Time to legalize performance enhancing drugs?

[lawrocket 3]

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Let's go a step further and have two sets of games, races, whatever. An "off yer face" set and a "no enhancements allowed" set. Of course you'd have to take a bit of care in setting up the sites for the throwing type sports - javelin, shot put, hammer throw, etc. but it'd be interesting to see just how far performance enhancing stuff of all natures could take human performance...:-)

This idea is not new. The bodybuilding circuit has events open to all and other events that are only open to "natural" bodybuilders. We would have a problem doing that at higher-level sports. Two pro leagues in baseball sounds ludicrous.

Valid points are made by all who oppose my thoughts - mainly by the effect on the kids. Steroids are somewhat of a problem in baseball's majors. Steroids were - and probably still are - a HUGE problem in the minor leagues.

It is in the minors that those kids say to themselves, "I'm right on the brink. I've got the fielding skills and the hitting talent, but my power numbers are just a little short." Steroids can put those kids over the top.

Which is interesting because there's the thought that the kid would have been fine in another era where steroids didn't augment power numbers. Therein lies the toughest issue with steroids - people now are of the belief that steroids is ruining baseball. The problem with that is that it is highly likely that steroids are responsible for the dramatic rejuvenation of baseball in the mid-to-late 1990's.

After the strikes and labor tensions, etc., you had people upset with baseball - fed up. Enter McGwire and Sosa as Co-Sportmen of the Year. Baseball used to generally be a sport for wiry and agile athletes. You had a few big guys but not many. Even All-Star rosters had players with average weight around 190 pounds.

Here is a link to a graph showing major league baseball player weightsfor the past 131 years. In the 2005 All-Star Game, the average weight for an American League Starter was 214.4 pounds. This is not including Mark Buerhle - the 220 pound pitcher. It includes a 215 pound shortstop (Tejada).

In 1999, the average for the rosters was 199.

So, size matters. Power matters. And for these kids who think, "I'm 6'1 and 195" they look at this and say, "I need to bulk up." A kid who looks like Caminiti in his early career won't get a look unless he's a second baseman.

So sadly, it comes upon the kids. Kids in high school use them. This needs to be stopped, but the war on steroids has gone the same place as the war on drugs. We've got people suggesting that recreational drugs should be legalized. I'm one of them. They should be controlled, in a way, to get them off of the black market.

Once a kid turns 18 or is out of high school, maybe we should have them available so long as there is proper education. I don't know.

Some believe that just quitting on something because it isn't working is not the right approach. My thoughts are, "If at first you don't succeed, try try again. Then consider giving up." WHy waste time and money and effort on an exercise in futility when you can brainstorm different ways of dealing with it?

You dont' keep going down a dead end street. You turn around and go back. It's all I'm suggesting. I may be wrong in thinkign that. But if my idea is tried and it fails miserably, it'll be no worse than doing things the present way.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jakee 1,563]

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Also, I specify performance/appearance because the fact is that most people using these drugs are not competing but are doing so to be happier with there appearance. Which leads to another group of questions. Should transgendered individuals be prevented from taking hormones to feminize or masculinize their appearance. If not then why should other not be able to take male hormones. Then an arguement could be made that plastic surgery is stupid because people overdue it and then look worse, just look at Wayne Newton. So should that too be illegal?

You are confusing seperate issues. When we say performance enhancing drugs are 'illegal' what we generally mean is that they have been banned by the sport's governing body, that they are against the rules. That has nothing to do with actual government type illegality.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Steel 0]

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This idea is not new. The bodybuilding circuit has events open to all and other events that are only open to "natural" bodybuilders. We would have a problem doing that at higher-level sports. Two pro leagues in baseball sounds ludicrous.
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It is true that they have "natural" competitions. But its also true that the people winning typically are natural just long enough to pass the test. Stan Mcquay http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson46.htm is somebody competes in both leagues. Is he really natural? Nobody really knows because he is on the borderline of what can be achieved naturally and what can't. My guess is he is not, but I can't say for certain as I could for Ronnie Coleman that he does.
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So sadly, it comes upon the kids. Kids in high school use them. This needs to be stopped,
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Realistically you can't put a complete stop to it, but I agree, we need to fight to minize the number of occurences, kind of like we need to try to minimize the number of teens using ectsasy.
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Once a kid turns 18 or is out of high school, maybe we should have them available so long as there is proper education. I don't know.
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No, 18 is still too young. 23 maybe even 25 is more like it. Also without maximizing the natural potential first, its kind of a stupid thing to do. For that reason I think a sports doctor's evaluation should first be required.
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If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Steel 0]

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Also, I specify performance/appearance because the fact is that most people using these drugs are not competing but are doing so to be happier with there appearance. Which leads to another group of questions. Should transgendered individuals be prevented from taking hormones to feminize or masculinize their appearance. If not then why should other not be able to take male hormones. Then an arguement could be made that plastic surgery is stupid because people overdue it and then look worse, just look at Wayne Newton. So should that too be illegal?

