Mockingbird 0 #301 August 10, 2006 I love it, Paj. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #302 August 10, 2006 QuoteSo then let me get this straight, if you piss god off, but refuse to repent and he strikes you down with a bolt of lightning then thats "ok" and not considered "evil"??? God is incapable of doing evil. It isn't in his nature.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #303 August 10, 2006 QuoteActually, given just one or the other, I think you'd be better served with a priest than a doctor after someone's death. One is pretty useless; the other can at least offer something to the living. Depends on the person. To me a priest is useless but a doctor could come in handy at the wake if great aunt Maude gets a dose of the vapours. QuoteConversely, we'd all be in pretty bad shape if the works of every religious person disappeared tomorrow. (We'd lose a lot of our current science, math and medical technology.) If, on the other hand, every engineer and scientist went on strike tomorrow, we'd do OK for a while. Hey play fair, either both groups disappear completely as do their entire works or they both just go on strike for a bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #304 August 10, 2006 QuoteGod has the people kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf. God tells the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill their family and friends for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf. "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." Hmmm is that justice?? In God's economy, Yes, it was justice. (I take it you haven't read the whole story.)Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #305 August 10, 2006 QuoteAn example to illustrate my point. Many different authors are responsible for Star Trek episodes. They all agree to such an extent that Klingon is now a language, the federation has a bona fide history and we have schematics of the starship Enterprise. Ergo, Star Trek is the Truth (tm). See how rediculous this is? If this is how you view Christianity, I can see why you think it's ridiculous. But to answer your question, yes, I find the Trek cult fiction ridiculous. But we know the authors of this piece of science fiction, and we know that they intended their creation to be seen as fiction. Not so with the biblical authors... They were writing as God revealed Himself and His truth to them. QuoteThe bible is not objective truth. It's hearsay and conjecture. You have every right to believe that. QuoteQuote--------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Where do you go for answers about God? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My own internal bullshit-o-meter, logic, deductive reasoning, the laws of nature, and apply all that and more to the claims made by religious folk. That sort of thing. You have a lot of confidence in yourself to think yourself capable of understanding God without His help.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #306 August 10, 2006 QuoteStill, to make it easy for you, I'll even copy and paste my original post (feel free to go back and read the prior posts for context). Quote But if everyone in mankind is part of Gods plan, how can mankind be to blame? If man truely has free will and mankind can affect the outcome of 'Gods plan' then one must concede that God has no control of his plan. Subsequently if one concedes that God has no control of his plan then one must concede that 'God' isn't really God after all. So either, God has a plan and we're all a part of it (including our actions) OR God has no master plan, or at least cannot control it (hence no plan), and isn't God after all. OR God just doesn't care what happens to us, no matter how inhumane or cruel it may be. Thank you for your patience, ntacfreefly. I didn't remember your asking these questions. The "insults" I recall came from others... the usuals. As for: QuoteBut if everyone in mankind is part of Gods plan, how can mankind be to blame? My answer would be that I think you have a misunderstanding of the nature of God's plan. He hasn't predetermined everything that is to take place in the world throughout all time, like drawing a blueprint that everything conforms to. Scripture talks about man as a "free moral agent" (as theologians would call it). God gives man choices, options. God doesn't program each of us to make certain choices; the choices are up to us. How could God hold us accountable for the choices we make if we aren't free to make them? As for:Quote If man truely has free will and mankind can affect the outcome of 'Gods plan' then one must concede that God has no control of his plan. Again, I think you're thinking of God's plan as though it's a blueprint with every little detail prescribed by Him. I really can't even think of a portion of Scripture that discusses anything that even resembles the type of plan you're talking about. As for:Quote Subsequently if one concedes that God has no control of his plan then one must concede that 'God' isn't really God after all. I think you've arrived at the wrong conclusion because your presupposition was "off."Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #307 August 10, 2006 QuoteIf this is how you view Christianity, I can see why you think it's ridiculous. But to answer your question, yes, I find the Trek cult fiction ridiculous. But we know the authors of this piece of science fiction, and we know that they intended their creation to be seen as fiction. Not so with the biblical authors... They were writing as God revealed Himself and His truth to them That's the point. You know Star Trek is fiction because you can verify it's fictional nature by referencing something outside the script. You could talk to the actors and the writers and go to the studio where it is filmed. All of this would prove that it's just a story. But if the script is all you had and it made no reference to it's fictional nature, you wouldn't be able to tell. It could be fact, it could be fiction how would you know? You certainly can't use the script as evidence that the script is true. So it is with the bible, you can't verify it against anything else