Israeli Tanks lined up and ready to roll

[SpeedRacer 1]

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48976 this is old, but it seems this is the headline the terrorists are expecting to see.

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[Darius11 12]

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I inferred that it is your contention that Israel unleashing its Armor and Infantry on Lebonon is a good thing. Am I wrong? If I'm wrong and you were just merely making a statement than I oppoligize.

I call Bullshit.

"people in general dying" and "brownish people" does not jibe with that in the least.

If you sit around and chear for war, then you get excited about "people in general dying". The "brownish people" part was more of an emotional response to what is a pretty sad state of affairs.

you know, it really IS a sad state of affairs. but what really is the solution over there? will any nation really be the first to lay down their guns? should Israel be the first, only to let her enemies use that as the chance they've been waiting for to storm in and anhilate her?

will there ever be peace in the middle east?

I don't know what the answer is but this clearly isn't it. Maybe there could be a single democratic state in Isreal (including the West Bank and Gaza) where Muslims and Jews have equal access to social, political, and economic resourses.

I always thought that would be a great idea.
Let the every day people live together equally and with the same opportunities. I bet they would get along.

The other option would be a strong UN presence.
The problem has been whenever there is a peace agreement it is not followed threw. Israel will still do some of the things but will still not respect the boarders. Then that leads to an attack by HAMAS or who ever. If there is a strong UN presence at the boarders that keeps every one in line then I believe we can have peace.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[aftermid 0]

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I inferred that it is your contention that Israel unleashing its Armor and Infantry on Lebonon is a good thing. Am I wrong? If I'm wrong and you were just merely making a statement than I oppoligize.

I call Bullshit.

"people in general dying" and "brownish people" does not jibe with that in the least.

If you sit around and chear for war, then you get excited about "people in general dying". The "brownish people" part was more of an emotional response to what is a pretty sad state of affairs.

you know, it really IS a sad state of affairs. but what really is the solution over there? will any nation really be the first to lay down their guns? should Israel be the first, only to let her enemies use that as the chance they've been waiting for to storm in and anhilate her?

will there ever be peace in the middle east?

I don't know what the answer is but this clearly isn't it. Maybe there could be a single democratic state in Isreal (including the West Bank and Gaza) where Muslims and Jews have equal access to social, political, and economic resourses.

but how will that work when they, muslims and jews, hate each other so much and each think that the other's fundamental religious identity is flawed?

Probably not really well. There would probably be a lot of political assasinations and violent protests, I'm sure a fair amount of terrorism on both sides. But maybe after generations there would be some comprimise and eventually cooperation. Maybe each side would move a little bit more to the middle over time. Almost definitly wouldn't work, but something has got to be better than the alternative, somewhat inevitable Armageddon: then the only winners are the Fundementalist Christians.

[Michele 1]

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Israel is reacting out of all proportion, and appear to be targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure quite deliberately.

If they WERE trying to target Hezb'Allah, then wouldn't a small-scale cross-border raid or artillery / airstrike response to the rocket launch site be more appropriate & effective? The Katyushas used by Hezb'Allah aren't exactly invisible when they fire!

I really don't see the difference between car bombs detonated in a street and a 500lb GP bomb dropped into a street from a jet - other than the 500lb bomb will cause more damage..

What bothers me about that statement is simply this.

Katyusha rockets are mobile launcher based. Meaning, that they can be anywhere, at any time, and be fired. Two minutes later, or approximately one minute after they have been detected, the laucher can be gone. G O N E. Adios. Bye-bye.These rockets have been fired from backyards, schoolyards, streets, and bridges. They have been fired from empty fields, from market places. Their very mobility is what makes them incredibly attractive.

Why?

Good question. Both because they can be easily and quickly transported to a new location and fired, but also because they then can be "attractants" of enemy fire. Meaning, when a rocket is launched from someone's backyard, ipso facto the house then becomes a target. It's a civilian structure. But it also is a military structure, inasmuch as it has doubled as that for the moment when the rocket was fired.