You are confusing seperate issues. When we say performance enhancing drugs are 'illegal' what we generally mean is that they have been banned by the sport's governing body, that they are against the rules. That has nothing to do with actual government type illegality.

That makes sense coming from a Brit. But here in the U.S., in 1987, steroids were made illegal across the board in all cases of performance/appearance enhancement. I.E. except for cases of supplementing testoserone levels to bring them to a normal level for the person's age (no more than about 100 milgrams for an adult male with a low testoserone level).
To make matters worse in the U.S. in 1990 they criminalized steroids.
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If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[jakee 1,563]

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That makes sense coming from a Brit. But here in the U.S., in 1987, steroids were made illegal across the board in all cases of performance/appearance enhancement. I.E. except for cases of supplementing testoserone levels to bring them to a normal level for the person's age (no more than about 100 milgrams for an adult male with a low testoserone level).
To make matters worse in the U.S. in 1990 they criminalized steroids.

There is a huge list of banned substances in international sport, some of them are completely legal, some are prescription only, some are completely illegal. I'm strongly against doping in competitive sport but have no opinion on whether other people should be allowed to use steroids etc for their own purposes.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Steel 0]

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That makes sense coming from a Brit. But here in the U.S., in 1987, steroids were made illegal across the board in all cases of performance/appearance enhancement. I.E. except for cases of supplementing testoserone levels to bring them to a normal level for the person's age (no more than about 100 milgrams for an adult male with a low testoserone level).
To make matters worse in the U.S. in 1990 they criminalized steroids.

There is a huge list of banned substances in international sport, some of them are completely legal, some are prescription only, some are completely illegal. I'm strongly against doping in competitive sport but have no opinion on whether other people should be allowed to use steroids etc for their own purposes.

I like the prospect of being able to compete in a drug free level playing ground. However, I don't see enforcing that as possible. Its kind of like trying to stop computer viruses with Macaffe or some other program. Some hacker will always want to and therefore find a way to write another harmful virus.

The only difference here is that the playing field can actually be leveled by letting people choose whether or not they want to use.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

so I take it you are taking steroids Steel?

[Steel 0]

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so I take it you are taking steroids Steel?

no I am not taking steroids, I am not a transexual and I am not an Israeli Jew. However, I do defend what I believe doesn't deserve to be witch-hunted.
Oh btw. I am Cuban-American.

Editted to add:
I do not compete in bodybuilding, specifically because I know that a non-user could never compete with competitive users. But just as well, I know many who use and still can't compete even with me. Using or not is just another one of many factors in the outcome.

,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[nathaniel 0]

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I would call it a free-for-all.

Baseball and cycling are already free-for-alls under prohibition.

Total deregulation is not the only alternative to prohibition. Bringing the substances out in the open could have a number of positive effects, the first of which is that consumption could actually be regulated, taxed, and / or limited instead of forced underground where it cannot.

Not to mention that quality controls could be applied to the products, athletes could at least have some confidence that what they are actually taking is what they think they are. And treatment for adverse reactions would likewise benefit if the causative agent could be confidently known.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[billvon 3,072]

>Total deregulation is not the only alternative to prohibition.

How about a "clean" version for high school/college/most sports, and an "enhanced" category for specific sports? Let em use steroids, adrenalin, surgical enhancements, whatever they want. They just have to declare what they're using. (That way we also get volunteers for some very odd medical experiements!)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I am Cuban-American.

I thought you were 100% european?

[Steel 0]

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I am Cuban-American.

I thought you were 100% european?

100% European descent (SPAIN).

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

you are 100% european descendent cuban american?

What a way to not make up your mind.....What do you put down as nationality on official documents?

[pajarito 0]

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Men
- Reduced sperm count
thats funny and bull shit.
- Impotence
IBID
- Development of breasts
Not all types aromitize, but I will give you that some do.

- Shrinking of the testicles
only temporarily because the high amount of testoserone causes the testes to stop working. However they don't stay on for ever, they do it in cycles and use PCT post cycle therapy to restart it.

- Difficulty or pain while urinating
this is bull shit
Women
- Facial hair growth
this is true, but don't you think its obvious that a woman should not be taking MALE hormones, which is what steroids are.

- Deepened voice
IBID
- Breast reduction
Not true, unless she is dieting and loosing severe amounts of fat, in which case without the steroids, the same thing would occur.

