SkyDekker 1,465 #26 July 17, 2006 QuoteEvery holster involved AD I've ever read about involved a case of holstering, drawing or using an improper holster. Then obviously you didn't read the link I posted. It was a sherrif's holster and he was performing along department policy when the chain of events that led to the AD started.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #27 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd a guy sitting in a restaurant with a gun pointing at him knows that the gun is correctly holstered HOW? By asking. Its that simple. What were YOU taught about pointing guns at people?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #28 July 17, 2006 QuoteBy asking. Its that simple. if a stranger came to you and said: "excuse me officer but did you holster your gun correctly?" You will respond how? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #29 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd a guy sitting in a restaurant with a gun pointing at him knows that the gun is correctly holstered HOW? By asking. Its that simple. What were YOU taught about pointing guns at people? That it is the best way to kill them...er you know what I meant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #30 July 17, 2006 QuoteI'd rather be insensitive than have 12 of my students killed as a consequence of incompetence and crass stupidity. The Aggie Bonfire was absolutely deserving of a Darwin Award. And it still continues. This is why I have no respect for you. If only you knew the amount of PMs that people sent me stating the same and the amount of people that I've met at Boogies around the state and outside of TX that have come up to me and said the same about you for the same reason. Sorry you have no feelings or respect for other people's loss. I hope that you don't lose someone close to you and have someone treat you the same way.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #31 July 17, 2006 QuoteYou will respond how? By responding "Good question. This is a triple retention holster made by Safariland. It was designed specifically for this model of handgun and the weapon is seated correctly." How do I know I'll respond? Simply because I have had someone ask me that question. Not in the exact wording as you stated but pretty close.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #32 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'd rather be insensitive than have 12 of my students killed as a consequence of incompetence and crass stupidity. The Aggie Bonfire was absolutely deserving of a Darwin Award. And it still continues. This is why I have no respect for you. If only you knew the amount of PMs that people sent me stating the same and the amount of people that I've met at Boogies around the state and outside of TX that have come up to me and said the same about you for the same reason. Sorry you have no feelings or respect for other people's loss. I hope that you don't lose someone close to you and have someone treat you the same way. As long as there are people willing to be stupid and others willing to defend stupid behavior, people will continue to get hurt and killed by "accidents" that really are not accidents at all.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #33 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou will respond how? By responding "Good question. This is a triple retention holster made by Safariland. It was designed specifically for this model of handgun and the weapon is seated correctly." How do I know I'll respond? Simply because I have had someone ask me that question. Not in the exact wording as you stated but pretty close. Exactly as it should be, too many officers brush off the public as nuisance assholes, until they find they have caused ill will towards the police. I was also wondering how many officers remember to be polite in their interaction with people, as you don't know who you just might be dealing with, a member of the clergy, lawyer, former soldier, criminal, or just some working guy. It is something that some people never forget. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #34 July 17, 2006 QuoteThen obviously you didn't read the link I posted. It was a sherrif's holster and he was performing along department policy when the chain of events that led to the AD started.... I know about the AD that you linked to. We had a training e-mail sent out right after it happened. It still goes along with what I said. That the holster design aside,as in this case, ADs can happen during drawing and reholstering. That has nothing to do with what was originally posted. A weapon seated in a holster for daily carry. Not drawing, not reholstering, etc. Quote he was performing along department policy when the chain of events that led to the AD started.... Sure, he was performing his duties with his department's policy, that doesn't mean that the holster was at fault or that it has anything to do with what was originally posted about. It doesn't prove that a weapon can fire in the holster when properly holstered in a proper holster. The weapon had been impropertly holstered. Still the detective wasn't asked.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #35 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd a guy sitting in a restaurant with a gun pointing at him knows that the gun is correctly holstered HOW? By asking. Its that simple. What were YOU taught about pointing guns at people? That it is the best way to kill them...er you know what I meant. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #36 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteThen obviously you didn't read the link I posted. It was a sherrif's holster and he was performing along department policy when the chain of events that led to the AD started.... I know about the AD that you linked to. We had a training e-mail sent out right after it happened. It still goes along with what I said. That the holster design aside,as in this case, ADs can happen during drawing and reholstering. That has nothing to do with what was originally posted. A weapon seated in a holster for daily carry. Not drawing, not reholstering, etc. Quote he was performing along department policy when the chain of events that led to the AD started.... Sure, he was performing his duties with his department's policy, that doesn't mean that the holster was at fault or that it has anything to do with what was originally posted about. It doesn't prove that a weapon can fire in the holster when properly holstered in a proper holster. The weapon had been impropertly holstered. Still the detective wasn't asked. Fascinating. So now it's the fault of the guy with the gun pointed at him for not asking. Cops are ALWAYS right, like in the Amadou Diallo case. What were YOU taught about pointing guns at people?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #37 July 17, 2006 QuoteBy responding "Good question. This is a triple retention holster made by Safariland. It was designed specifically for this model of handgun and the weapon is seated correctly." As shown in the link above, that does not preclude the possibility of an AD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #38 July 17, 2006 QuoteSo now it's the fault of the guy with the gun pointed at him for not asking. It's not a matter of "fault". Cloudseeker could have asked the cop "Hey, your barrel is pointing back at me. Is that safe?" and asked in a polite manner, not confrontationally, disrespectfully, or in a rebellious manner (and I have to add that because it seems to be a problem with regular people acting like teenagers to regular cops). a good cop would have answered the question politely. A bad one would have grumbled at him either way, it's pointed out and they both learn something constructive. the option to sit and shiver in fear, or to cry about it, or to post impotently on a forum somewhere does crap for the public that particular cop is serving. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #39 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo now it's the fault of the guy with the gun pointed at him for not asking. It's not a matter of "fault". Cloudseeker could have asked the cop "Hey, your barrel is pointing back at me. Is that safe?" and asked in a polite manner, not confrontationally, disrespectfully, or in a rebellious manner (and I have to add that because it seems to be a problem with regular people acting like teenagers to regular cops). a good cop would have answered the question politely. A bad one would have grumbled at him either way, it's pointed out and they both learn something constructive. the option to sit and shiver in fear, or to cry about it, or to post impotently on a forum somewhere does crap for the public that particular cop is serving. Very reasonable. Are you feeling OK?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 July 17, 2006 QuoteVery reasonable. Are you feeling OK? In another thread, Miked##### stated you play the argument and not the player. Even in agreement, you can't help it. Maybe some others appreciate it as funny and harmless ribbing. I don't. At least today. Maybe I'll play along with you tomorrow. I still very much appreciate all you contribute to the other forums and you should get a medal for that stuff, seriously. your drift stuff alone has likely saved a few from choosing to hurt themselves. Sometimes, good intentions can be completely ruined due to inability to couch good advice in a more palatable and non-arrogant and judgmental manner. I am reminded of this from recalling the interaction of how you handled the A&M accident and it's affect on those that should have been our friends. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #41 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteVery reasonable. Are you feeling OK? In another thread, Miked##### stated you play the argument and not the player. Even in agreement, you can't help it. Maybe some others appreciate it as funny and harmless ribbing. I don't. At least today. Maybe I'll play along with you tomorrow. I still very much appreciate all you contribute to the other forums and you should get a medal for that stuff, seriously. your drift stuff alone has likely saved a few from choosing to hurt themselves. Sometimes, good intentions can be completely ruined due to inability to couch good advice in a more palatable and non-arrogant and judgmental manner. I am reminded of this from recalling the interaction of how you handled the A&M accident and it's affect on those that should have been our friends. Emotion has no place in safety engineering.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #42 July 17, 2006 QuoteEmotion has no place in safety engineering. If no one wants to listen to you because of how you deliver your thoughts, your best ideas, theories and designs will sit on a shelf gathering dust. And maybe they should. what you are calling "emotion" here does not equal simple compassion and human courtesy ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #43 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteEmotion has no place in safety engineering. If no one wants to listen to you because of how you deliver your thoughts, your best ideas, theories and designs will sit on a shelf gathering dust. And maybe they should. what you are calling "emotion" here does not equal simple compassion and human courtesy There are 223 hits on "Darwin Awards" in the archives. A popular topic, it seems. Just because one of them includes some skydiver's friend doesn't make that one out-of-bounds. Studying it provides a useful lesson about the dangers of youthful hubris. Pretending it isn't there and that the participants weren't being stupid provides no lesson at all. The story of the Bonfire should be a case-study in safety classes everywhere. Especially for skydivers, who have an inclination towards dumb activities during weather holds, after dark, etc.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #44 July 17, 2006 If you recall, I supported your message. I deplored your delivery. And, if you choose to recall - because of your delivery, no one took the time to listen to your message. The only pretending, or denial at that point was the inability to recognize that harshness/bluntness causes deafness. I suspect very few people other than me took the time to separate your content from your delivery. For that effort, you imply that me demonstrating reasonableness is a rare thing. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #45 July 17, 2006 Plenty of vibes are available in Bonfire. You only have to ask over there and you receive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #46 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteDid you ever think to actually mention it to the detective? I think you would be suprised that he may be concerned and had not even thought about the fact he was pointing the weapon at everyone. I was thinking the same thing. I was taught NEVER to have a gun pointed at anyone you didn't intend to shoot. You never know when it may discharge - recall a few years ago (April 2004) a DEA weapons intructor managed to shoot himself in the leg in front of a classroom full of kids by being careless. That was in an Orl, Fla. classroom full of (black kids in da hood school) kids. He was showing how safe guns are. It's on video. Pretty good for a laughI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #47 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteWell, no man made device is 100% reliable. Were you taught never to point a weapon at anyone? Sure. And literally just about everyone in the industry will state that the weapon was not being pointed at you since it was in a holster and not being handled. That type of holster is a very very common way of carrying on a shoulder rig. Especially for large frame weapons and smaller people. I'm still laughing at the fact that with that the physics prof has the idea that a weapon secured in a holster that was made for that weapon that the weapon could magically go off. It really makes me wonder how much experience he actually has with firearms and if he actually understands them at all (even though he claims he's for gun ownership and used to shoot). You're not going to get an AD with a modern semi-auto while its in a proper holster (assuming that it is the holster that the weapon was designed for). There we go. You know what the word "ASSUME" means, right?I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #48 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteHow would you have felt about a gun pointed at you while you were fixing your perfect morning cup of coffee???????? You haven't met my wife, have you? Sounds like my last ex wife. That's why she's the EXI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #49 July 17, 2006 QuoteCops are ALWAYS right, like in the Amadou Diallo case. Mr. Kettle meet Mr. Pot. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #50 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteCops are ALWAYS right, like in the Amadou Diallo case. Mr. Kettle meet Mr. Pot. Hey, the cops were acquitted, so shooting a man armed only with a wallet 41 times must be OK if you're a cop.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
