Vatican vows to expel stem cell scientists from Church

[billvon 2,991]

> like creat human life in a... PETRI dish! think of that! the indignity
> of that! or a test tube! a test tube baby! are we really created in the
> image and likeness of God? If so, our conception, where a unique,
> immortal, unrepeatable soul is infused into our bodies should not
> take place in some glass beaker somewhere in a lab.

Well, as you know, it's not literally a petri dish. But it is certainly done in a clinical environment.

But we accept such environments regularly. Heck, if a premature baby is born at 24 weeks, I assume you would think it worth trying to save it. (Me too.) We hustle the kid into a sterile stainless-steel-and-glass contraption, put it under certain kinds of lights, stick a bunch of tubes in it, and hook up enough instruments to it to launch a small satellite. And most times, we succeed and save the child's life. I think that's worth it, even if it is somewhat dehumanizing.

Also, a great many conceptions take place under conditions that are far from a sacred, joyous life-creating act. Often the act involves drugs, alcohol, the back of Dad's minivan, a marginal victory over some resistance to doing it etc. I think a couple that spends tens of thousands of dollars (and months of a drug regimen) show a lot more care, and a lot more respect for the sanctity of life, than many 'natural' conceptions show. But I can understand how you might see one as more natural than the other.

[Zipp0 1]

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if "nature" says you can't have kids, well, you can't have kids. and i don't think it's necessarily a good thing to do everything w/i our power to circumvent that, just b/c "we can." also, i think we have taken God so far out of the equation that it has made us very easy to do these sorts of things... like creat human life in a... PETRI dish! think of that! the indignity of that! or a test tube! a test tube baby! are we really created in the image and likeness of God?

What is wrong with a petri dish, or a test tube? Those are the tools that modern man and science uses to do such things as curing or preventing horrible diseases. God gave man the gift of science and the ability to learn and grow. He gave us the ability to learn how to allow people to have kids who otherwise could not.

Living with a horrible disease that could be cured through stem cell research is the true indignity. I hope that the scientist that eventually cures disease like parkinsons is a test tube baby, and I hope that stem cells are the answer.

The Catholic church is consistent all right - consistently hosed.

See what 12 years of Catholic school will do to you?

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[micro 0]

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The Catholic church is consistent all right - consistently hosed.

See what 12 years of Catholic school will do to you?

do we really need to let this discussion deteriorate this way?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Zipp0 1]

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Often the act involves drugs, alcohol, the back of Dad's minivan, a marginal victory over some resistance to doing it etc.

Ahhh...... memories......

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[micro 0]

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> like creat human life in a... PETRI dish! think of that! the indignity
> of that! or a test tube! a test tube baby! are we really created in the
> image and likeness of God? If so, our conception, where a unique,
> immortal, unrepeatable soul is infused into our bodies should not
> take place in some glass beaker somewhere in a lab.

Well, as you know, it's not literally a petri dish. But it is certainly done in a clinical environment.

But we accept such environments regularly. Heck, if a premature baby is born at 24 weeks, I assume you would think it worth trying to save it. (Me too.) We hustle the kid into a sterile stainless-steel-and-glass contraption, put it under certain kinds of lights, stick a bunch of tubes in it, and hook up enough instruments to it to launch a small satellite. And most times, we succeed and save the child's life. I think that's worth it, even if it is somewhat dehumanizing.

Also, a great many conceptions take place under conditions that are far from a sacred, joyous life-creating act. Often the act involves drugs, alcohol, the back of Dad's minivan, a marginal victory over some resistance to doing it etc. I think a couple that spends tens of thousands of dollars (and months of a drug regimen) show a lot more care, and a lot more respect for the sanctity of life, than many 'natural' conceptions show. But I can understand how you might see one as more natural than the other.

I think you'd agree bill that such conceptions are also not the "ideal" of which I spoke of earlier. I'm sure that God in His Heaven did not intend for you or I to be the product of sticky back seat fumblings...

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Zipp0 1]

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The Catholic church is consistent all right - consistently hosed.

See what 12 years of Catholic school will do to you?

do we really need to let this discussion deteriorate this way?

First of all, maybe address the meat and bones of my post, and not 2 sentences.

I said that because it is significant that I attended 12 years of Catholic school, and I think the church is hosed. I think the Catholic church is doomed without some fundamental changes. I am not some outsider with no knowledge of the church, or its teachings, but rather someone who learned the teaching of the church for many years.

