A question for my Jewish friends?

[Dolph 0]

Can you have Jewish friends and still be a good Muslim, Darius? At least as things stand now, it could be argued that it is your religious duty to fight them. Unless you want to be a Kufr.

[60:1] O you who believe, you shall not befriend My enemies and your enemies, extending love and friendship to them, even though they have disbelieved in the truth that has come to you. They persecute the messenger, and you, just because you believe in GOD, your Lord. If you mobilize to struggle in My cause, seeking My blessings, how can you secretly love them? I am fully aware of everything you conceal, and everything you declare. Those among you who do this have indeed strayed off the right path.
[al-Mumtahanah 60:1]

More importantly:
[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

Or [Surat Al-Maidah 5:51].

There'll be resistance from Jews, secularists and others. To most non-Muslims, it is unacceptable to live under Muslim Shari'a law or Muslim dominance. Most will not agree to live under Muslim rule in their own countries and will similarily reject to pay Jizyah. I for one will fight for my freedoms - and such a struggle will be deemed "against the religion of Islam" by Muslim religious authorities.

To which you're compelled by Islam to respond.

“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”
[al-Tawbah 9:29].

Which contradicts [Surat Al-Kafirun 109:6] and Surat [Al-Baqarah 2:256]. Pick and choose, perhaps?

Which is the essence of my tirade (needed the background info) - can you truly befriend the Jews as a Muslim - or any unbeliever and still be a good Muslim? Many Muslims say "yes" and pick passages from the Qu'ran that argues the point. Others reject it fully, and support it with other passages.

And this is the struggle within Islam that has little to do with the Western world. Who wins this fight will have great importance as to how the future will unfold.

[TheAnvil 0]

In light of the current conflict, why should they? Hezbollah chose to embed themselves among civilians and unfortunately the civilians they hide behind are being killed. Very sad and very tragic. Doing nothing is not an option for Israel. If Hezbollah wants peace it need merely return the hostage soldiers and lay down its arms. Not gonna happen - they don't want peace and don't care about the Lebanese populace.

Unsure as to the teachings of Judaism, but you might want to state why you think Jewish people should condemn Israel's actions.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
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[debonair 0]

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If Hezbollah wants peace it need merely return the hostage soldiers and lay down its arms. Not gonna happen - they don't want peace and don't care about the Lebanese populace.

I agree that it is not likely to happen. Also, I'm doubtful that the Israeli soldiers taken in the cross-border raid are even still alive.

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[Guest]

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I you see the majority of the Muslims step forward to denounce the ones who have committed murder.

As they did in 9-11.

Oh, and they signify that by dancing in the streets. Thanks for enlightening us.

Edit to remove loads of politically incorrect anti-muslim vitriol and bile

Please re-read Wafa Sultan:

"What we see unfolding on the international scene is not a clash of religions or civilizations. It is a clash of two contradicting opposites, it is a clash of eras, between a mentality that belongs in the Middle Ages and that which belongs in the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, chaos and rationality, a conflict between freedom and oppression, democracy and dictatorship, human rights on the one hand and the violation of these rights on the other, between those who treat women like animals and those who treat them like human beings."

I'm just sick to death of Islamic shit. It's nothing but a death cult; it's all it's ever been and it's all it will ever be.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[miked10270 0]

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I hesitated in posting this, Darius, as you've made it plain I am not considered a friend of yours. However, I thought I'd post anyway, as it might be elucidating.

Ciels-
Michele

Edited to add: Here is an interesting paper on the Judaic perspective on peace, war, and violence...

GOOD answer on the Jewish Faith & Violence. I must admit I didn't find it myself.

As to whether we're friends here... The things we disagree with surely shouldn't affect that. Let's face it; We certainly enjoy each others' company and dialogue. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.
Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Steel 0]

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Just about every religion has tracts that can be taken in support violence or against it. In spite of the insinuations of the fellow that started this thread, there's plenty of material in the Koran and in the New Testament that could incite violence. As well as the Torah.
None of it means anything until it is interpreted by a human.

I will agree when interpreting people come up with some theories that seem way out in left field.

However, when you read the texts as they are stated, the Koran has parts which are obviously pretty vicious. I have never read any of the Torah so I don't know what it states specifically. But I understand the jews read the Old testament, which has some pretty vicious references in it as well.
Christianity on the other hand if often suggested to be no different in this aspect. The funny thing is that everytime, I have heard/read a bible quote that is being used to prove violence in Christianity, its was coming from the Old testament.

Since you have stated in your post that there is some violence supported in the New Testament, I welcome you to educate us by quoting some of it.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Darius11 12]

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An exceedingly simplified overview of the Talmudic teachings, from Rabbi Shraga Simmons, can be found here: [ur; http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_warviolence.htm]Talmudic teaching on war, peace, violence

For more reading from Rabbi Simmons, here's a link to some of the Jewish teachings. ASk Rabbi Simmons

I hesitated in posting this, Darius, as you've made it plain I am not considered a friend of yours. However, I thought I'd post anyway, as it might be elucidating.