Furthermore, there have been weapons caches discovered on the first floor of several apartment buildings. In schools, storage lockers at central gathering stations, in mosques. All of this is Hizbollah's planning. What are they planning? They are planning that there will be some sort of restraint used when the opposition targets them...because of civilians being present.

How absolutely shitty of Hizbollah, how diabolically brilliant and fuckingly cunning to do so. Because then, when Israel does what it needs to do and takes out the weapons storage areas (which are in schools, backyards, mosques, and so on), they are then accused of targeting innocent civilians. And of killing kids.

Additionally, let's look at the realistic reason one actually would target bridges and roads of the enemy. Because then they can't easily transport weapons (i.e. Katyushka rockets) from one site to another, and hopefully in the destruction of the bridges and roads will contain the enemy so they are then in one general spot rather than an entire country. And they can't get reinforcements. And they can't move. So it's easier to find them, find their supplies, and eradicate the threat with as little additional destruction and casualties as possible.

It is common strategy in war to do that. Common, first grade military strategy. I'm not in the military and I can figure it out...

So what is the Israeli army to do? Well, they drop leaflets warning that this area will be bombed. They announce it before hand, hoping that at least some will listen and get the hell outta dodge. That maybe, someone will turn in the local weapons cache, and save some lives that way.

They drop leaflets, make announcements, and then...three days later (ample time for innocent civilians to get to a different town), amass their troops on the border, and begin to go into the area. They are looking for those weapon caches stuck in people's basement. The schools. The Mosques.

Again, military strategy 101. Basic stuff. With warnings, no less. Ample warnings. Lots of time (and indeed, lots of people have heeded them, thank God) to leave the area.

Now, contrast that to the strategies the terrorists use. Car/suicide bombs, no leaflets, intentionally targeting civilian places where lots of people gather and that there are no weapons caches present. There is no reason to be targeting these places other than civilian deaths...none at all. That's terrorism. That's intentionally targeting civilians and children. That's what the Israeli army is fighting.

I deplore the deaths on all sides. I hate to hear that people are dying because of this. I can't stand to see the bodies of dead children. ON ANY SIDE. But I also completely understand why Israel is doing what they're doing...their children are at risk, from an enemy which doesn't give warnings, which stores weapons in childrens homes, and which will use whatever means, fair or foul, to accomplish their goal - and that goal is the destruction of a nation called Israel.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Andy9o8 2]

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Well Bill what is the answer then?


Israel is far from perfect, but every time a concession is made there is another attack.

Bill if you were running Israel what would you do?

Pull back to WITHIN my legal borders. Illegally occupying land outside your borders and then giving a little bit of it back is not really making a concession.

-

Those are fallacies - the notions that (a) if only Israel withdraws to its pre-1967 borders, it will enjoy peace, or (b) Israel refuses to give up the occupied territories.

In the peace process which began in the 1990's in Oslo, Israel made it clear it would withdraw from the occupied territories and accept a sovereign Palestinian state adjacent to it in exchange for TRUE peace - an acknowledgment that it has the right to exist as a sovereign nation in peace, and absolute guarantees to its security. Their last (but probably not final) offer to Arafat was a return of approximately 95% of all of the territories. At long last, they were very, very close to a deal. But instead of continuing the process with a counter-offer, Arafat broke off negotiations, under a BS pretense, knowing that militantly anti-Israel Palestinians (which he used to be before the PLO went "legit"), wouldn't accept the deal and would undercut him.

Reality check: hostilities against Israel have never TRULY truly been about occupation of the post-1967 territories (which were just as "occupied" by Egypt and Jordan from 1948 to 1967, but who ever challenged them on that?) The "occupation" slogan is a smokescreen to camouflage the true goal Israel's enemies have always had, and still have: its total destruction. In the past 58 years, there wouldn't have been 1 bullet fired or 1 bomb dropped if Israel's neighbors had done just one simple thing: left it alone.