And I am allowed to express my opinion, whether you agree with it or not.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[micro 0]

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a better explanation is that children have the right to be conceived in the act of the loving embrace of their parents, in the procreative act of intercourse instead of in the sterile environment of the lab.

Does that affect them in any way? If anything the children concieved in a sterile lab are more likely to be products of parents that are absolutely serious about their relationship and their ability to give a child a loving home.

That is a very, very good question... and I don't think the answer is always an affirmative one... in some cases, parents are so desperate for a child they will do absolutely anything for one, such that that child ceases to be really "human" and becomes a commodity or somewhat of a possession. and those aren't always the right words... "i want a kid so bad to make me whole" you'll actually hear some say. I'VE heard some say in therapy sessions! Depending on the person and the context, such a statement can be a very pathological thing.

Again, trying to have a kid at any and all cost is really not a good thing, IMO. I think the church is showing wisdom here.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[shropshire 0]

And now..... a rousing chorus from Monty Python.



There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.



.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[StreetScooby 5]

I'm struggling a little here with your replies, Micro.

First, let me say that I'm not Catholic. I was raised in a fundamental Southern Baptist church in the deep south. My mother was Church Of Christ who decided to become a Southern Baptist. I went to church 3 times a week (Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night) for a very long time.

I respect your beliefs, but I may end up saying some things here that could offend you because my beliefs differ with yours in some pretty important areas to me. Mainly surrounding the role of science in the evolution of mankind.

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no one has a right to have children.

Why do you say that?

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a child is not a commodity.

If this science reaches fruition, the body aspect for all of us could become commodities. The thing that makes us unique is our free will/soul. God gives us that.

God also gives us an incredible brain. So many times now the Catholic church has been proven wrong in limiting the pursuit of knowledge. Science and God DO NOT HAVE TO CONFLICT. Why does the Church keep making it so? There's some willfull ignorance in there somewhere, and I doubt it's on God's part.

It just amazes me that the Catholic church deems itself the voice of God on this planet. It is the height of arrogance in my opinion.

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but biologically, if "nature" says you can't have kids, well, you can't have kids.

Not any more. Mankind has used it's brain power to success, yet again.

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and i don't think it's necessarily a good thing to do everything w/i our power to circumvent that, just b/c "we can."

What about knowledge for the sake of knowledge? There is absolute beauty there. Why not pursue knowledge?

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also, i think we have taken God so far out of the equation

So, God being omnipotent and everything, how have we done that?

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are we really created in the image and likeness of God?

Nothing personal, but this phrase always gets my dander up. Exactly what do you mean by this? God looks human?

When I was 16 years old, my goal in life was to be a Southern Baptist minister. I LIVED MY BELIEFS EVERY DAY, WITHOUT FAIL!

Then, one day, I dared to question. Went to college, learned thermodynamics. Spent a long time seeking a new understanding of God with that basis. And I found it.

The English language is FAR from perfect. In no way can we expect to describe everything that is God in our language. Hell, I don't even view God as a noun. In my current understanding, it looks much better as a verb.

I emphased the word current because my knowledge will most certainly grow in this life. I'm going to allow it to.

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If so, our conception, where a unique, immortal, unrepeatable soul is infused into our bodies should not take place in some glass beaker somewhere in a lab.

The soul is. It's not created at conception. It's already there waiting to merge with the physical body.

I very much agree with you on the family aspect. Children need to be loved and nurtured, and once you produce one, it's your job in this life to see that happens. No execuses allowed, not even any reasons.

We are all engines of karma

[micro 0]

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The Catholic church is consistent all right - consistently hosed.

See what 12 years of Catholic school will do to you?

do we really need to let this discussion deteriorate this way?

First of all, maybe address the meat and bones of my post, and not 2 sentences.

I said that because it is significant that I attended 12 years of Catholic school, and I think the church is hosed. I think the Catholic church is doomed without some fundamental changes. I am not some outsider with no knowledge of the church, or its teachings, but rather someone who learned the teaching of the church for many years.

And I am allowed to express my opinion, whether you agree with it or not.

never did I say you can't express you opinions... i just get tired of debates that denegrate to such negativity and nonscensical statements like "the church is hosed."

just b/c you have 12 years of catholic ed. doesn't mean you really understand what the catholic church teaches. in fact, given this statement by you,

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Often the act involves drugs, alcohol, the back of Dad's minivan, a marginal victory over some resistance to doing it etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ahhh...... memories......

