Israeli Tanks lined up and ready to roll

[rwieder 0]

Who do you think is buying the equipment, missles and munitions for that horse shit over there? It's been kept really quite, but the USA is backing that BS. That's our 4 million a day, never mind Iraq or afganistan

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

>Bill if you were running Israel what would you do?

Side note - here's one thing I would NOT do:

Fair enough.

And hopefully, if you were a Palestinian leader, you wouldn't do this either:


http://www.viaccess.net/local/messages/56/5000.jpg

http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/3-31b.jpg


http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/images/ispal/kidswithguns.jpg


http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1460000/images/_1462004_ap150boysoldier.jpg

[Michele 1]

Quote

And hopefully, if you were a Palestinian leader, you wouldn't do this either:

Again, agreed wholeheartedly.

Sigh.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,989]

>And hopefully, if you were a Palestinian leader, you wouldn't do this either:

Do what? Give guns to kids?

http://www.middlebury.net/nra/index.html

http://brain.mu.nu/archives/images/kids%20w%20gun%201.jpg

http://www.israel-wat.com/show7.jpg

If your point is that kids shouldn't be taught war, or hatred of others, I agree. But if your point is kids shouldn't have guns, I think you'll get a bit of an argument from some people here.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

Quote

>Bill if you were running Israel what would you do?

Side note - here's one thing I would NOT do:

Fair enough.

And hopefully, if you were a Palestinian leader, you wouldn't do this either:


http://www.viaccess.net/local/messages/56/5000.jpg

http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/3-31b.jpg


http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/images/ispal/kidswithguns.jpg


http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1460000/images/_1462004_ap150boysoldier.jpg

In the last two, the guns are American! Is America actually arming BOTH sides of this conflict? That'd be really good business sense.

Or is it that these aren't actual pics of anti-Israeli armed kids... Just armed kids.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

If your point is that kids shouldn't be taught war, or hatred of others, I agree.

That was my point.

I suppose I could have made the same point with this one instead:

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

In the last two, the guns are American! Is America actually arming BOTH sides of this conflict?

No, it's because not only is the entire world chock-filled with AK-47's originally made in the old Soviet Union, and then re-sold or "otherwise distributed" elsewhere, it's also filled with a fair share of American weapons that have taken similar "unauthorized" routes.

[miked10270 0]

OK... Put it another way.

Pic 1 - Certainly Palestinian, but old. How long has it been since Yasser Arafat was leader of the PLO as an armed terrorist organisation?

Pic 2 - Certainly Iraqi. Saddam Hussein was NEVER a friend of either Lebanon or Palestine. HE was either a "Western Lackey" or isolated from the entire Mid-East.

Pic 3 - The weapons appear to be either AR-18s or Gal-Ils. That'd make them Israeli, not Palestinian or Lebanese.

Pic 4 - Definitely an AR-15, I think M16A1 with properly doubled magazines which'd make it military, not guerilla. A lot of shiny green sashes. For some reason I think this is Egyptian or Moroccan, possibly the sash & cap colour.

In effect, you have ascribed to Hamas & Hezb'Allah at least two pictures which cannot be theirs, and one pic which isn't positively identifiable.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

OK... Put it another way.

Pic 1 - Certainly Palestinian, but old. How long has it been since Yasser Arafat was leader of the PLO as an armed terrorist organisation?

Pic 2 - Certainly Iraqi. Saddam Hussein was NEVER a friend of either Lebanon or Palestine. HE was either a "Western Lackey" or isolated from the entire Mid-East.

Pic 3 - The weapons appear to be either AR-18s or Gal-Ils. That'd make them Israeli, not Palestinian or Lebanese.

Pic 4 - Definitely an AR-15, I think M16A1 with properly doubled magazines which'd make it military, not guerilla. A lot of shiny green sashes. For some reason I think this is Egyptian or Moroccan, possibly the sash & cap colour.

In effect, you have ascribed to Hamas & Hezb'Allah at least two pictures which cannot be theirs, and one pic which isn't positively identifiable.

Mike.

First of all, each of those those pictures came up on a Google Images search of ( "Palestinian children" and "guns"). So go argue with Google. Or do the search, and see the pics and their links, for yourself.

Second, as aften happens in SC, you're trying so hard to be a DZ.com detective that you're missing my point - prompted by the pics posted earlier of Israeli kids signing artillery shells - that the indoctrination of kids to war and dehumanizing of the "enemy" has long been done by both sides to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Nothing more, nothing less.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

First of all, each of those those pictures came up on a Google Images search of ( "Palestinian children" and "guns"). So go argue with Google. Or do the search, and see the pics and their links, for yourself.