[micro 0]

thank you, Michele, as usually, very well said.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[warpedskydiver 0]

To The Concerned Citizen of The World:

"Killing innocent civilians is NOT an act of self-defense. Destroying a sovereign nation is NOT a measured response."

Lebanese civilians have been under the constant attack of the state of Israel for several days. The State of Israel, in disregard to international law and the Geneva Convention, is launching a maritime and air siege targeting the entire population of the country. Innocent civilians are being collectively punished in Lebanon, by the state of Israel for attacks by groups not given proper authority by the legitimate government of Lebanon, in deliberate retaliation to acts of terrorism as described in Article 33 of the Geneva Convention.

Hizbollah has now turned Lebanon into a war zone now and the ones that suffer are the Lebanese.

Occupying territory of a soveriegn nation, and using that land to attack another sovereign country, is a horrendus act, and is cleary criminal according to international law, and shall be dealt with Militarily, and Diplomatically, as well as Financially for said acts of war.

The Lebanese people feel left out by the world that is turning a blind eye on the savagery of the Israeli state. Israel does not seem to be capable of approaching any problem outside the realm of the military power bestowed on it by the government of the United States of America and other western governments in dealing with acts of terrorism visited upon the citizens of Israel and Lebanon alike.

We are writing you this letter in the hope that this impending massacre is immediately stopped. It is the universal duty of each individual to defend the innocents and expose the truth. The numerous civilian victims of the Israeli operations are increasing by the hour. The viciousness of the attacks by both sides has attained terrifying levels where a child has been cut in three while another was half burned.

The Israeli war machine, in its blind savagery, is destroying not only our lives but the foundations that could help the civilians survive beyond their massacre. The Israeli Defense Forces are destroying in few hours what Lebanon has spent years and billions of dollars to rebuild.

Up until now more than 300 Lebanese civilians have been killed and thousands missing under the rubbles , thousands wounded, bridges and infrastructure destroyed, refugees are leaving Beirut in droves and worst of all the enforced siege might lead to a human catastrophe in the next few days. There must be an end to this cycle of violence and continuous violation of international laws and basic ethical behavior.

Hizbollah is now using road blocks to stop Lebanese civilians from evacuating the area of operations in southern Lebanon.

Between the blindness of the international community and the intentional deafness of the Arab one, the besieged Lebanese population has no way out.

Peace begins with justice

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That would be a much better and more accurate statement.

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[Gawain 0]

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http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48976 this is old, but it seems this is the headline the terrorists are expecting to see.

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"Even a loud explosion in a vacant lot could shatter our solidarity at this point," Olmert added.

That's good satire.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[miked10270 0]

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[replyI really don't see the difference between car bombs detonated in a street and a 500lb GP bomb dropped into a street from a jet - other than the 500lb bomb will cause more damage..

What bothers me about that statement is simply this.

Katyusha rockets are mobile launcher based. Meaning, that they can be anywhere, at any time, and be fired. Two minutes later, or approximately one minute after they have been detected, the laucher can be gone.

Furthermore, there have been weapons caches discovered on the first floor of several apartment buildings. In schools, storage lockers at central gathering stations, in mosques.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I inferred that it is your contention that Israel unleashing its Armor and Infantry on Lebonon is a good thing. Am I wrong? If I'm wrong and you were just merely making a statement than I oppoligize.

I call Bullshit.

"people in general dying" and "brownish people" does not jibe with that in the least.

If you sit around and chear for war, then you get excited about "people in general dying". The "brownish people" part was more of an emotional response to what is a pretty sad state of affairs.

you know, it really IS a sad state of affairs. but what really is the solution over there? will any nation really be the first to lay down their guns? should Israel be the first, only to let her enemies use that as the chance they've been waiting for to storm in and anhilate her?

will there ever be peace in the middle east?

I don't know what the answer is but this clearly isn't it. Maybe there could be a single democratic state in Isreal (including the West Bank and Gaza) where Muslims and Jews have equal access to social, political, and economic resourses.

but how will that work when they, muslims and jews, hate each other so much and each think that the other's fundamental religious identity is flawed?