I'd say there was a fundamental MISunderstanding...

As for addressing the meat of your post, the tools man has created for curing diseases are morally neutral. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with them. It is what is done with them that is in question here. And yes, God gave us the ability to use science to help others, but not in an unlimited sense. Just b/c we have the knowledge to do something doesn't mean there is an immediate licitness. There are ethics involved. In everthing involving the human person, there are ethics involved. That is why in every hospital, in every research protocol, in every descision involving medicine, there is an ethics board, an institutional review board, or something to ensure that the rights, welfare and safety of a human being are not thwarted or otherwise trampled on. And in this case, the case of conception in a test tube, I'm arguing it is an indignity to the human person.

You're simply saying the Catholic Church is "hosed." How very cogent of you.

And as a parting shot, I hope that parkinsons and every other debilitating disease is cured by placental stem cells and umbilical stem cells and other adult stem cell lines, which are just as promising as embryonic stem cells... so there.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[billvon 2,991]

>I'm sure that God in His Heaven did not intend . . .

I think once you get into "what God intended" you kind of lose the thread. I mean, surely God didn't intend for babies to be prematurely delievered at 24 weeks either - but it happens.

[Zipp0 1]

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just b/c you have 12 years of catholic ed. doesn't mean you really understand what the catholic church teaches. in fact, given this statement by you,

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Often the act involves drugs, alcohol, the back of Dad's minivan, a marginal victory over some resistance to doing it etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ahhh...... memories......

I'd say there was a fundamental MISunderstanding.

I was attempting to be funny.

And yes, I absolutely understand the teachings of the church, I just happen to think that many of the teachings are bunk. Not to say that the church has no redeeming values - there are many church teachings that I still follow and appreciate.

But surely booting scientists out the door is not the answer. I really don't think that is what Jesus would do.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[jakee 1,490]

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That is a very, very good question... and I don't think the answer is always an affirmative one... in some cases, parents are so desperate for a child they will do absolutely anything for one, such that that child ceases to be really "human" and becomes a commodity or somewhat of a possession. and those aren't always the right words... "i want a kid so bad to make me whole" you'll actually hear some say. I'VE heard some say in therapy sessions! Depending on the person and the context, such a statement can be a very pathological thing.

There may well be some few couples out there who go through in-vitro who will not make good parents. However the same is true (and surely on a greater scale) for the majority of couples who can basically get pregnant on a whim.

What interested me was your talking of the right of the child to be concieved sexually. I'm not sure what difference it makes. You also believe that God still has the capacity to create a soul for the IV baby - in some way couldn't this be seen as his 'blessing' of the procedure?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[micro 0]

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I'm struggling a little here with your replies, Micro.

First, let me say that I'm not Catholic. I was raised in a fundamental Southern Baptist church in the deep south. My mother was Church Of Christ who decided to become a Southern Baptist. I went to church 3 times a week (Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night) for a very long time.

I respect your beliefs, but I may end up saying some things here that could offend you because my beliefs differ with yours in some pretty important areas to me. Mainly surrounding the role of science in the evolution of mankind.

Quote

no one has a right to have children.

Why do you say that?

Quote

a child is not a commodity.

If this science reaches fruition, the body aspect for all of us could become commodities. The thing that makes us unique is our free will/soul. God gives us that.

God also gives us an incredible brain. So many times now the Catholic church has been proven wrong in limiting the pursuit of knowledge. Science and God DO NOT HAVE TO CONFLICT. Why does the Church keep making it so? There's some willfull ignorance in there somewhere, and I doubt it's on God's part.

It just amazes me that the Catholic church deems itself the voice of God on this planet. It is the height of arrogance in my opinion.

Quote

but biologically, if "nature" says you can't have kids, well, you can't have kids.

Not any more. Mankind has used it's brain power to success, yet again.

Quote

and i don't think it's necessarily a good thing to do everything w/i our power to circumvent that, just b/c "we can."

What about knowledge for the sake of knowledge? There is absolute beauty there. Why not pursue knowledge?

Quote

also, i think we have taken God so far out of the equation

So, God being omnipotent and everything, how have we done that?

Quote

are we really created in the image and likeness of God?

Nothing personal, but this phrase always gets my dander up. Exactly what do you mean by this? God looks human?

When I was 16 years old, my goal in life was to be a Southern Baptist minister. I LIVED MY BELIEFS EVERY DAY, WITHOUT FAIL!