Second, as aften happens in SC, you're trying so hard to be a DZ.com detective that you're missing my point - prompted by the pics posted earlier of Israeli kids signing artillery shells - that the indoctrination of kids to war and dehumanizing of the "enemy" has long been done by both sides to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Nothing more, nothing less.

First of all...... Let's put these pics of "Evil Palestinian Kids" into context:

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=%22palestinian%20children%22%20guns&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Pic 1: Entitled "Palestinian Children hold TOY guns. From Sharia-Watch 2004 archives. Children pledging to follow Yasser Arafat AFTER he was pushing for a diplomatic solution.

Pic 4: from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/1462004.stm which deals with an Israeli assasination of a peace activist.

Pic 3: From http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal.html which is entitled "Palestinian children parade with FAKE guns n Balata refugee camp in the West Bank near Nablus, Oct. 5, 2001. (AP photo)"

Pic 2: Doesn't show in the search you refer to. That would be because it ISN'T a Palestinian child, is it. It's an IRAQI child, isn't it.

Second... I guess that SOMEONE has to be a "DZ.Com Detective", especially when folk try to post deliberately misleading information to further an agenda. Did you think that the folk here are so gullible as to take the pics you posted blindly at face value?

Or are you claiming that current pics of Israeli kids writing on LIVE shells about to be fired into Lebanon is no worse or no different to 2-5 year old pics of Palestinian kids with TOY guns.

Why not just post honestly in the first place? IF you can't quote sources correctly, then post as opinion.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Michele 1]

Quote

Second... I guess that SOMEONE has to be a "DZ.Com Detective", especially when folk try to post deliberately misleading information to further an agenda. Did you think that the folk here are so gullible as to take the pics you posted blindly at face value?

Why not? We took BillV's at face value (not saying we shouldn't, just pointing out the discrepancy...). Has anyone researched Bill's to see if it's current? (Again, not saying I'm doubting it...just, Mike, if you're going to "take the piss outta" people, why not check all available facts, and post the results, oh DZ.com detective?)

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Andy9o8 2]

I feel like you're just making me repeat myself, which is a SC dynamic I try to avoid getting sucked into.

Nobody called them "evil Palestinian kids", so please drop the "re-wording" tactic. The only point (and only "agenda") was to show some balance - that Palestinian kids are taught to want to militarily attack Israel, which is no better than that Israeli kid signing the shell.

I'm not going to get into a stupid pissing contest picture by picture. Each one came up on the Google Images search I noted. And whether the kids are given real guns or fake ones to drill with (#3 - uh, which, by the way, you were so certain were Israeli kids with Galils), it's still part of the indoctrination of hatred. I'm making a big-picture observation; that's all.

You're taking this very personally; but I'm done arguing, as I'm really not a "last-word" kind of guy. Both sides to the conflict are behaving terribly, each in its own way. Neither side has cornered the market on the moral high ground.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

....We took BillV's at face value ...

BillVons pics are from Associated Press:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060717/481/f9bc38f9a3a9401fb864a02b3a24f678

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060717/481/c8723701e8f644f0b5befd7df750e8ea

Which I didn't comment on because they were honestly captioned, appropriate to the thread, and current.

Regards,

Mike.

PS: There's also one from Der Spiegel:

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTUwOTkmbnI9MTQ_3,00.html

Can anyone comment on the language or the mobile artillery unit also pictured?

Mike

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Pic 2: Doesn't show in the search you refer to. That would be because it ISN'T a Palestinian child, is it. It's an IRAQI child, isn't it.

Nope. Palestinian. here's the article - and the picture:


http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/2001/english/wk3-31/2.asp



PALESTINIAN CHILDREN IN GAZA CALL FOR IRAQI ATTACK ON ISRAEL
Hundreds of Palestinian children, armed with rifles and magazines, gathered in the streets of Gaza City singing songs of praises for Sadam Hussein. The children begged Sadam to shoot missiles into Israeli territory while burning Israeli and American flags. Palestinian youth came to the demonstration wearing white robes and explosive belts.

Quote

Pic 3: From http://journalism.berkeley.edu/...arccrisis/ispal.html which is entitled "Palestinian children parade with FAKE guns n Balata refugee camp in the West Bank near Nablus, Oct. 5, 2001. (AP photo)"

As I said, whether the guns those kids were taught to drill with were real or fake was completely beside the point I was making. But remember that in your earlier post you said:

Quote

Pic 3 - The weapons appear to be either AR-18s or Gal-Ils. That'd make them Israeli, not Palestinian or Lebanese.