Probably not really well. There would probably be a lot of political assasinations and violent protests, I'm sure a fair amount of terrorism on both sides. But maybe after generations there would be some comprimise and eventually cooperation. Maybe each side would move a little bit more to the middle over time. Almost definitly wouldn't work, but something has got to be better than the alternative, somewhat inevitable Armageddon: then the only winners are the Fundementalist Christians.

Before 1948, Jews & Muslims lived side-by-side there in relative peace.

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[Michele 1]

Mike, I understand what you're saying. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

I think, frankly, with the Israeli movement into Lebanon today, we will see door to door searches and "clearing" of these caches (those which haven't been moved already). The difficulty is, then, the number of casualties incurred during this street combat (which IDF is very capable of).

I think it's an awful situation. It's a terrible, horrific thing for all parties involved. And I also think that Israel is doing what she believes she needs to do to ensure her own survival...and that's the roughest thing a nation could ever consider.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Gawain 0]

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Before 1948, Jews & Muslims lived side-by-side there in relative peace.

That's because it was a British mandate, under the Empire's protection.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[idrankwhat 0]

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Reality check: hostilities against Israel have never TRULY truly been about occupation of the post-1967 territories (which were just as "occupied" by Egypt and Jordan from 1948 to 1967, but who ever challenged them on that?) The "occupation" slogan is a smokescreen to camouflage the true goal Israel's enemies have always had, and still have: its total destruction. In the past 58 years, there wouldn't have been 1 bullet fired or 1 bomb dropped if Israel's neighbors had done just one simple thing: left it alone.

This is true. Many in the region have called for the extinction of Israel and that's completely unacceptable. But if Israel would pull back to it's borders and then allow international troops to come in and help (which has been offered but declined) then Israel would have shown that they're seriously interested in peace by putting the ball squarely in the anti-Israel community's court. But they don't do that, they continue to occupy land that is not theirs and pre-emptively and disproportionately defend themselves. That, in my mind, makes them no better than their adversaries.
And as a side bar regarding Israel's "concessions" I just read that when Israel pulled out of (most of) Lebanon last time they promised to provide maps for the 140,000 mines that they left behind. They haven't done that yet. Nice.

[Amazon 7]

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But, by the Israeli standard, would it have been "reasonable" for Britain to have tasked the RAF to have bombed parts of Belfast & Londonderry? Border towns in Eire? Terrorists were being harboured there.

Actually that is just what some Para officers that came to the USAF SERE School in the late 1970's to teach interrogation techniques that they had found usefull against the"terrorists" advocated... they were full of wonderful "Mick" references... I did remind him that quite a few Americans had a wee bit of Irish heritage since the Brits were so kind to the farmers of Ireland in the mid-1800's.. hell only half the population died.

[Darius11 12]

All Israel needs to do to ensure her freedom is respecting the borders of its neighbors and treat them with dignity. You can not cross borders whenever you wish and arrest who ever you wish. You can’t act like a dictator to your neighbors.

Killing a 100 children really doesn’t help any one go towards peace.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[micro 0]

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All Israel needs to do to ensure her freedom is respecting the borders of its neighbors and treat them with dignity. You can not cross borders whenever you wish and arrest who ever you wish. You can’t act like a dictator to your neighbors.

Killing a 100 children really doesn’t help any one go towards peace.

and all Israel's neighbors need to do is.... what exactly?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[billvon 3,050]

>and all Israel's neighbors need to do is.... what exactly?

Same thing basically.

[micro 0]

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>and all Israel's neighbors need to do is.... what exactly?

Same thing basically.

well I was sort of waiting for darius' reply, since he seems to see Israel as this big aggressor...

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[kallend 2,098]

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Before 1948, Jews & Muslims lived side-by-side there in relative peace.

That's because it was a British mandate, under the Empire's protection.