Then, one day, I dared to question. Went to college, learned thermodynamics. Spent a long time seeking a new understanding of God with that basis. And I found it.

The English language is FAR from perfect. In no way can we expect to describe everything that is God in our language. Hell, I don't even view God as a noun. In my current understanding, it looks much better as a verb.

I emphased the word current because my knowledge will most certainly grow in this life. I'm going to allow it to.

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If so, our conception, where a unique, immortal, unrepeatable soul is infused into our bodies should not take place in some glass beaker somewhere in a lab.

The soul is. It's not created at conception. It's already there waiting to merge with the physical body.

I very much agree with you on the family aspect. Children need to be loved and nurtured, and once you produce one, it's your job in this life to see that happens. No execuses allowed, not even any reasons.

Scoob... not one thing you said offends me in the least... they're your beliefs, and you're being respectful of mine... what's to be offended by here?
I'll address what I can... I have to leave soon to start moving into our new house... also, you raise some points that to respond to here would take volumes...

1. Persons have no right to children b/c children are human beings. No one can own a human being. You mentioned free will/self-determination. I don't own my kids. God has merely given me custody of them for a short while to raise them to adulthood. I say no one has the right to a kid in the same way that no one has the right to a slave. We're talking about person here. Not objects. I think the seperation of the procreative and unitive aspect of intercourse (by being able to have sex w/o kids and kids w/o sex, like w/ in vitro fert.) has helped foster this perception.

2. what this really gets to, that you touch on w/ the comment "If this science reaches fruition, the body aspect for all of us could become commodities" is this manicheanist dualism, this belief it doesn't really matter what we do w/ the "stuff" of our bodies, b/c the "stuff" doesn't really make us who we "ARE." Well, especially insofar as it relates to our generative capacity, that just isn't so. When our generative capacities, as man and woman, come together, and form w/ God's assistance another human being, there is something sacred going on.

And this hits on another point you made... I don't believe, nor does the catholic church or almost every other of the 26,000 christian religions, that when a new human being is created that god plucks some existing matter or soul-substance or whatever that already exists and puts it into the bambino. According to virtually all of Christian teaching and tradition (as well as Hebrew teaching too), a new soul is created at the time of conception. The universe is forever changed when a baby is born, for something then exists that didn't before... a new immortal soul. On here, perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As far as the cath. church being wrong on matters of science in the past.... heliocentricity and the like... these were not issues of faith and morals like the essense of the soul, the importance of man and salvation and morality... since when does the position of the earth impact ones decision making vis a vis the 10 commandments? Simple... it doesn't... and it doesn't here either... and so, IMO, the church is not wrong related to it's stance on when human life begins and how it should be created.

Why does the statement that we are created in the image and likeness of God get your dander up? from your response, it seems that you're looking at it backwards... HE'S not created in OUR image, it's the OTHER way around... Volition... Intelligence... Creativity... Freedom... etc... please explain further...

that's all i have time for, unfortunately... gotta go move boxes...

again scoob, no offense taken, and i appreciate your post. talk more later i hope.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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>I'm sure that God in His Heaven did not intend . . .

I think once you get into "what God intended" you kind of lose the thread. I mean, surely God didn't intend for babies to be prematurely delievered at 24 weeks either - but it happens.

no he didn't, but we should try to save them, shouldn't we... this is where you and I will always differ... I think it IS possible to discern the mind and will of God. It appears to me that you do not. Am I correct?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[slug 1]

Hi ZippO

Beware your messing with your soul for eternity. the big one know's allb & hears all even on DZ.com.

we've never heard of any dead folks coming back and saying that they didn't get what the church promised them.

Trust me my son I'll pray for your soul, if you end up in hell. READ the Waiver.

SC gotta love it. Guns, politics and religion
R.I.P.

[micro 0]

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just b/c you have 12 years of catholic ed. doesn't mean you really understand what the catholic church teaches. in fact, given this statement by you,

Quote

Often the act involves drugs, alcohol, the back of Dad's minivan, a marginal victory over some resistance to doing it etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ahhh...... memories......

I'd say there was a fundamental MISunderstanding.

I was attempting to be funny.

And yes, I absolutely understand the teachings of the church, I just happen to think that many of the teachings are bunk. Not to say that the church has no redeeming values - there are many church teachings that I still follow and appreciate.