because the writers, actors and stages are long since gone. All external reference has vanished and all you have is a copy of a translation of an edited version of the script. From that, you can't tell what it was meant to be. QuoteYou have a lot of confidence in yourself to think yourself capable of understanding God without His help. I don't understand god. The bible is utter gibberish and the entire concept makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. No matter which way I look at it, it just doesn't add up. That's why I don't believe any of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #308 August 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo then let me get this straight, if you piss god off, but refuse to repent and he strikes you down with a bolt of lightning then thats "ok" and not considered "evil"??? God is incapable of doing evil. It isn't in his nature. Bullshit, I've clearly shown that he is more then capable of evil, to the point that one might actually think that he is pure evil..... So you dont consider the massacre of over 2 million people whos deaths in the bible can be attributed directly to god, as evil!!!!!!!!!!! MB when will you realise that you are fighting a loosing battle? maybe 100 years ago you could still convince people that your god is real, but not now... people are to educated....----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,079 #309 August 10, 2006 Quote>It is perfectly possible to have a funeral without any religious > mumbo-jumbo. However, you DO need a trained physician to sign the >death certificate. Generally speaking our hospitals have more technicians >than clergy in them for those who wish to get well instead of dying. Actually, given just one or the other, I think you'd be better served with a priest than a doctor after someone's death. One is pretty useless; the other can at least offer something to the living. Funerals aren't about the dead. They're about the living. >Our society would survive just fine if all the priests, rabbis, imams >etc. disappeared tomorrow. I suspect we wouldn't last long if the fruits of >science and engineering disappeared tomorrow. Conversely, we'd all be in pretty bad shape if the works of every religious person disappeared tomorrow. (We'd lose a lot of our current science, math and medical technology.) If, on the other hand, every engineer and scientist went on strike tomorrow, we'd do OK for a while. If every priest, rabbi, imam, etc. disappeared tomorrow we'd probably have world peace within a couple of months. If all the power plant engineers, oil field engineers, refinery engineers, water distribution system engineers, telecommunications engineers... disappeared tomorrow there would be total chaos immediately and widespread famine and death within a month.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,079 #310 August 10, 2006 QuoteSorry, busy laughing -- I saw your statement, but what was the question? Oh, I see. I don't remember saying we could do w/o any of those things. I thought it was you that said YOU could do fine w/o ministers, rabbis, etc. my bad. I'll make it harder to miss this time: "How will you get along without fresh water, sewers, electricity, oil and oil products, gas, engines and motors, vehicles, farm equipment, metals, polymers, fertilizers, food produced using all of the above, medicines, printing, guns, refrigeration, anything produced in a factory..." "... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #311 August 10, 2006 QuoteI'll make it harder to miss this time: "How will you get along without fresh water, sewers, electricity, oil and oil products, gas, engines and motors, vehicles, farm equipment, metals, polymers, fertilizers, food produced using all of the above, medicines, printing, guns, refrigeration, anything produced in a factory..." " I'm not sure why we are debating this? I never said I could do without any of those things. In fact, because I have grown acustom to them, I "need" them. You on the other hand do not need ministers, preists, rabbis etc. That's cool. However, I do know quite a few "mounatin men" when I lived in Alaska for seven years that would love to have nothing of those things you claimed were necessary. They would love nothing better than to have a subsistance lifestyles like the Inuit did before white men came along. I believe you started this silly debate when you said I should pray for the lights to come on. I was merely pointing out that "most" people have a need for religous leaders in a time of crisis just as "most" people have a need for engineers and scientists. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,079 #312 August 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'll make it harder to miss this time: "How will you get along without fresh water, sewers, electricity, oil and oil products, gas, engines and motors, vehicles, farm equipment, metals, polymers, fertilizers, food produced using all of the above, medicines, printing, guns, refrigeration, anything produced in a factory..." " I'm not sure why we are debating this? I never said I could do without any of those things. In fact, because I have grown acustom to them, I "need" them. You on the other hand do not need ministers, preists, rabbis etc. That's cool. It's because you compared the scribblings of a neolithic tribe in Israel that have brought a lot of misery to people over the centuries, with the achievements of the Greeks in developing science and symbolic mathematics which are the enablers of our civilization. That's why.