but when the election doesn't go the way we intended then we ignore the results and try to remove the leadership. Tout ca change, tout c'est que la meme chose. Iran 1953 Chile 1973 Don't forget the US. I just can't pin the date down yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #54 June 28, 2006 QuoteFuck 'em, they're vermin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those words are disgraceful. you must be joking, you just finished saying the same thing. issues like this make it easy to spot the racists amongst us.....it is always nice to know which people have severely deminished brain capacities, makes it easier to understand some of their other posts.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #55 June 28, 2006 QuoteRight after the election (a democratic thing that we're "spreading") and before Hamas officially took over the leadership position the United States said "we won't deal with them", as did Israel, until such time as they renounce their call for the destruction of Israel, renounce terrorism against Israel and recognize Israel's right to exist - then they would be dealt with like any other country and the funds would be released to them. Fixed Completed it for you. Sometimes an incomplete truth can be so misleading as to be an untruth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #56 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteRight after the election (a democratic thing that we're "spreading") and before Hamas officially took over the leadership position the United States said "we won't deal with them", as did Israel, until such time as they renounce their call for the destruction of Israel, renounce terrorism against Israel and recognize Israel's right to exist - then they would be dealt with like any other country and the funds would be released to them. Fixed Completed it for you. Sometimes an incomplete truth can be so misleading as to be an untruth. Thanks, but I wasn't trying to be misleading. But that's showing that we were blackmailing the government in its infancy. There was absolutely no respectful diplomacy extended to Hamas and I think that was a mistake. At the very least we should have publically offered to meet with them as the new Palestinian leadership. Then, if things went to crap.....we go from there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #57 June 28, 2006 QuoteAt the very least we should have publically offered to meet with them as the new Palestinian leadership. We (the US) did. We simply said that, as a precondition, all they had to do was issue a statement saying "As a duly elected sovereign government, we hereby nullify Hamas's mission statement calling for the destruction of our next-door neighbor, we recognize that it is a sovereign nation just as we are, and we renounce the use of violence against it." It would have taken them all of, oh, about 5 minutes to do it. The international recognition, and the funding, would have poured in immediately. But they didn't do it. That was their choice, and their chance, and they tossed it aside. It has been said that Palestinian leaders never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Seems to apply here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #58 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAt the very least we should have publically offered to meet with them as the new Palestinian leadership. We (the US) did. We simply said that, as a precondition, all they had to do was issue a statement saying "As a duly elected sovereign government, we hereby nullify Hamas's mission statement calling for the destruction of our next-door neighbor, we recognize that it is a sovereign nation just as we are, and we renounce the use of violence against it." It would have taken them all of, oh, about 5 minutes to do it. The international recognition, and the funding, would have poured in immediately. But they didn't do it. That was their choice, and their chance, and they tossed it aside. It has been said that Palestinian leaders never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Seems to apply here. Yes, "we" did tell them what to do. We're good at that. On the other hand I'm sure that the Palestinians are wondering why "we" don't similarly tell Israel to quit violating UN resolutions, especially considering that those are resolutions that we *didn't* veto. Like I said in an earlier thread, you can't tame an aggressive dog by chaining him in a corner and starving him. It only makes things worse, unless of course you're looking for a reason to put him down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #59 June 28, 2006 QuoteYes, "we" did tell them what to do. We're good at that. That's an inaccurate characterization. We informed them that if they wanted to be treated like the representatives of an emerging sovereign nation, we would exercise our option to have little or nothing to do with them so long as their governing charter called for the destruction of another sovereign nation that just happens to be one of our allies, and so long as they actively promote and support state-sponsored terrorism against a sovereign nation with which we are allied. That's the same standard by which we've related to Libya, Iran, Iraq (under Saddam), Syria and North Korea. QuoteOn the other hand I'm sure that the Palestinians are wondering why "we" don't similarly tell Israel to quit violating UN resolutions, especially considering that those are resolutions that we *didn't* veto. Probably because for most of that country's history, if they had simply sat back and done nothing proactive relative to its neighbors, it would have been destroyed; whereas if those neighbors had simply left it alone, the region would have been at peace. Quoteyou can't tame an aggressive dog by chaining him in a corner and starving him. No, but doing so keeps him from gaining enough strength to keep trying to rip your throat out with any great deal of effectiveness. And so he's faced with a choice: keep attacking you and eventually starve, or leave you alone and be allowed to grow as a peaceful, sovereign nation in his own right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #60 June 28, 2006 Quoteor leave you alone and be allowed to grow as a peaceful, sovereign nation I'm not on either side of this issue. The way I see it, the Jews in Israel are looking for a fight just as much as the Palestinians are looking for one. Peaceful sovereign nations don't go sending their war planes over other nation's airspace like this unless they are looking to provoke something. Israel is as guilty as Palestine is when it comes to this mess the world finds itself in ... and why ... because of all these ####ed up man-made religious beliefs of the Jews, Muslims and Christians. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #61 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteor leave you alone and be allowed to grow as a peaceful, sovereign nation I'm not on either side of this issue. The way I see it, the Jews in Israel are looking for a fight just as much as the Palestinians are looking for one. Peaceful sovereign nations don't go sending their war planes over other nation's airspace like this unless they are looking to provoke something. Israel is as guilty as Palestine is when it comes to this mess the world finds itself in ... and why ... because of all these ####ed up man-made religious beliefs of the Jews, Muslims and Christians. The "peaceful sovereign nation" I was referring to was the hypothetical "aggressive dog" (i.e., Hamas) - I was saying that Hamas had a choice - keep fighting and get starved out, or stop attacking and be treated like a sovereign nation. Re: Israel overflying Syria's president's palace: read the whole article. Yes, deliberately overflying another country's airspace without its permission is usually a violation of international law. I say usually (see below). But so is one country engaging in state-sponsored terrorism against another sovereign country; in fact, that's an act of war, even if by proxy. Just as it's well-documented that Iran actively supports and aids Hezbollah, it is well documented that Syria actively supports and aids Hamas. And since Hamas engages in acts of war against Israel, that means Syria is using Hamas as a means to engage in acts of war against Israel via proxy. In agency/principal law, the principal is as guilty for the wrongful acts of the agent as the agent is (in other words, if I hire a hitman to whack my partner, I'm equally guilty of murder as the hitman is). International law allows cross-border military force in self-defense. That's why the US's invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 was perfectly legal under international law. What Israel did in overflying Assad's summer palace was to say to him: "Dude - we know what you're doing, we will defend ourselves against you if you keep it up, so stop fucking with us now before this gets out of hand." Seems like a pretty measured response to me. Edit: Oh, by the way, Assad is an ophthalmologist by training. That means he's a physician - a doctor of medicine. I'd be curious how his support of Hamas reconciles with the Hippocratic oath he took as a healer of human suffering. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #62 June 28, 2006 I don't support either side. I think they are both ####ed up. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #63 June 28, 2006 QuoteI don't support either side. I think they are both ####ed up. Hey, I don't have a dog in this fight, either; I just see what the facts are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #64 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteThis is an idea which I agree with you about. Hamas, being elected to lead, has found it cannot function as a legitimate entity. It was not allowed to function as a legitimate entity. Right after the election (a democratic thing that we're "spreading") and before Hamas officially took over the leadership position the United States said "we won't deal with them", as did Israel. Israel also cut off the $25 million or so that they collect every month for the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinians went for over two months without getting paid for their work. The US denied it but the plan was to make things difficult for the Palestinians to the point that they might call for a new election to replace the "ineffective" leadership. Pretty shitty if you ask me. We're spending billions of dollars to promote democracy (supposedly) but when the election doesn't go the way we intended then we ignore the results and try to remove the leadership. Prior to the election, Hamas had operated on a Local Government, practical level very effectively. This was the core reason for their election success. Right after the election,Hamas, as a responsible, legitimate NATIONAL government was expected to renounce violence as their primary negotiating tool. They did not do this and stated their policy was to continue their guerilla campaign against Israel (now with the resources and legitimacy of a nation state). Because of this, America, Israel, the entire EU (including the French!), Russia, and all the international aid agencies refused to deal with Hamas and stopped all aid and financial support! Even the Islamic countries refused aid beyond one-off charitable gifts in response to the Palestinian Foreign Minister making personal pleas. That is some consensus. I think it is the greatest consensus in the last 100+ years! Even me & GravityMaster agree!!! which MUST be a first! Hamas' response to their failure to act as a responsible government, one which would at least atempt diplomacy rather than violence as a first resort, and their CONSEQUENTIAL utter isolation was to use members of their paramilitary arm to supplant the police to increase their grip on political power! Thus the civil war erupting between the civil police and the "political-police". As such, Hamas have proven themselves incapable of government, and the raid on Israel was only the last straw! I would have liked Hamas to have succeeded as a government, but they failed entirely due to their own actions. Blaming the reactions of other countries and aid agencies to Hamas' stated policies is avoiding the root cause of the problem. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #65 June 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteI don't support either side. I think they are both ####ed up. Hey, I don't have a dog in this fight, either; I just see what the facts are. As hard as some might find it to believe, neither do I. But the reason that I point out the things that I do is because your recent post pretty much illustrates what I see as the problem. You can quote international law to condemn Syria, Iran or Hamas' actions or actions by proxy yet you defend Israel's right to break international law when it suits them. Both parties are screwing up and BOTH should be held accountable. And for the record, what Israel is doing today is way out of line...again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #66 June 29, 2006 Chemical Weapon Claimed to be used (from link) "GAZA (Reuters) - A spokesman for gunmen in the Gaza Strip said they had fired a rocket tipped with a chemical warhead at Israel early on Thursday. " The Israeli army hasn't commented except to deny that it had been on the receiving end of chemical weapons... So, now, I guess the question is: if they (Hamas/ Al Aqsa) did fire a chemical weapon, where did they get it? (Karine-A, anyone?) If not, what good would it do to claim they did it? And a second kidnapping victim was announced today - an 18 year old not involved in the military (that I know of...), and is being used as a "bargaining" chip. Don't these folks get it? There is going to be NO bargaining...any subsequent kidnappings are just going to bring Israel down harder on those in Gaza. Second edit to add that they are now saying Hamas/Al Aqsa has killed this 18 year old settler... Third edit: apparently, Israel has "detained" (i.e. kidnapped) at least 7 leaders of Hamas...and many other leaders of Hamas have gone into hiding. Man oh man... Ciels- Michele Edited to fix link ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #67 June 29, 2006 Fear Factory: album: Transgression "540,000 Degrees Fahrenheit" Witness a blinding light, Sudden bright light from a blast Pulsing radiation moving through cracks under skin Feel the fire in the wind Deadly kiss of scorching sands Not a prayer of hope or redemption in your eyes Hell exploded on this earth to take all thats alive Standing at the face of death Terror stealing your last breath Watch the firestorm incinerate you into ash! All that you know burns away into dust So many lives So many inocent Burn! Every particle returns to its natural form Ashes into ashes blown away just like the dust Heaven burning with the sky Hell is not the reason why Feel the firestorm melting your spirit into glass! All that you know burns away into dust So many lives So many innocent Burn! So many lives So many innocent All that you know burns away into dust So many lives So many innocent So many lives So many innocent [repeat] Burn! Live and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