But surely booting scientists out the door is not the answer. I really don't think that is what Jesus would do.

the church isn't booting them out. a latae sententiae excommunication is NOT some action taken by the church for something someone has done. If a catholic woman has an abortion she is excommunicating herself simply by having an abortion. there is a difference.

would jesus do this? did he kick out the money changers from the temple?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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no he didn't, but we should try to save them, shouldn't we...

Why? If God wants them to live they will, if he doesn't they'll die.

I don't understand how you can say certain medical procedures are okay, but others are not. At least be consistent.

[wmw999 2,447]

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the church isn't booting them out. a latae sententiae excommunication is NOT some action taken by the church for something someone has done.

That's not that different from Congress getting a raise because they didn't vote to reject it, isn't it? It just kind of happens automatically?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,991]

>would jesus do this?

If a cure was available for a two year old with spina bifida that would allow her to walk again - would Jesus do that? Healing the sick seemed to be pretty high on the list of "good things to do" in his book.

I think the argument over fetal stem cells will go away with time. Once we can better culture them, then we would potentially need only one (or a few) sources of them; they would then last a long time. Eventually we'll be able to culture them from one's own somatic cells.

[StreetScooby 5]

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...somatic cells.

What's a somatic cell?

We are all engines of karma

[kbordson 8]

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Great ... then I can reach for another goal that will get me excommunicated!

Love is bad - don't marry divorced guys unless you pay of his sins with lots of money

Knowledge is bad - Don't learn that the Earth isn't the center of the Universe. Don't learn that evolution exists. Don't even think about learning about genetics.

Self Deternimation is bad - Birth Control?!



Karen

Your post is so full of innaccuracies and invective, it's not even worth a rebuttal. How about really trying to determine WHY the Church is against divorce? birth control? instead of just railing against it in an irresponsible, ignorant way?

the catholic church is against love... give me a break. what a bunch of hogwash.

So.... point out the inaccuracies (sic) and invective?

Tell me why knowledge is bad. Specifically explain why genetics is bad (not just the tired stem cell debate..."But they're BABIES" )

Tell me why I have to committ so much money to the church for a tithe to have the church issue an annulment. I was told it would be "easy to get"... just pay money. (His wife was pregnant with another mans child at the time of the divorce... annulment would have been just a matter of paperwork.... but the money just made it dirty.)

Tell me why birth control is bad. IN A LOGICAL AND GLOBALLY conscious way. Not just for the sake of that one unborn and unCONCIEVED child.

When you throw out sanctimonious invective response.... expect to defend it.

Karen

[pajarito 0]

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>would jesus do this?

I think it's silly to apply WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) to situations which have no bearing on something Jesus actually did or demonstrated as an example in his lifetime. Otherwise WWJD becomes very subjective. I think it's overused and inappropriately used many times. A better one is WDJD (What Did Jesus Do?). Compare whatever it is you're doing to what we can actually show in the Bible to be the case.

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If a cure was available for a two year old with spina bifida that would allow her to walk again - would Jesus do that? Healing the sick seemed to be pretty high on the list of "good things to do" in his book.

However, if we must, I don't think Jesus would advocate healing the two year old infant in your example at the expense of the life of a less developed one.

[JackC 0]

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>I'm sure that God in His Heaven did not intend . . .

I think once you get into "what God intended" you kind of lose the thread. I mean, surely God didn't intend for babies to be prematurely delievered at 24 weeks either - but it happens.

no he didn't, but we should try to save them, shouldn't we... this is where you and I will always differ... I think it IS possible to discern the mind and will of God. It appears to me that you do not. Am I correct?

If God is omniscient, he would know about the premature baby. If God is also omnipotent he has the power to stop premature births. The fact that premature births continue to happen must mean it is either his intention for this to happen, he doesn't care or he doesn't exist. If he intentionally ignores evil stuff he can easily fix, then I don't think he is worthy of anything other than contempt, if he doesn't care then why should I care about him? And if he doesn't exist, well....

Regarding the Catholic Church excommunicating scientists; I don't see the down side. Science and religion are orthogonal concepts anyway. I'd recommend returning the favour though. We should stop delivering their subscription to Scientific American.

[kallend 2,027]

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What is the church's thought on in-vitro fertilization? Should all embryos be implanted, and if so, when?

If not, what should be done with the ones which are not implanted?

I'm sincerely wondering. I'm sure you know that I disagree with the Catholic church in this area, but, well, I'd rather know what I'm disagreeing with.

Wendy W.

Hey Wendy,

Guess who you're docking on at the TX POPS next week.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.