Bombardment of the UN Lebanon post

[jaaska 0]

So... In these days of precision-guided weapons, it was an accident... RIGHT!

The post's location was well known for years, on high ground with VERY distinguished markings (READ: VERY BIG UN LETTERS on the roof etc.)

Oh, and your UN guy John Bolton is a sissy...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5216230.stm

[meatbomb 0]

So the question is:

What did the UN observers observe that necessitated such a sustained and brutal assault?

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[bogwarrior 0]

Isreal doesnt want to stop, i dont think they care that this has made it much more difficult to send in a peacekeeping force. It does go to show that they are in a frenzied state.. hit anything that moves. According to Israeli Army radio this morning everything in South Lebanon is fair game now including civilians. In other countries George Bush would be calling it ethnic cleansing.. ( assuming there was an American interest in the region )

Anyway back on track I watched a BBC report of a cement truck getting smashed.. the reporter said that perhaps it looked like a missile launcher from the air.

I dont know the weaponry .. but it seems odd that you can drop a bomb accurately but not actually see what it is your bombing very clearly from the air..

[miked10270 0]

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... I watched a BBC report of a cement truck getting smashed.. the reporter said that perhaps it looked like a missile launcher from the air.

I dont know the weaponry .. but it seems odd that you can drop a bomb accurately but not actually see what it is your bombing very clearly from the air..

I'm pretty sure that Israel is using export F-16s. I believe that they cannot designate their own targets for laser guided weapons and that this designation is done by ground troops pointing a laser designator at the target and the plane only having to drop the bomb in the general area for the guidance package to pick up the laser.

So the IAF are simply dropping ordnace "fairly close" for ground troops to guide in.

Taking a wider view... America appears to be further promoting world peace, by coalescing the world into "The US" & "The United Countries of the Rest of the World".

The "UCRW" even has it's own flag... Same as America's, only on fire!



Mike.

PS: Just to cover counter-argument #1:

"Das "Vereinigte Länder des Restes der Welt" hat es sogar soll Markierungsfahne besitzen... Selben wie Amerika, aber auf Feuer!"

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Richards 0]

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So... In these days of precision-guided weapons, it was an accident... RIGHT!

The post's location was well known for years, on high ground with VERY distinguished markings (READ: VERY BIG UN LETTERS on the roof etc.)

During the initial war in afghanistan a US pilot dropped a precision-guided bomb on Canadian troops in a known coalition training area. Unless you would suggest that US pilots would deliberately murder Canadian troops I think it has to be considered that even with modern technology accidents like this can happen. Would it not be better to allow Isreal the benefit of the doubt pending an investigation?

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Would it not be better to allow Isreal the benefit of the doubt pending an investigation?

Absolutely, though the minimum of 10 confirmed phone calls really do make you wonder....

[billvon 3,006]

>During the initial war in afghanistan a US pilot dropped a precision-
>guided bomb on Canadian troops in a known coalition training area.

True. Although if the US had been dropping bombs closer to the Canadians each time, and each time the Canadians frantically called the local commander to get him to stop, and they finally got him on the 11th bombing run - I'd be a bit more suspicious.

[jaaska 0]

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>During the initial war in afghanistan a US pilot dropped a precision-
>guided bomb on Canadian troops in a known coalition training area.

True. Although if the US had been dropping bombs closer to the Canadians each time, and each time the Canadians frantically called the local commander to get him to stop, and they finally got him on the 11th bombing run - I'd be a bit more suspicious.

Plus the six calls the from UN Lebanon HQ...

So, 16 calls... WTF?! And no, it was not a time issue... The first call was placed almost 12 hours prior the final hit that totally levelled the place... 12 hours in bombardment. Think about it...

Well, I can only guess that Israel wants the UN people out of the southern Lebanon, so that they can go on doing their "thing" without disturbance. It seems like it's working. Different countries are pulling their UN observers out of the southern Lebanon (among them Australia)... Can't really blame them though...

[miked10270 0]

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The post's location was well known for years, on high ground with VERY distinguished markings (READ: VERY BIG UN LETTERS on the roof etc.)