Ciels-
Michele

Edited to add: Here is an interesting paper on the Judaic perspective on peace, war, and violence. In part:
"In the Jewish tradition, self defense is a moral obligation. The Torah allows people to defend their property from a thief even if this will cause the conflict to escalate into a physical battle. If there is reason to assume that the thief will use lethal force to seize the property, the owner may use physical force, and even kill the thief if necessary to protect himself (Exodus 22:1, Sanhedrin 72a). There are two rationales for allowing self defense. The first is practical; without the ability to use lethal force to stop the actions of aggressors, anarchy would reign (Chinnuch 600). The second rationale challenges the moral assumptions of nonviolence. It asserts that it is impossible to equate the lives of the aggressor and the victim; we have as a rule "that God's quest is the interests of the hunted" (Ecclesiastes 3:15). The life of the aggressor and the victim are not of equal value; if only one will survive, it is our obligation to make certain that it is the innocent person, the victim, who will survive (Cf. Rashi to Exodus 22:1).

For this reason, the Jewish tradition considers pacifism in the face of aggression to be immoral. Refusing to fight evil is to be party to evil. As Michael Kelly (Washington Post September 26, 2001) has pointed out:

"No honest person can pretend that the groups that attacked America will, if let alone, not attack again. Nor can any honest person say that this attack is not at least reasonably likely to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people. To not fight in this instance is to let the attackers live to attack and murder again; to be a pacifist in this instance is to accept and, in practice, support this outcome."
This is essentially the Jewish point of view; if you don't help the victim, you are an ally of the aggressor. If a person refuses to defend himself, he allows evil to triumph. "

Darius, I can't believe you couldn't find this on your own. It's not hidden...

Ciels-
Michele

Thank you Michele.


That’s what I was looking for. I could read a bunch of things but finding out what an actual Jewish person believes there religion says in regards to conflict was what I was looking for. I am not surprised that it is very similar to what the Muslims believe.

As for me not liking you or not thinking of you as a friend.

If I recall correctly you had mentioned how you have lost respect for me and were not going to read any of my posts. We disagreed on how women are perceived by the way they are dressed in the Middle Eastern culture.

I do not agree with many of your views and opinions. I view some of your views as extreme, and I am sure the same could be said about me. I hope we can agree to disagree with out any hard feelings

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[miked10270 0]

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Since you have stated in your post that there is some violence supported in the New Testament, I welcome you to educate us by quoting some of it.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

First hit off Google.

Mike.

Edited: To make sure no-one feels left out:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/cr/long.html

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[outrager 6]

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I'm just sick to death of Islamic shit. It's nothing but a death cult; it's all it's ever been and it's all it will ever be.

Very curious if you felt that way in Kosovo...

bsbd!

Yuri.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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and Iranians (Though they are not muslim they are persian)

I didn't realize Persians could not be muslim.....

[Guest]

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I'm just sick to death of Islamic shit. It's nothing but a death cult; it's all it's ever been and it's all it will ever be.

Very curious if you felt that way in Kosovo...

bsbd!

Yuri.

Around here, the moslems are fairly civilized. There are still some strong Eastern influences, but the moslems that I've talked to don't even think of themselves as moslems - it just happens to be on their birth certificate.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[miked10270 0]

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Around here, the moslems are fairly civilized...

Is that because they're no longer being (or feeling) persecuted now? They're now more "comfortable" and see things getting better?

It's people who find themselve in extreme situations who embrace extremism. The best, and probably only, counter to extremism and the "terrorism" it generates is people who feel safe & comfortable.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Nightingale 0]

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???? I seem to remember Palastinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, and Iranians (Though they are not muslim they are persian) Dancing in the Fucking streets.
To this day there are MANY muslim groups who still say the US got what it deserved.

Looking at this, I'm reminded of a Jeff Foxworthy quote: "And you know, the thing is, Southerners are as smart as anybody in this country. Our only problem is we just can't keep the most ignorant among us off the television. That's the truth. I mean, every time we have a disaster, they never film a doctor or a lawyer. They always get that woman in the mu-mu and the sponge rollers. 'It was pandelerium. I thought we'd be killed or even worse. I looked out the window to see the Jenkins' house go right over our roof. All I could think was Caroline still has my caserole dish.'"

What you see on television is usually a slice of the most sensational stuff out there, and isn't representative of the population as a whole. There are extreme muslims. There are extreme christians. There are extreme jews. If there's a religion, there are people who take it to the extreme. What these people have in common is that they are extremist. I don't believe that religion creates extremists, but I believe that often, extremists find an outlet in religion, because religion offers strict guidelines that the extremist can enforce, and often, they pick and choose which ones. Religion isn't the problem. The people who follow extremists and fanatics are the problem.

[Amazon 7]

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There are extreme muslims. There are extreme christians. There are extreme jews. If there's a religion, there are people who take it to the extreme. What these people have in common is that they are extremist. I don't believe that religion creates extremists, but I believe that often, extremists find an outlet in religion, because religion offers strict guidelines that the extremist can enforce, and often, they pick and choose which ones. Religion isn't the problem. The people who follow extremists and fanatics are the problem.

All too true....BUT...... I have not seen Jerry Falwells or Pat Robertsons followers getting on buses in Muslim neighborhoods and blowing up the busses.... And I have yet to see a Hasidic Jew enter a cafe in some of the NJ Burbs where many Middle Easteners have immegrated to and leveled the place with a bomb.

[nathaniel 0]

There've been several random shooting events over the last 15 years in Israel & surrounding territories where an extremist Jew was the perpetrator. Among settlers in particular IIRC.

And then there was that whole Yitzhak Rabin thing...doesn't really make a difference to me whether they use bombs or bullets, effect is the same when they kill people.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Nightingale 0]

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There are extreme muslims. There are extreme christians. There are extreme jews. If there's a religion, there are people who take it to the extreme. What these people have in common is that they are extremist. I don't believe that religion creates extremists, but I believe that often, extremists find an outlet in religion, because religion offers strict guidelines that the extremist can enforce, and often, they pick and choose which ones. Religion isn't the problem. The people who follow extremists and fanatics are the problem.

All too true....BUT...... I have not seen Jerry Falwells or Pat Robertsons followers getting on buses in Muslim neighborhoods and blowing up the busses.... And I have yet to see a Hasidic Jew enter a cafe in some of the NJ Burbs where many Middle Easteners have immegrated to and leveled the place with a bomb.

I haven't heard of christians blowing up busses...but there have been quite a few reports of blowing up doctor's offices.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Or buildings...

[racer42 0]

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and Iranians (Though they are not muslim they are persian)

I didn't realize Persians could not be muslim.....

Iranians are not ethnic Arabs. It is possible to find people of both ethnicities, both Arabic and Iranian, who are not Muslims.

I do believe the majority of Muslims are not ethnic Arabs, i.e. people from the Arabian Penninsula, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq.

Also, there is a fairly large contingent of Christians and Druze living in the region in question. There was for centuries a substantial Jewish community in Iraq and Iran and elswhere in the Muslim world.

Just sort of an FYI

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[cumplidor 0]

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I have not seen anything like that from the Jewish community? What I hear and see on the radio is 100% support for Israel.

If our government were controlled by interests whose loyalties lie with Israel then that would explain why we would go along with whatever they do. (AIPAC, PNAC, etc)

If the places where we received most of our information about the goings on in the world, were largely controlled by interests whose loyalties lie with Israel, then that would explain why we don't see much of that on NBC, CBS, Newspapers or Magazines. (google 'Jewish media ownership' ) http://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+media+ownership&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official


http://jewsagainstzionism.com/
This site seems to have good information about the Jews who do not support Israel and their behaviours.

[hairyjuan 0]

christianity major precept is supposed to be do unto others as you would have done unto you. guess what all christians clapping their are going to have done to them for all the blood they have shed since their phony saviour allegedly spoke luke 19:27: Bring all unbelievers before me and slay them before me.


Am I a Good Person---NO--I AM AN EXCEPTIONAL MAN

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Kinaa 0]

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???? I seem to remember Palastinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, and Iranians (Though they are not muslim they are persian) Dancing in the Fucking streets.
To this day there are MANY muslim groups who still say the US got what it deserved.

Anyone maybe have a TV grab of that?
It would be fun to see 1.5 billion people dancing in the streets.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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???? I seem to remember Palastinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, and Iranians (Though they are not muslim they are persian) Dancing in the Fucking streets.
To this day there are MANY muslim groups who still say the US got what it deserved.

Anyone maybe have a TV grab of that?
It would be fun to see 1.5 billion people dancing in the streets.

I saw the people celebrasting like they won the NBA championship, I was watching Al Jazeera with a Jordanian friend later in the day, he was really disguted that they were celebrating,

no it wasn't 1.5 billion but there were quite a few.

[udder 0]

If you are referring to the current conflict, my view is "GO ISRAEL." Don't Muslims understand Irael will always exist? It's technologies, military and education system are light years ahead of anything else in the middle east. Must be because Allah favours the Israeli's?

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[Erroll 80]

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Must be because Allah favours the Israeli's?

I know GWB has connections, but calling him Allah is a bit much, don't you think?

[udder 0]

Holy shit! I figured it out. GWB is ALLAH!

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E