Which obviously is not the case.

[Michele 1]

Like I said, I wasn't doubting him...just comparing the fact that the photo hadn't been researched or likewise commented on. I find all people who hand children guns abhorent, as well as all people who allow their children to sign bombs. It does nothing more than promulgate the mindset and viciousness that must be stopped before all the rest of it can be stopped.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[miked10270 0]

If it helps, I did happen to find a current pic of a Lebanese Child with a gun!

Do Y'All really think it's the gun that's teaching him to hate & fear Israel?

Mike.

Incidentally, the source is Der Spiegel. To answer your point in another thread (why thread-hop?)... While I like The Beeb, I don't use The Guardian because of it's grossly leftist slant. However, I Do use other sources, & not just English Language ones.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

Quote

Pic 2: Doesn't show in the search you refer to. That would be because it ISN'T a Palestinian child, is it. It's an IRAQI child, isn't it.

Nope. Palestinian. here's the article - and the picture:


http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/2001/english/wk3-31/2.asp

ROFLMAO!

Quoting "The Global Jewish Agenda" as a reliable & unbiased source in this conflict!

Better yet, an article that must be over 3 years old - from when Saddam Hussein was in power in Iraq!!

Superb!!!

I'm beginning to see why you only posted the pics originally.

Don't kids play with TOY guns? I remember playing with toy guns as a kid. My kids do. Never taken my kids to a "Live-Shell-Signing-Day" though.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[billvon 2,989]

A bizarre opinion from Noah Feldman:

-----------------------
For its part, Israel is gambling that the right strategy is to make the people who elected Hamas and a government that includes Hezbollah reckon the costs of their representatives' recklessness. That is why Israel has targeted not only Hezbollah leaders and strongholds but has also bombed infrastructure that sustains daily life for everybody in Lebanon. From Israel's standpoint, this is no longer a fight with nonstate terrorists who are holding their fellow citizens hostage to their tactics. It is, rather, war between Israel and countries that are pursuing (or tolerating) violent policies endorsed (or at least accepted) by their electorates.
-----------------------

In other words, if you live in a dictatorship, well, too bad but at least the west won't target you. But god help you if you start a democratic government and vote for something that Israel disagrees with. Then the innocent electorate gets targeted. (Who is no longer so innocent, I suppose, because they voted for their leaders.)

Which is Hezbollah's (and Al Qaeda's) plan too, apparently. Still bizarre to hear someone defending it.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

A bizarre opinion from Noah Feldman:

-----------------------
... make the people who elected Hamas and a government that includes Hezbollah reckon the costs of their representatives' recklessness.... no longer a fight with nonstate terrorists.

Really not so bizarre. This neatly encapsulates the root cause of both the Palestinian and Lebanese conflicts, viz: Hamas & Hezb'Allah moving into the political arena with a significant degree of success without moving on from being an organization of "freedom-fighters". They try to govern countries while clinging to the "pressure-group" mentality and failing to realise their new responsibilities.

In effect, Hamas (& Hezb'Allah) fail to realize that violence is nothing more than a means to an end in political & diplomatic terms. Having specialised in the violence aspect of this dispute for so long, they have been shown to be unaware of the wider situation and the need for the "executive arm" to be subservient to the "political arm". Sinn-Fein & PIRA are a perfect example of success in this field by "freedom-fighters".

This is particularly sad when you consider the PLO under Arafat DID successfully make the transition.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

I'm beginning to see why you only posted the pics originally.

Mike, you're still missing my point, and I'm not sure why. I was never trying to say "Look what these guys did yesterday"; I was simply pointing out that teaching kids to war and hate is awful, and that both sides habitually do it. Nothing more, nothing less. Over and out.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

Mike, you're still missing my point, and I'm not sure why. I was never trying to say "Look what these guys did yesterday"; I was simply pointing out that teaching kids to war and hate is awful, and that both sides habitually do it. Nothing more, nothing less. Over and out.

Reviewing last night's posts, I NOW realise that I did misread your argument.

I APOLOGISE FOR THIS. WHOLLY AND UNRESERVEDLY!!

I had misread your arguments and was excessively harsh & misguided by responding to my (erroneous) reading of your point. I took your post as a direct counter to BillVon's pics. In that I was wrong. I can only claim a degree of tiredness causing inattentiveness as a feeble mitigation.