During the initial war in afghanistan a US pilot dropped a precision-guided bomb on Canadian troops in a known coalition training area. Unless you would suggest that US pilots would deliberately murder Canadian troops I think it has to be considered that even with modern technology accidents like this can happen. Would it not be better to allow Isreal the benefit of the doubt pending an investigation?

During the initial war in Afghanistan, The US DIDN'T: Shell a fixed Canadian post, whose location was clearly marked on their maps and on the building, for 6 hours, correcting their fire, then bomb it, and fire on the rescue attempt, while acknowledging repeated phone & radio calls for them to stop, but not stopping!

There really isn't much doubt to give Israel the benefit of in this one.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[billvon 3,006]

>There really isn't much doubt to give Israel the benefit of in this one.

But we should wait for their investigation . . .

Why do I get the feeling the results of their investigation will be similar to some of the results of investigations into mob hits? "After taking into account the scene of the crime, the condition of the deceased, and the costs of blaming the mob, we have determined that the deceased shot himself in the head nine times."

[TheAnvil 0]

Hmmm...

I personally blame Hezbollah for all casualties inflicted by either side in the current Lebanon crisis. If they were interested in stopping the killing, they would release the soldiers.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,006]

>I personally blame Hezbollah for all casualties inflicted by either side . . .

Sort of a departure from your normal logic, where you blame the person doing the killing for the killing.

[miked10270 0]

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>There really isn't much doubt to give Israel the benefit of in this one.

But we should wait for their investigation . . .

Why do I get the feeling the results of their investigation will be similar to some of the results of investigations into mob hits? "After taking into account...we have determined that the deceased shot himself in the head nine times."

I'm betting on:

"All this has been traced to a the criminally insane actions of a single (junior) officer who was manning all the phones and the radios at the same time as he was artillery spotter and forward air controller. We would prosecute him, but he was killed in later fighting / accident / heart attack / suicide. We won't name him so as not to upset his family. We are reviewing our procedures regarding junior officer workload...."

Unfortunately, no-one seems willing to cover the bet!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[wmw999 2,456]

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I personally blame Hezbollah for all casualties inflicted by either side in the current Lebanon crisis

I blame God. If he hadn't given Israel to the Chosen People all those years ago, they'd never be fighting over it now

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Trent 0]

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'm pretty sure that Israel is using export F-16s. I believe that they cannot designate their own targets for laser guided weapons and that this designation is done by ground troops pointing a laser designator at the target and the plane only having to drop the bomb in the general area for the guidance package to pick up the laser.

Not so. While they may not have the US designator platform on-board... if Pakistand has had the French Thompson-CSF ATLIS laser designation pod on their F-16's, chances are that Israel has too.

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?bg=51&id=8

Oh, hello again!

[miked10270 0]

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Not so. While they may not have the US designator platform on-board...

Once again I'm indebted to you.
http://www.vectorsite.net/twbombc.html
(about2/3rds of the way down)

Third Generation. Slaves to the aircraft targeting radar, set & forget, low light, low visibility... Grumman makes it under license & half of Europe has bought it for their single-seat aircraft.

All we have to do now is cover the long-established fixed post clearly marked & on Israeli maps, six hours of shelling, the radio calls, phone calls and attack on the rescue attempt!

I still think that Israel is pursuing a "Scorched-Earth" policy in Southern Lebanon to create a completely unpopulated security zone. If no-one is in the zone, there's no population for Hezb'Allah to merge into... Which is TACTICALLY pretty clever if MORALLY pretty shitty.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I personally blame Hezbollah for all casualties inflicted by either side in the current Lebanon crisis

I blame God. If he hadn't given Israel to the Chosen People all those years ago, they'd never be fighting over it now

Wendy W.

Think about this one: On the way out of Egypt, if Moses had turned right instead of left the Israelis would be sitting on all the oil right now.

Speed Racer
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[TheAnvil 0]

Not really. Hezbollah started a war - they're responsible. The Israelis will kill them until their soldiers are returned. I hope they wipe out many of the terrorist scumbags.

