JackC 0 #351 August 11, 2006 QuoteAh, BUT-- if you knew that the script related historical fact, the script would be trustworthy. How would you know the script related to historical fact? Because it said so? War of the Worlds did that too. Quote...skeptics and atheists (who frankly want to remain in the dark and want the bible and Christianity to be disproven) think they have good reason for their skepticism. That's because we do have good reason for our skepticism. The god hypothesis explains nothing and makes zero sense. QuoteAll external evidence and reference has NOT vanished... this is simply not true. I'd like to see some of this evidence. QuoteSeeking truth isn't just a mental exercise-- there's a spiritual aspect to it, in that God will enlighten a mind and a will that search for truth about Him and the way He chose to reveal Himself to us--- in nature and in the bible and, especially, through Christ whom He sent into the world. Where is the spiritual aspect to seeking the truth in calculus? I don't need to meditate in order to integrate. What the hell is a "spiritual aspect" anyway? It's just another meaningless phrase that you can't define. If you can't define it, how can I be expected to know what you're talking about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #352 August 11, 2006 QuoteUse calculus to prove that you should help a child you find lost in the city. Can you do it? Let's see the proof. Using rigorous logic on the bible makes as much sense as basing your morals on calculus. So lets see where you can go with this. What you're saying is when you use logic to examine the bible, it makes no sense so therefore you can't use logic to examine the bible, logic is the wrong tool. If you can't use logic when discussing the bible, then by definition that must mean the bible is illogical and its a given that illogical things don't make sense. So which ever way you look at it, the bible makes no sense. Have I just argued myself in a circle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,076 #353 August 11, 2006 Quote> I can prove to you that that calculus is real and works . . . Use calculus to prove that you should help a child you find lost in the city. Can you do it? Let's see the proof. Using rigorous logic on the bible makes as much sense as basing your morals on calculus. That wasn't his point. The point is that no faith is required to prove the existence of calculus, but faith is required to believe in the existence of the Christian god as described in the bible.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,076 #354 August 11, 2006 Quote Education has nothing to do with it. And I don't need to convince people; the Holy Spirit is the one who convinces. I just respond to them; when they ask or when they misrepresent scripture I feel an obligation. Neither of you are doing a very good job. YOU can't answer a logical question without self-reference or semantic spinning, and for an omniscient omnipotent omnipresent entity, the Holy Spirit is failing miserably to convince me of anything, even that she exists!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,537 #355 August 11, 2006 Quote None at all. You've completely misrepresented it. OK this is my last post in this thread. I'm tired of the twisted, distorted, straw man argument about Christianity. What's the point of arguing to defend something that is a complete distortion of what you actually believe??Crazy edited to add: for those who believe that it IS accurate, it would explain a lot about your reasoning. As CS Lewis pointed out, when people wish to attack Christianity, they first set up a version of it suitable for a 5-year-old, and then use that as the object of their attack. I'm definitely not a fundamentalist BTW, & have argued against it myself in previous posts. But as for Christian belief itself, it's not surprising that you should disbelieve it & deride it, if you first set up such a distorted version of it. Its not a distortion of your beliefs because it is not meant to describe your beliefs. The description of God that Broken posted is a fairly accurate description of the God that Paj and MB believe in - it says so right at the top of his post. Paj and MB are some hard core fundamentalists, you aren't, therefore their beliefs are not your beliefs. You said yourself you're not a fundamentalist, therefore in a thread entitled 'Fundamentalist Christians' it is not your version of christianity being attacked.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeflyChile 0 #356 August 11, 2006 QuoteQuote> I can prove to you that that calculus is real and works . . . Use calculus to prove that you should help a child you find lost in the city. Can you do it? Let's see the proof. Using rigorous logic on the bible makes as much sense as basing your morals on calculus. That wasn't his point. The point is that no faith is required to prove the existence of calculus, but faith is required to believe in the existence of the Christian god as described in the bible. Now it's been a long time since i had a class on probability, but according to math, isn't there no such thing as 100% or 0%? therefore, you can never be certain that something will happen or that a certain result will occur. What i'm getting at is that science and math is just observations taken to explain a phenomenon, giving the MOST LIKELY outcome of a similar circumstance -- so in a way, you have to have a bit of faith in science or math to bridge that gap of uncertainty (however small or insignificant that uncertainty may be) -- however unlikely, there is a small probability that next time you add 2+2, the answer will be 5. this in no way represents my view on religion -- i feel that science is a more reliable way to explain things -- but i think that everything requires a bit of faith because there's no real way to be absolutely sure about anything (again -- using probability, not "feeling" sure about stuff) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #357 August 11, 2006 hey jakee, no affront to you, dear. here is what Dante says about sitting on your duff praying for a mythical saviour to return, "the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of moral crisis, mantain nuetrality". you and i don't buy heaven and hell, but since they do that is their reward for do nothing in an obvious time of moral crisis. Art 16 from [url]www.Christianism.com[url]we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #358 August 11, 2006 QuoteI've never heard of the Big Bang theory having anything to do with when time began. I thought it just had to do with the creation of our universe. I see no reason to believe that nothing existed before it. Well, the universe is the set containing "all things", and since time is "a thing" it must therefore be inculded in the set. In reality though, since we can't possibly know anything about what happened before everything existed, it's a moot point. Either way, questions relating to "before the big bang" are still meaningless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #359 August 11, 2006 Quote however unlikely, there is a small probability that next time you add 2+2, the answer will be 5. Only for sufficiently large values of 2. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,036 #360 August 11, 2006 >If you can't use logic when discussing the bible, then by definition >that must mean the bible is illogical and its a given that illogical things >don't make sense. Use logic to prove that Jackson Pollack was a good painter. Or that Neil Peart writes good songs. Or that Shakespeare wrote some good plays. Or that Gandhi and Martin Luther King were good, and Genghis Khan was bad. Prove that, logically, you should skydive. What? You say you can't? So a claim that Martin Luther King was a good person is illogical? Your desire to skydive is nonsensical? Again, that's using the wrong tools for the job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #361 August 11, 2006 Quote, but faith is required to believe in the existence of the Christian god as described in the bible. FINALLY, you are starting to get it! I know some of my Christian bothers and sisters believe there is a lot of evidence to validate their belief, but the fact remains, despite the evidence or lack thereof, faith is required to experience God. Hebrews 11:6 in the Message paraphrase: It's impossible to please God apart from faith. And why? Because anyone who wants to approach God must believe both that he exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #362 August 11, 2006 There comes a time, when you should dust off your sanddles and move on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #363 August 11, 2006 wrong again, the only way experience 'god' is to be equal to 'god'we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #364 August 11, 2006 What no posted links???? You disappointment me so! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #365 August 11, 2006 WOW, a comment with no .htm attachments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #366 August 11, 2006 Quotedespite the evidence or lack thereof, faith is required to experience God. Stop saying that dammit! We need more extremist people around! Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,076 #367 August 11, 2006 QuoteQuote, but faith is required to believe in the existence of the Christian god as described in the bible. FINALLY, you are starting to get it! I know some of my Christian bothers and sisters believe there is a lot of evidence to validate their belief, but the fact remains, despite the evidence or lack thereof, faith is required to experience God. Hebrews 11:6 in the Message paraphrase: It's impossible to please God apart from faith. And why? Because anyone who wants to approach God must believe both that he exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him What do you mean "finally". See, for example, www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1946246#1946246 It's you that doesn't get it, with your silly insistence that we prove that god doesn't exist. There is no objective proof of the existence of the Christian god (or the FSM, or Krishna, or Zeus...). Belief in any of them requires faith. I see no more validity in your belief in your god than in a Hindu's belief in Krishna.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #368 August 11, 2006 Quote What evidence can you give that God doesn't exist? Simple solipsism here, and rather disengenous also. You can't prove a negative. Any first year debater knows that. That's why this type of argument isn't allowed in a court of law to my knowledge. That argument can be used to try to prove the existence of Santa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #369 August 11, 2006 QuoteWhat do you mean "finally". See, for example, www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1946246#1946246 Sorry, but I don't read all your posts, especially those on a different thread (especially one with 5,000 replies!) Quote It's you that doesn't get it, with your silly insistence that we prove that god doesn't exist. I didn't "insist". I made an off the cuff response - hardly an empirical command. QuoteI see no more validity in your belief in your god than in a Hindu's belief in Krishna. And this effects me, how? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #370 August 11, 2006 Quote Simple solipsism here, and rather disengenous also. Silly request I admit -- mostly off the cuff. But how does that equate me to one who believes that "self is the only thing that can be verified?" steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #371 August 11, 2006 you very clearly haven't read anything that i sent you privately. you're disappoint will truly come when the U.N. is brouhgt in to enforce its edicts upon us. P.L. 102-14 is the incorporation of Jewish law(the noahide laws) into our land. they state spefically that anyone believeing in a false god(jesus) shall be de-capitated. DANTE-"the hottest place in hell is reserved for those, who in times of moral crisis. remain nuetral.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #372 August 11, 2006 Cool, I get to be a martyr for Christ. Now, who is delusional? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #373 August 11, 2006 Quoteyou very clearly haven't read anything that i sent you privately. . You mean the endless articles full of tirades of atheists? No, I read some, but when you inundate me with your plethora of athesist websites, like you do on the forum threads, I tend to ignore them. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #374 August 11, 2006 the diference between atheists and theists, atheists believe in one less god. ignoring any links i have attached proves my point--religion is mind control! "what profit hath not the fable of Christ brought us"-Pope leo X how about i forward you WHO IS THIS- a critical study of the christos messiah traditionwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #375 August 11, 2006 Hairy, you are entertaining at times. One google search of your infamous Pope Leo quote brings some interesting reading. http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html I love where it says:The [This] quote is used mostly by skeptics of the intellectual low rent district -- people like Acharya S, Brooks Trubee, and deceased Nazi-pusher Revilo P. Oliver, who will accept anything that makes Christianity look bad, even at the cost of selling their integrity steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