Just like India and Pakistan. Maybe the Empire should be reconstituted.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[miked10270 0]

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But, by the Israeli standard, would it have been "reasonable" for Britain to have tasked the RAF to have bombed parts of Belfast & Londonderry? Border towns in Eire? Terrorists were being harboured there.

Actually that is just what some Para officers that came to the USAF SERE School in the late 1970's .... quite a few Americans had a wee bit of Irish heritage since the Brits were so kind to the farmers of Ireland in the mid-1800's.. hell only half the population died.

It's one thing for a few officers to say "If Only" over a few pints in the mess. Another very different thing for a nation to make it a policy! Compare the British Army's actions in NI with Israels current actions, hardly the same thing.

As for Americans having Irish Blood. We did notice that, along with the money PIRA raised in America & all the Armalites PIRA got!

AS for the Irish Potato Famine... This may come as a surprise to America's version of Irish history, but it WAS an act of nature! England didn't go over and poison Irish crops. I don't recall any international aid packages & food parcels coming over from America at the time either.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Richards 0]

Very well said. Regrettably Isreal will always be a whipping boy who is held to an unrealistically high standard of restraint relative to its enemies.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Michele 1]

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All Israel needs to do to ensure her freedom is respecting the borders of its neighbors and treat them with dignity. You can not cross borders whenever you wish and arrest who ever you wish. You can’t act like a dictator to your neighbors.

All Hisbollah needed to do was not cross over the borders and not kidnap and kill some IDF. You can't attack your neighbor and expect to not have retaliation. Simple, no?

But alas, it's not that simple. It wasn't that simple back when Israel pulled out of Gaza. Or of Lebanon. Israel did, and was attacked for it's pull out. It wasn't that simple back when Israel defended herself against quite a few neighbors, all who've sworn to see the end of Israel as a nation. It certainly wasn't that easy back in 48, when they, a nascent nation, was attacked and had to defend immediately their right to exist.

Simple. See?

Someone put it eloquently on another thread. If Israel's neighbors had laid down their arms, there would have been peace. If Israel had laid down her arms, they would not exist.

That is, sadly, the simple fact.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[tbrown 26]

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Trust me I don’t doubt that the Israelis would like to exterminate all their neighbors but they will not succeed. Every time they kill and spill more blood even people who did not like these groups are beginning to understand why they have been doing what they have for years.

I don't understand why they get onboard crowded city buses and detonate a suicide bomb. I don't understand why they think they would gain a shred of sympathy from anyone by seizing the Church of the Nativity for two months and transforming the traditional birthplace of Jesus Christ into a stinking urinal. Tell me Darius, what would YOU say if anyone did that to your favorite mosque ? Oh and then there was that Munich thing back in 1972....

Most Americans have NO fucking sympathy for Arabs or Muslims in general and it's almost entirely due to their totally unacceptable behavior and the fact that they tell a lie for every occasion. Israel's got some problems with the way tjey treat Palestionians, but people with their backs to the wall tend to have short tempers - because they have to. And until the Palestinians can learn to behave like civilized human beings - they can just fuck off and die.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[billvon 3,050]

>I don't understand why they get onboard crowded city buses and detonate a suicide bomb.

Because they think they had a good reason. They kill dozens of civilians at a time - we killed 350,000 civilians with two nuclear bombs a while back. Ours is the more moral of the two because we won the war.

>Most Americans have NO fucking sympathy for Arabs or Muslims in general . . .

Most americans can tell the difference between terrorists and arabs. Let's hope the rest of the world can tell the difference between Lynndie England (and her fellow torturers) and americans.

>And until the Palestinians can learn to behave like civilized human
>beings - they can just fuck off and die.

Again, let's hope the rest of the world does not share the same sort of view towards us.

[Gawain 0]

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Before 1948, Jews & Muslims lived side-by-side there in relative peace.

That's because it was a British mandate, under the Empire's protection.

Just like India and Pakistan. Maybe the Empire should be reconstituted.

I won't advocate that, but you could admit that there was an interesting amount of clarity back then (e.g. cold war/British Empire, etc).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!