Wendy - that's funny!

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[wmw999 2,456]

The problem, Vinny, is that they're using a really broad brush to "wipe out the terrorist scoundrels." Which ends up being "if you look like one, or are physically close to one, or are where we think one might be, or where one once was" -- you get the picture.

This is a terrible way to work towards peace. If their desire is to be the biggest badass, they're looking like it, but the US can still kick them. We just won't.

But if they want to co-exist in that region, with the other groups, they can't do it entirely on their terms. Which is what they'd really rather do (who wouldn't?).

Note: Hezbollah is wrong here. But dang -- doing a bigger wrong isnt' OK just because Johnny did it first.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,006]

>Hezbollah started a war - they're responsible.

Are we responsible for all the violence in Iraq since we started that?

>I hope they wipe out many of the terrorist scumbags.

I hope for less, rather than more, violence and death. There's already been more than enough to go around.

[Amazon 7]

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But if they want to co-exist in that region, with the other groups, they can't do it entirely on their terms. Which is what they'd really rather do (who wouldn't?).

They cant even do that..... the peace loving muslims of nearly all the surrounding countires will NOT let that happen. No amount of negotiation will ever change their hearts.. because as the leader of Hezbollah put it... they have continually been humiliated.
So its not about justice or injustice.. its about how IMPOTENT a group of men are feeling.
Their only solution is another final one.. to eliminate the entire state of Israel.....and WHAT do all the supporters of the peace loving muslims think THAT will entail???

[Richards 0]

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During the initial war in Afghanistan, The US DIDN'T: Shell a fixed Canadian post, whose location was clearly marked on their maps and on the building, for 6 hours, correcting their fire, then bomb it, and fire on the rescue attempt, while acknowledging repeated phone & radio calls for them to stop, but not stopping!

There really isn't much doubt to give Israel the benefit of in this one.

No....but, The ACO's ( which they are to be breifed on before a flight according to the inquiry) stated that the Canadians were going to at that location ( a training area that the pilots were aware of) at that time. Despite that and the fact that the call that was sent out to hold fire (more than once) the pilot at 22,000 feet felt so threatened that instead of leaving the area (which according to the inquiry was the standard operating procedure), he elected to drop down from 22,000 feet to 10,000 feet ( thus bringing himself closer to the alledged anti-aircraft fire) and fire even after the other pilot had said to first make sure that they were not freindlies.

There was ample evidence that these guys should have known that it was coalition troops in that known training area but they were bombed anyway. It turns out that the hold fire orders were not received, and the pilot was not given the warning that they were freindlies. It is at least possible that this same communication screw-up happened with the Isrealis. I acknowledge that it looks bad but again there has not been an inquiry yet so we should not rush to judgement.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[jakee 1,500]

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No....but, The ACO's ( which they are to be breifed on before a flight according to the inquiry) stated that the Canadians were going to at that location ( a training area that the pilots were aware of) at that time. Despite that and the fact that the call that was sent out to hold fire (more than once) the pilot at 22,000 feet felt so threatened that instead of leaving the area (which according to the inquiry was the standard operating procedure), he elected to drop down from 22,000 feet to 10,000 feet ( thus bringing himself closer to the alledged anti-aircraft fire) and fire even after the other pilot had said to first make sure that they were not freindlies.

I believe that pilot was also on amphetamines at the time, a practise that used to be widespread amongst world air forces to combat fatigue. That may have had something to do with his poor decision making.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Richards 0]

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I believe that pilot was also on amphetamines at the time, a practise that used to be widespread amongst world air forces to combat fatigue. That may have had something to do with his poor decision making.

[TheAnvil 0]

I think the broad brush is the only one they can use right now. The problem with the co-existence paradigm when Israel is dealing with Hamas and Hezbollah is that the latter two do not desire co-existence. They desire the destruction of Israel down to the last citizen. If Hamas and Hezbollah lay down their arms today and release the hostages, there would be peace. If the Israelis were to do the same, they would cease to exist.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!