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,079 #313 August 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'll make it harder to miss this time: "How will you get along without fresh water, sewers, electricity, oil and oil products, gas, engines and motors, vehicles, farm equipment, metals, polymers, fertilizers, food produced using all of the above, medicines, printing, guns, refrigeration, anything produced in a factory..." " I'm not sure why we are debating this? I never said I could do without any of those things. In fact, because I have grown acustom to them, I "need" them. You on the other hand do not need ministers, preists, rabbis etc. That's cool. However, I do know quite a few "mounatin men" when I lived in Alaska for seven years that would love to have nothing of those things you claimed were necessary. They would love nothing better than to have a subsistance lifestyles like the Inuit did before white men came along. I believe you started this silly debate when you said I should pray for the lights to come on. I was merely pointing out that "most" people have a need for religous leaders in a time of crisis just as "most" people have a need for engineers and scientists. Even Alaska mountain men use knives, guns and other engineered products. They are not re-living the stone age. There are over 6,000,000,000 humans alive now and most of them are NOT Christians and will get along just fine without a bible. A stone age lifestyle can support maybe a few million. Our civilization depends on engineering. Religion is just a luxury.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #314 August 10, 2006 I did not mean to communicate to you that others made no contribution, simply that we should not be so quick to discount the works of antiquity simply because it pales to our contribution. Give the Israelites this. They wrote books (Bible) that has influenced billions of people. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,537 #315 August 10, 2006 QuoteConversely, we'd all be in pretty bad shape if the works of every religious person disappeared tomorrow. (We'd lose a lot of our current science, math and medical technology.) If, on the other hand, every engineer and scientist went on strike tomorrow, we'd do OK for a while. Yep, and if every engineer or scientist went on a killing spree tomorrow millions would die, on the other hand if every holy man woke up feeling a bit grumpy the world would function just fine. Therefore engineers are more evil than holy men! Ten out of ten for spin, minus several million for consistencyDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #316 August 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteGod is incapable of doing evil. It isn't in his nature. Bullshit, I've clearly shown that he is more then capable of evil, to the point that one might actually think that he is pure evil..... So you dont consider the massacre of over 2 million people whos deaths in the bible can be attributed directly to god, as evil!!!!!!!!!!! God’s anger is always righteous because he judges the heart. That sounds unreasonable to most because they are unaware of their sin and it’s exceedingly sinfulness towards a completely holy, just, infinite, and perfect God. All who are guilty of lying, stealing, committing adultery (looking with lust), blaspheming, hating (murder), committing idolatry, dishonoring parents, etc. will be judged. That includes every born again Christian. The only difference between the judgment in the Old Testament and now is that your judgment has been graciously delayed. You are guilty and will stand before the Judge. You are guilty because of willful disobedience of God’s moral law. If you go to hell, it will be because you sent yourself there. The punishment will be completely justified and you will have no excuse. Until you are born again (repent or turn away from your sin and trust in Jesus as your Savior becoming a new creature in Christ and make every effort to live according to His Word), you are not considered a child of God. In fact, the Bible makes it clear that you are a child of wrath who is storing up wrath for yourself on the Day of Judgment. All this argument over religion is ridiculous. We all better forget about all the formalities of religion, whether we think we can account for our own lawlessness, and whether we think we are good enough to put ourselves right with God. Forget about religion! Study your conscience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #317 August 10, 2006 QuoteForget about religion! Study your conscience! Truest thing you've said!Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #318 August 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteForget about religion! Study your conscience! Truest thing you've said! Thanks Stumpy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #319 August 10, 2006 QuoteI'll just say that since time is thought to have started with the Big Bang, there was no before to think about. I've never heard of the Big Bang theory having anything to do with when time began. I thought it just had to do with the creation of our universe. I see no reason to believe that nothing existed before it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,038 #320 August 10, 2006 >I've never heard of the Big Bang theory having anything to do with >when time began. I thought it just had to do with the creation of our universe. Right. Our perception of time is based on the physical constants in our universe. In most ways that matter to us, time and space began when our universe did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #321 August 10, 2006 QuoteOur perception of time is based on the physical constants in our universe. That's not true for all of us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #322 August 10, 2006 christianity is fascism, plain and simplewe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #323 August 10, 2006 luke 19:27 makes the "god" OF CHRISTIANITY the purveyor of evil. YOUR PROBLEM IS OBVIOUS: YOU NEED A WINDOW FOR YOUR STOMACHwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,038 #324 August 10, 2006 >luke 19:27 makes the "god" OF CHRISTIANITY the purveyor of evil. The only way I'm going to believe THAT is if you post at least three links to a webpage with real, undisputable facts. No, make that four links. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #325 August 10, 2006 Quote>luke 19:27 makes the "god" OF CHRISTIANITY the purveyor of evil. The only way I'm going to believe THAT is if you post at least three links to a webpage with real, undisputable facts. No, make that four links. What if he posts attachments of the pages instead of url's? Does that count too?Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
