warpedskydiver 0 #1 July 23, 2006 Survival May Equal Victory for Hezbollah Sunday, July 23, 2006 1:27 AM EDT The Associated Press By HAMZA HENDAWI Listen to Audio BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) — Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah acknowledges that Israeli troops can sweep across south Lebanon. But if he and his militants can survive and keep fighting, he will cement his image as the unlikely new hero of Arab nationalism. Israeli troops backed by tanks fought their way into southern Lebanon Saturday at the start of a ground assault to drive the Islamic guerrilla group away from the border and put Israeli cities beyond the reach of its rockets. "I don't want to raise expectations. I never said that the Israelis cannot reach any place in southern Lebanon," says Nasrallah, a black-turbaned Shiite cleric whom Israel has tried repeatedly to kill. "Our dogma and strategy is when the Israelis come, they must pay a high price. This is what we promise and this is what we will achieve, God willing." The fighting was sparked by Hezbollah's July 12 capture of two Israeli soldiers and the killing of eight others in a cross-border raid. A massive Israeli offensive followed and Hezbollah responded by firing hundreds of rockets at Israel. More than 370 people have been killed in Lebanon over the past 11 days, authorities said. In Israel, 34 have died. Anticipating the ground assault, Nasrallah sought to ensure his group's survival and safeguard its widening base of support in Lebanon and abroad by lowering the bar for what would constitute victory. In a television interview broadcast Friday, he defined victory as a successful defense. And he acknowledges the gravity of defeat. "A defeat in Lebanon will end the region's resistance movements, the Palestinian cause and impose Israel's conditions for a settlement," he warned. His previous warnings were even more dire. "If Israel is able to defeat the resistance in Palestine and Lebanon, God forbid, then the Arab world, governments and peoples will drown in eternal humiliation from which they will have no way out." Hezbollah's chances of victory lie as much in its guerrilla capability as in Nasrallah's leadership. He has led the group since 1992, taking over after his predecessor was killed in an Israeli helicopter attack. A fiery orator who deftly mixes threats with lighthearted comments, Nasrallah lost his 18-year-old son, Hadi, during a fight with Israeli troops in 1997. He refused to receive mourners, praised God's "ultimate grace and kindness" for choosing a family member as a martyr and allowed another son, Jawad, to join the guerrillas. "We love martyrdom," he said on Friday. "But we take precautions to deny the enemy an easy victory." On paper, Hezbollah's chances of surviving a military setback and regrouping to fight again are good. Most of its estimated 5,000-6,000 fighters are hardened by years of combat against Israel during its 18-year control of a border strip in southern Lebanon. The Iranian- and Syrian-backed organization, listed as a terrorist group by the United States, has a typical guerrilla arsenal that includes assault rifles, mines, light artillery, mortars and — most importantly — missiles with ranges of up to 45 miles. It enjoys popular support in southern and eastern Lebanon. Victory or defeat, Nasrallah already has a place in the hearts of millions of Arabs angered and ashamed by their governments' perceived acquiescence to Israeli and U.S. policies. A defeat on the battlefield is unlikely to change that so long as Hezbollah is seen to have put up a good fight. In fact, it could give the 46-year-old, mid-ranking cleric hero status. Nasrallah's rise to Arab stardom, said Ibrahim Bayram of Beirut's respected An-Nahar daily, was owed in part to his tireless attempts to rise above the Shiite-Sunni divide by forging close ties with Sunni Muslims — who are the overwhelming majority of the world's Arabs. "He has ambitions to become a leader of the Muslim world," said Bayram. Charismatic, sharp and media savvy, Nasrallah seems aware of respect and admiration he and his organization enjoy. He speaks with a confidence that sometimes borders on arrogance. He also taunts his critics in the Arab world, led by key U.S. allies Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. "I say to Arab leaders: I don't want your swords and I don't want your hearts ... Leave us alone." Such undiplomatic talk resonates with many Arabs. His fiery rhetoric harkens back to Gamal Abdel-Nasser, Egypt's late president who led his nation to disastrous military defeat by Israel in 1967. But Nasser's political resilience and charisma made him a respected Arab nationalist leader until his death in 1970. "Nasrallah is doing what Arab governments are unwilling or incapable of doing — fighting Israel. He is embarrassing them," said Vali Nasr, an expert on Shiites who lectures on national security affairs at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School in Monterrey, Calif. "Many people in the Middle East reward courage, not wisdom," said Nasr. Quote Shit like this will never help the Arabic peoples. Why can't they come up with a Ghandi or MLK? There ARE Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Druse, that all just want to get along and live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StreetScooby 5 #2 July 23, 2006 Quote "We love martyrdom," he said on Friday. "But we take precautions to deny the enemy an easy victory." The US is shipping Israel 5000lb bunker busters. Nasrallah better start ducking alot more.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeryde13 0 #3 July 23, 2006 there's an ald chinese saying that says " think how ever action you take will effect your family 7 generations from now . Another one that says always give your enemy a way out or ou will face there most feirce fighting. That's why they are not afraid to die . they say that this generation is lost and they are fighting for their next generations . on our end ..... yes we need to secure oil for the next 10 -20 years when supplies will be tight ( we don't need to but that's the reasoning behind our mid east polocy ) but it's like chess , to win the game , you don't take a piece every time you can , you play with a stratigy . So what they mean by survival equals victory is that if they bankrupt America ( and there fore Israel ) then they will win . If they need those bunker busters and guided missles and tanks and jets and warships to stalemate 5000 -10000 solders then they will go broke trying to defeat them . Not now or in a ew years .... but in 10 or fifteen years .... and no the oil won't even cover the costs . And after we alienate the rest of the world it will be the us and Israel ( who is no help to us ) against the rest of the world in public opinion . once they move away from the dollar as the standard we are finacailly defeated ._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,059 #4 July 23, 2006 >think how ever action you take will effect your family 7 generations from now. "In our every deliberation we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations." - Great Law of the Iroquois Confederacy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #5 July 23, 2006 Those paraphrases are from The Art of War by Sun Tzu. It was written more then 2000 years ago. Politicians never learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeryde13 0 #6 July 23, 2006 the one about 7 generations is actuall from a book called something like hagakure . it isn't chinese actually japaneses along the lines of the book of 5 rings . it's the book that the movie "ghost dog" quotes from . I lent the book out never to see it again or I'd give you the particulars ._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #7 July 23, 2006 Yeah... As long as Hezb'Allah survives, even if it's only as an idea (and it's hard to see how even the memory can be destroyed, then they've won this one. All Israel is doing is creating martyrs... "Heroes who died protecting the children." I can see Hezb'Allah's recruiting slogans for the next 100 years coming out of this one regardless of how militarily successful Israel is. For example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5207478.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5208110.stm http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=24&ID=298314&r=2 Israel comes across as the bully in this, which is unusual for them, they were usually very good at justifying their military actions in the past. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #8 July 23, 2006 QuoteIsrael comes across as the bully in this, which is unusual for them, they were usually very good at justifying their military actions in the past. Mike, the Israelis have always sucked ass at public relations outside of the US. The justification is explained if you dig deep enough into the various sources' news stories (which means looking beyond the BBC or the Guardian) and piece them into the big picture. Israeli and American intelligence has been aware of thousands of Iranian Katyusha rockets being transported over the past months through Syria to into Lebanon's Bekaa Valley and deployed by Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah stores its weapons and sets up its command-and-control locations, and its hardened bunkers, in the heart of city and village population centers. For example, one of the places from which Katyusha rockets are being fired at Israel are from the center of the city of Tyre. (There was a picture of a rocket launch from Tyre on CNN.com earlier today, but I don't think that picture's up any longer.) It's called using human shields, and it's not done by accident. It's to present Israel with a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma: if Israel restrains itself and only goes after targets out in the middle of nowhere, the other 80% of enemy strength is effectively protected by its human shields and remains intact to continue to attack Israel. If Israel goes after enemy targets in all places where they exist, including where civilians are, it will be seen as an out-of-control bully, and predictably the UN and the French will call for "restraint". The practical problem with restraint, of course, is that it leaves your enemy largely intact to attack you another day. So, what you have is not a lack of military justification for bombing those sites - but rather, a conflict between the military justification and the moral justification. In other words, when does Hezbollah's (or Hamas's, etc.) use of a human shield essentially win out over Israel's need to defend itself by crippling the military threat against it? I think that's a tough decision to for either of us to make from the comfort of our armchairs 5,000 miles away from the conflict. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #9 July 24, 2006 This is typical Arab thinking - as long as they aren't wiped out, it's a "victory". Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind, so just surviving is enough to give them bragging rights in the Arab world. Saddam could make the same claim about the Iran-Iraq War. He was still in power after that disaster, so he was a hero because he stood up to the evil Persians. Never mind that he was the one who started it in the first place. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeryde13 0 #10 July 24, 2006 Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind the pyramids in gaza , science , mathamatics , farming , and the first civilizations were all achieved by the european jews living in the area the past 60 years or so and funded by the world bank right ?_________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #11 July 24, 2006 Quote Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind the pyramids in gaza , science , mathamatics , farming , and the first civilizations were all achieved by the european jews living in the area the past 60 years or so and funded by the world bank right ? Since all of those accomplishments happened hundreds of years ago, you only bolster Markharju's point. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeryde13 0 #12 July 25, 2006 thousands of years ago actualy ..... but that's the point ... This is the right now me generation . No thought about the future or the past . What is being built by non arabs right now ( with out assuming the acusers race of coourse ) that will be around in a few thousand years or even a few hundred years . Nothing more than a military empire and a handfull of really rich people and we all know that those don't last . What are we really achieving that is so worthwill right now?_________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #13 July 25, 2006 QuoteWhat is being built by non arabs right now ( with out assuming the acusers race of coourse ) that will be around in a few thousand years or even a few hundred years Are you kidding? Ever looked into the recent advances in hundreds of fields of science and technology? Do you own a computer? Been to a doctor lately? What is being built right now are the foundations of future science and technology, the nature of which most of us can't even imagine will be like in a thousand years. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,059 #14 July 25, 2006 >What is being built right now are the foundations of future science and technology . . . Right. But in that future, someone like yourself may be claiming "Well of course Anglos are worthless riffraff. Computers? Invented hundreds of years ago. Who invented the reactionless drive? And isolinear-crystal light converters? Asians, of course. And why is this? Because actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Anglo mind." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeryde13 0 #15 July 25, 2006 Are you kidding? Ever looked into the recent advances in hundreds of fields of science and technology? Do you own a computer? Been to a doctor lately? What is being built right now are the foundations of future science and technology, the nature of which most of us can't even imagine will be like in a thousand years. your right ... of course your right . We're coming real close to a unification theory , and eco cunstruction is making great strides and as a race ....human race that is ..... we're doing allright if we don't exctinct ourselves . but .... arabs are a part of it s are indians and chinese and anglos and hispanics and blacks and gays etc ._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #16 July 25, 2006 Quote Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind the pyramids in gaza , science , mathamatics , farming , and the first civilizations were all achieved by the european jews living in the area the past 60 years or so and funded by the world bank right ? There are pyramids in Gaza? Did I miss something? Islam took a wrong turn when the scholars decided that pretty much any technical or social advancement was heretical and "un-islamic". The Arab on the street has been living in backward poverty ever since. There was an opportunity for a moslem Enlightenment (which drove the wedge between Church and state. The Reformist movement accelerated it), but it was discarded centuries ago. Now, rather than modernize their society, they've learned to blame everyone else (especially the USA and Israel) for just about everything. Don't take my word for it - please read the words of Dr Wafa Sultan: ------------------------ "What we see unfolding on the international scene is not a clash of religions or civilizations. It is a clash of two contradicting opposites, it is a clash of eras, between a mentality that belongs in the Middle Ages and that which belongs in the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, chaos and rationality, a conflict between freedom and oppression, democracy and dictatorship, human rights on the one hand and the violation of these rights on the other, between those who treat women like animals and those who treat them like human beings." ----------------------- The islamist position is indefensible, and those who think otherwise are misguided. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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StreetScooby 5 #2 July 23, 2006 Quote "We love martyrdom," he said on Friday. "But we take precautions to deny the enemy an easy victory." The US is shipping Israel 5000lb bunker busters. Nasrallah better start ducking alot more.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #3 July 23, 2006 there's an ald chinese saying that says " think how ever action you take will effect your family 7 generations from now . Another one that says always give your enemy a way out or ou will face there most feirce fighting. That's why they are not afraid to die . they say that this generation is lost and they are fighting for their next generations . on our end ..... yes we need to secure oil for the next 10 -20 years when supplies will be tight ( we don't need to but that's the reasoning behind our mid east polocy ) but it's like chess , to win the game , you don't take a piece every time you can , you play with a stratigy . So what they mean by survival equals victory is that if they bankrupt America ( and there fore Israel ) then they will win . If they need those bunker busters and guided missles and tanks and jets and warships to stalemate 5000 -10000 solders then they will go broke trying to defeat them . Not now or in a ew years .... but in 10 or fifteen years .... and no the oil won't even cover the costs . And after we alienate the rest of the world it will be the us and Israel ( who is no help to us ) against the rest of the world in public opinion . once they move away from the dollar as the standard we are finacailly defeated ._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,059 #4 July 23, 2006 >think how ever action you take will effect your family 7 generations from now. "In our every deliberation we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations." - Great Law of the Iroquois Confederacy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #5 July 23, 2006 Those paraphrases are from The Art of War by Sun Tzu. It was written more then 2000 years ago. Politicians never learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #6 July 23, 2006 the one about 7 generations is actuall from a book called something like hagakure . it isn't chinese actually japaneses along the lines of the book of 5 rings . it's the book that the movie "ghost dog" quotes from . I lent the book out never to see it again or I'd give you the particulars ._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #7 July 23, 2006 Yeah... As long as Hezb'Allah survives, even if it's only as an idea (and it's hard to see how even the memory can be destroyed, then they've won this one. All Israel is doing is creating martyrs... "Heroes who died protecting the children." I can see Hezb'Allah's recruiting slogans for the next 100 years coming out of this one regardless of how militarily successful Israel is. For example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5207478.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5208110.stm http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=24&ID=298314&r=2 Israel comes across as the bully in this, which is unusual for them, they were usually very good at justifying their military actions in the past. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #8 July 23, 2006 QuoteIsrael comes across as the bully in this, which is unusual for them, they were usually very good at justifying their military actions in the past. Mike, the Israelis have always sucked ass at public relations outside of the US. The justification is explained if you dig deep enough into the various sources' news stories (which means looking beyond the BBC or the Guardian) and piece them into the big picture. Israeli and American intelligence has been aware of thousands of Iranian Katyusha rockets being transported over the past months through Syria to into Lebanon's Bekaa Valley and deployed by Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah stores its weapons and sets up its command-and-control locations, and its hardened bunkers, in the heart of city and village population centers. For example, one of the places from which Katyusha rockets are being fired at Israel are from the center of the city of Tyre. (There was a picture of a rocket launch from Tyre on CNN.com earlier today, but I don't think that picture's up any longer.) It's called using human shields, and it's not done by accident. It's to present Israel with a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma: if Israel restrains itself and only goes after targets out in the middle of nowhere, the other 80% of enemy strength is effectively protected by its human shields and remains intact to continue to attack Israel. If Israel goes after enemy targets in all places where they exist, including where civilians are, it will be seen as an out-of-control bully, and predictably the UN and the French will call for "restraint". The practical problem with restraint, of course, is that it leaves your enemy largely intact to attack you another day. So, what you have is not a lack of military justification for bombing those sites - but rather, a conflict between the military justification and the moral justification. In other words, when does Hezbollah's (or Hamas's, etc.) use of a human shield essentially win out over Israel's need to defend itself by crippling the military threat against it? I think that's a tough decision to for either of us to make from the comfort of our armchairs 5,000 miles away from the conflict. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #9 July 24, 2006 This is typical Arab thinking - as long as they aren't wiped out, it's a "victory". Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind, so just surviving is enough to give them bragging rights in the Arab world. Saddam could make the same claim about the Iran-Iraq War. He was still in power after that disaster, so he was a hero because he stood up to the evil Persians. Never mind that he was the one who started it in the first place. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #10 July 24, 2006 Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind the pyramids in gaza , science , mathamatics , farming , and the first civilizations were all achieved by the european jews living in the area the past 60 years or so and funded by the world bank right ?_________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #11 July 24, 2006 Quote Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind the pyramids in gaza , science , mathamatics , farming , and the first civilizations were all achieved by the european jews living in the area the past 60 years or so and funded by the world bank right ? Since all of those accomplishments happened hundreds of years ago, you only bolster Markharju's point. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #12 July 25, 2006 thousands of years ago actualy ..... but that's the point ... This is the right now me generation . No thought about the future or the past . What is being built by non arabs right now ( with out assuming the acusers race of coourse ) that will be around in a few thousand years or even a few hundred years . Nothing more than a military empire and a handfull of really rich people and we all know that those don't last . What are we really achieving that is so worthwill right now?_________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #13 July 25, 2006 QuoteWhat is being built by non arabs right now ( with out assuming the acusers race of coourse ) that will be around in a few thousand years or even a few hundred years Are you kidding? Ever looked into the recent advances in hundreds of fields of science and technology? Do you own a computer? Been to a doctor lately? What is being built right now are the foundations of future science and technology, the nature of which most of us can't even imagine will be like in a thousand years. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,059 #14 July 25, 2006 >What is being built right now are the foundations of future science and technology . . . Right. But in that future, someone like yourself may be claiming "Well of course Anglos are worthless riffraff. Computers? Invented hundreds of years ago. Who invented the reactionless drive? And isolinear-crystal light converters? Asians, of course. And why is this? Because actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Anglo mind." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #15 July 25, 2006 Are you kidding? Ever looked into the recent advances in hundreds of fields of science and technology? Do you own a computer? Been to a doctor lately? What is being built right now are the foundations of future science and technology, the nature of which most of us can't even imagine will be like in a thousand years. your right ... of course your right . We're coming real close to a unification theory , and eco cunstruction is making great strides and as a race ....human race that is ..... we're doing allright if we don't exctinct ourselves . but .... arabs are a part of it s are indians and chinese and anglos and hispanics and blacks and gays etc ._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #16 July 25, 2006 Quote Actually achieveing anything truly worthwhile is impossible in the Arab mind the pyramids in gaza , science , mathamatics , farming , and the first civilizations were all achieved by the european jews living in the area the past 60 years or so and funded by the world bank right ? There are pyramids in Gaza? Did I miss something? Islam took a wrong turn when the scholars decided that pretty much any technical or social advancement was heretical and "un-islamic". The Arab on the street has been living in backward poverty ever since. There was an opportunity for a moslem Enlightenment (which drove the wedge between Church and state. The Reformist movement accelerated it), but it was discarded centuries ago. Now, rather than modernize their society, they've learned to blame everyone else (especially the USA and Israel) for just about everything. Don't take my word for it - please read the words of Dr Wafa Sultan: ------------------------ "What we see unfolding on the international scene is not a clash of religions or civilizations. It is a clash of two contradicting opposites, it is a clash of eras, between a mentality that belongs in the Middle Ages and that which belongs in the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, chaos and rationality, a conflict between freedom and oppression, democracy and dictatorship, human rights on the one hand and the violation of these rights on the other, between those who treat women like animals and those who treat them like human beings." ----------------------- The islamist position is indefensible, and those who think otherwise are misguided. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