- Menstrual cycle changes
this is true, but don't you think its obvious that a woman should not be taking MALE hormones, which is what steroids are.


Both
- Acne
not all of them but some.
- Bloated appearance
IBID
- Rapid weight gain
Not true, as a matter of fact many types are using for cutting (loosing weight while preserving muscle)
- Clotting disorders
Doctors prescription needed would help determine who is prone.
- Liver damage
Bull shit, this is only with orals. Injectibles bipass the liver.
- Premature heart attacks and strokes
Only with pre-existing conditions or prolonged cycles not allowing colesterol to go down.
- Elevated cholesterol levels
IBID
- Weakened tendons
only if overdone
Other
- Behavioral side-effects
This is totally not proven but speculated. Its hard to prove something when they make it illegal and don't allow doctors to study it.
- Psychological addiction
Psychological addiction also applies to any other form of training for a sport. How do you plan to make that illegal?
- Can affect growth in adolescents
Yes, which is why is should require a doctors prescription.
Anabolic Steroids

Apparently, the American Medical Association disagrees with you. Go figure...

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The cardiac toxicities of AAS, stimulants, and other performance-enhancing drugs are well known [1, 2] and include sudden death, thromboembolic phenomena, cardiomyopathy, and arrhythmias. These drugs have also been implicated in stroke, seizures, and such adverse psychiatric conditions as anxiety, mood changes, and autonomic hyperactivity [3]. “Steroid rage” has been cited as a cause of aberrant behavior in some adolescent males. AAS have unique adverse outcomes in adolescents because they accelerate bone epiphysis maturation, leading, ultimately, to reduced matured height. The overdevelopment of muscle strength can cause serious injury to ligaments, bone, and cartilage that have not experienced equivalent growth. And AAS may profoundly alter adolescent ovarian function, a change that can persist long after steroid use has ceased.

The recognition of life-threatening and serious nonfatal consequences of performance-enhancing drug use and treatments has led sports organizations and governments to cooperatively initiate an international campaign to eliminate doping by athletes.

Medical Ethics and Performance-Enhancing Drugs
by Carlos R. Hamilton, MD

[Steel 0]

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you are 100% european descendent cuban american?

What a way to not make up your mind.....What do you put down as nationality on official documents?

I wouldn't put it that way. I would say stating the facts as they are. Nationality I would put U.S.A. after all I am a U.S. citizen and NOT a citizen of anywhere else.
If I ask somebody living in the U.S., who is not an obvious a full blooded Cherokee, where they are from and get an answer like American. I might leave it at that, but I still will walk away thinking that this person is an idiot who does not know his heritage. When you really break it down, it typically starts to get complicated. I think my background is probably one of the more simple ones, as you can easily go back 8-10 generations down my family tree and still everybody was living in or was less than 2 generations from Spain.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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but I still will walk away thinking that this person is an idiot who does not know his heritage.

You aren't too quick to judge are you?

Ever considered that some people just don't care? They would rather live now as opposed to trying to "brag" about where their ancestors came from?

[billvon 3,072]

>If I ask somebody living in the U.S., who is not an obvious a
>full blooded Cherokee, where they are from and get an answer like
>American. I might leave it at that, but I still will walk away thinking
>that this person is an idiot who does not know his heritage.

I'm from New York City. (Astoria, Queens to be precise.) Which, I believe, is in America. My great-great grandparents are from Italy, Ireland, Austria, France, and Gemany. But that's where they are from, not where I'm from.

[Steel 0]

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>If I ask somebody living in the U.S., who is not an obvious a
>full blooded Cherokee, where they are from and get an answer like
>American. I might leave it at that, but I still will walk away thinking
>that this person is an idiot who does not know his heritage.

I'm from New York City. (Astoria, Queens to be precise.) Which, I believe, is in America. My great-great grandparents are from Italy, Ireland, Austria, France, and Gemany. But that's where they are from, not where I'm from.

If that is where they are from then that is where from where you descend. If your response was NYC then that is clearly heading in a different direction than, saying "oh I am American". But just as well if you were talking with somebody that you went to grammar School with in NYC and you both were still living there all this time and they asked you where you were from. Answering NYC would be trying to avoid the question.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 3,072]

>Answering NYC would be trying to avoid the question.

You're right. I admit it, I'm a Cuban-American.

[Steel 0]

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>Answering NYC would be trying to avoid the question.

You're right. I admit it, I'm a Cuban-American.

Well I guess when your wrong the next step, it to make a joke.
Oh I get it

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 3,072]

>Oh I get it

Excellent! GTAVercetti was right on target.

[tbrown 26]

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I'm actually thinking that it is.

At least it'll put people on an even playing ground.

I'm hoping they'll start with pot, 'shrooms & ecstacy.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !