Safire 3 vs. Pilot...

[CrashProne 4]

Do you have reasonable amounts of experience on both these canopies, preferably at or near the same wing loading? If so, could you please take a minute and give us your thoughts on how the two compare, and the pros and cons of each? Please include sizes and wing loading info for reference.

Thank you!!!

[CrashProne 4]

No input on this? Bueller???

[shadeland 5]

I have a lot of jumps on various Pilots. I've got 20 or so jumps on Safire 2s (loaded lightly, about 1.1) and about 5-10 jumps on a Safire 3 129, loaded about 1.4.

Safires and Pilots have had relatively week flares for me, until I jumped a Pilot 132 (about 1.4). It flares great.

However, that might be mostly brake line length. My pilot 150 (1.25 WL) I've managed to get a much better flare by gripping the lines just above the toggles.

I generally like the way the Pilot flies better than the Safire 3. My Pilot 132 felt more responsive than the Safire 3 129, despite being about the same WL. The flare on the SF3 129 sucked, but that's probably a brake line issue. Responsiveness could be a brake line length issue as well. The Safire 3 129 felt "boring". The Pilot 132 felt a bit sporty, though not as sporty as my Crossfires.

They're both pretty shallow trimmed, so they'll get you back from long spots.

That's my opinion.

[billvon 2,991]

At lower wing loadings go with the Pilot. Openings are consistently better.

At higher loadings I prefer Safires. Better performing, better flares at higher loadings (IMO.)

[CrashProne 4]

Thank you both for your input, that's exactly what I was looking for. My experience to date is mostly on Pilot (210-188-168-150) with a demo of a Zulu and Sabre 2.

I feel like the pilot leads the field of beginner to intermediate, flat trimmed canopies, certainly in terms of its responsiveness. The Sabre 2 felt sluggish and mushy by comparison, even though it is steeper trim and dives more. I preferred the Zulu to both however.


Argh, the hunt continues!!! (Although with a renewed sense of urgency, because I sold my main today!)

[Pat007 0]

I demo'd a Parachute Systems Volt 150 recently and found it more responsive and a much peppier flare than a Pilot. Sticking with my Big Air Sportz Lotus 150 for now, though.

My Dad used to ask me if someone jumped off a bridge would I do that too? No, but if they jumped out of an airplane, that's a different question...

[chips26 4]

shadeland

I have a lot of jumps on various Pilots. I've got 20 or so jumps on Safire 2s (loaded lightly, about 1.1) and about 5-10 jumps on a Safire 3 129, loaded about 1.4.

Safires and Pilots have had relatively week flares for me, until I jumped a Pilot 132 (about 1.4). It flares great.

However, that might be mostly brake line length. My pilot 150 (1.25 WL) I've managed to get a much better flare by gripping the lines just above the toggles.

I generally like the way the Pilot flies better than the Safire 3. My Pilot 132 felt more responsive than the Safire 3 129, despite being about the same WL. The flare on the SF3 129 sucked, but that's probably a brake line issue. Responsiveness could be a brake line length issue as well. The Safire 3 129 felt "boring". The Pilot 132 felt a bit sporty, though not as sporty as my Crossfires.

They're both pretty shallow trimmed, so they'll get you back from long spots.

That's my opinion.

I flew a Pilot 150 loaded at 1.1 and a S3 139 loaded at 1.2. The toggles on the safire 3 are definately alot more tame than the Pilot, but everything is miles ahead. Fronts, Rears, Harness, all more responsive. The brake lines on the S3s come longer than most, I shortened mine an inch (had to do the same on my XF3) and it definately helped with the bottom end of the flare as well as toggle inputs. Other than that, they are both relatively shallow flying canopies. Openings and flare was better on my S3 than my Pilot. Once you get used to the progressiveness of the inputs on the S3 youll never go back to the pilot.

[dwing 0]

I've flown both on wingloads between 1,3 and 1,4 In my opinion the safire 3 is way more responsive and turns are generally more aggressive, compared to the pilot.

The recovery arc is a little bit more longer on the safire 3.

In turns the safire 3 looses more height and gets pretty fast, in normal full flight the pilot is faster though.

The openings are comparably and on heading if packed well, while the pilot has a slightly lesser snivel and the safire 3 feeling more smooth.

I had a long spot with the pilot, and a really really long spot with my safire 3. No problem getting back to the dz with both of the canopies. Propably the safire 3 gets you further, but I cannot really compare it.

Both are pretty good canopies, but I prefer the openings and turn from the safire 3 and wouldn't want to go back.

[jcbfly 1]

I’ve owned 2 Pilots; a 132 and a 150, and I currently fly a NZA Safire 3 149. The short version of the story is that you can’t really go wrong with either of these canopies. In general, the similarities between them far outweigh the differences. I think your personal subjective opinion is probably the best way to choose between them - so fly them both before you buy.

OK, here’s some more detail. Keep in mind that this is all just my opinion. I’ve got around 1000 jumps on Pilots and about 50 on the Safire 3. The Pilot and Safire 3 are both good solid beginner/intermediate general purpose wings. Both parachutes get a flat glide, maneuver well, and are easy to land. My personal subjective opinion is that I like the way the Safire 3 flies better. The Safire 3 might not be quite as quick on the toggles as the Pilot, but it is much easier to harness turn. If you combine harness and toggle inputs, the Safire 3 is definitely the more maneuverable canopy. Front risers are very similar between the two canopies, but the Safire 3 has more range and a better feel to the rears. The Safire 3 has got a slightly longer recovery arc than the Pilot, but it’s still quick to recover. The landing flare is a little more powerful on the Safire 3, but not by a lot. Both canopies will get you back from a long spot. The one place where the Pilot definitely outshines the Safire 3 is in the openings. The Pilot has consistently soft, on heading openings and is even pretty forgiving if your packing is a little sloppy or your deployment body position and airspeed are a little off. The Safire has generally good openings too, but is less reliable in terms of heading and opening speed than the Pilot. Even with the occasional off heading and/or brisk opening, I still prefer the Safire 3 overall.

As far as the purchase experience, and the after sale customer service goes, both Aerodyne and NZA have been easy to work with.

[Suha 8]

I had the chance to demo-jump the Safire 3 169 for about 15 jumps.
I have around 500 jumps on a Pilot, the last 100 on a Pilot 168 with a 1.3 wingload.

I also think both are pretty similar regarding how they fly. I did not feel a difference in their trim or speed.

On the Safire 3 I felt less front riser pressure, slightly less pressure on rear-risers, more pressure on the toggles, slightly more responsiveness on harness input.

The openings on the Safire 3 are more staged, it sits you up fast but then inflates slowly, cell by cell. I almost had no on-heading opening and it sometimes turned me completely during the opening without inducing line-twists. I don't know what was causing this, but my Pilot is more reliably on-heading.

The recovery arc is slightly longer on the Safire 3 but still not very long.

I did not feel that much difference regarding the flare. With my long arms and full arm extension I could get a good flare out of it.

Overall I also think you can not go wrong with either of them...

[anomie168 16]

What did you end up doing ? I jump a Zulu and love it, so it's funny to see you liked it over the Saf3/Pilot.