Regards,

Mike (the idiot).

Edited to add: Now that I do in fact understand your point, I am of course in total agreement with it.

Please accept my unreserved apology.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Side note - here's one thing I would NOT do:

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

Well I think it's sweet... Little Israeli girls writing to their Palestinian & Lebanese Pen-Pals!

Mike.

I love it when they say the Palestinians have bad things written in there school book. Once again we see how Civilized the Israelis are. Good thing there n0ot teaching racism.

I say it again the similarities between Israel, and Nazi Germany are sickening.



And Michelle: You mention the Palestinians broke the peace, or you mentioned that Hezbolah crossed the bordered and broke the peace. Who do you think crosses the border more and whenever they wish? Who do you think flies their Fighters above Lebanon any time they wish? Who has the power and uses it with out any regard for international law? Every time there has been an action against Israel it did not just happen out of the blue. It is because Israel will not respect the boarders (I don’t mean now I mean ever), they do not treat their neighbors with dignity. I don’t know if you have family in Israel or if you are Jewish but you seem to be blinded and I can’t understand why?

I am a Muslim but i would never support murders like OBL just because there Muslim, I wish more Jews and Israelis would put their Humanity before all other things.


did a quick search and
Wow looks like some do.
http://www.nkusa.org/



On a side note I was watching met the press and I was surprised and how easily the White House representative could lie. He actually said we are happy that Israel is only targeting the “Terrorist” and not civilian infrastructure. I wish I could reach in to the TV and slap the fucker for lying.




Edit toi add for Michelle:
Oh yea just want to say I am not trying to pick on you and your personal beliefs are non-of my business, It’s just something I have noticed it this dispute. I have mentioned and truly mean it. If the majority of Palestinians were not Muslim, or the Israelis were any religion I would still feel the same.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Andy9o8 2]

Darius, you're so filled with blind fury and hatred for the Israelis that you almost never seem to be a sensible part of the discussion. This is a 2-sided conflict, and as long as you paint it as a 1-sided conflict, you'll have little credibility.

You want peace over there? Start by talking peace, for God's sake. Saying (as you did in another thread) that the Israelis should all just clear out and move back to Europe is the problem, not the solution.

Of course Israel over-flies Lebanon's borders. It has to, to protect itself from an Iranian-created and sponsored Hezbollah hell-bent on its destruction. That part is incredibly obvious.

It's been said before, so I'll repeat it: this is not about the occupied territories. It's about whether all of Israel's neighbors are willing to let it simply exist in peace. If Israel's neighbors - all of them - would simply lay down their arms, there would be peace for everybody, and no occupied territories. If Israel simply lays down its arms, it would be destroyed. It's that simple.

If Israel's neighbors want Israel to stop taking all miltary action or occupying any non-Israeli territory, they only have to do one simple thing: leave them the hell alone. That's all - just leave them the hell alone. Everything after that would pretty much fall into place.

[rehmwa 2]

I don't totally believe that, though I lean to your argument.

Both sides are now about retribution.
Darius notes that the conflict on the Arab side is about 'justice'. Nuts also.

Neither side wants to throw the Last punch. They want to throw the last 5 punches, 10 taunts, and 10 belittlings. Then maybe they'd stop.

Short phrasing - It's never been an eye for eye. It's always been you shoot my eye out, then we aren't even until until I dig out both of your eyes and grind your face in the sand and you smile and say thank you. This is the famed "culture of justice".

Excess pride and domineering cultural bias has never been a highlight in the human race.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[miked10270 0]

Hmmm The Neturei Karta make an interesting proposition, although I personally believe that their purely religious argument is fundamentally flawed and intrinsically self-destructive.

Bear in mind that part of the reason that Jews & Muslims lived in relative peace during The British Mandate was that they were both focussed on getting the British OUT!

I doubt that Israel or Palestine would welcome any third party beck to "Have Another Go" at a mandate to govern their country & guide it to independence. Remember that partition (now completely discredited worldwide) seemed the logical solution at the time.

Having said that, I honestly cannot see any alternative solution for peace other than Palestine & Israel disbanding their parliaments & militaries and accepting third party mandate. Obviously the UN... But Which country(ies)?

My nomination would be South Africa (for it's experience) & Italy (for it's proximity).

What're yours? Bear in mind any nomination would have to be acceptable to both (all?) factions and all neighbouring countries. In the case of more than one country, they would have to work together as one.


Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.