immigration for dummies

[masterrig 1]

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>Honestly I don't see how going 5-10 mph over the speed limit can compare to leaving milk cartons . . .

A milk carton won't result in this:

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D.W.H.U.A. will!!!


Chuck

[PLFXpert 0]

Someone help me; I'm actually posting in SC today.

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The US has always been a country of immigrants. In a way it's a selection process - the people who are willing to drop everything and come to the US are the ones who AREN'T content to sit around and do nothing. I think we should simultaneously make it a lot easier for people to come in legally and a lot harder for them to make it in illegally. Legal immigration made this country what it is, and it is what will shape our future as well.

In a nutshell, this represents my thoughts exactly. But rather than just repost, I'll add a few additional thoughts of my own:

I often feel very lucky and fortunate to have been born in the U.S. Had I been born in another country, it's possible, perhaps even probable I'd want to come here, too. I don't forget that our forefathers were immigrants. Had it not been for them I wouldn't have had the luxury of being born in this great nation. The U.S. has always been a melting pot and that has served us very well.

Of course, I have come across first-hand, all too many times, construction companies full of illegal employees. They are not paying taxes. They are not paying worker's comp. And they are able to bid the job for less $$$ than my hunny, an American, a contractor and CEO of his business.

And yet Billy's two best employees are from Columbia and Venezuela and are not citizens, nor do they wish to be.

The former I have issues with. The latter I do not.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[masterrig 1]

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Someone help me; I'm actually posting in SC today.

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The US has always been a country of immigrants. In a way it's a selection process - the people who are willing to drop everything and come to the US are the ones who AREN'T content to sit around and do nothing. I think we should simultaneously make it a lot easier for people to come in legally and a lot harder for them to make it in illegally. Legal immigration made this country what it is, and it is what will shape our future as well.

In a nutshell, this represents my thoughts exactly. But rather than just repost, I'll add a few additional thoughts of my own:

I often feel very lucky and fortunate to have been born in the U.S. Had I been born in another country, it's possible, perhaps even probable I'd want to come here, too. I don't forget that our forefathers were immigrants. Had it not been for them I wouldn't have had the luxury of being born in this great nation. The U.S. has always been a melting pot and that has served us very well.

Of course, I have come across first-hand, all too many times, construction companies full of illegal employees. They are not paying taxes. They are not paying worker's comp. And they are able to bid the job for less $$$ than my hunny, an American, a contractor and CEO of his business.

And yet Billy's two best employees are from Columbia and Venezuela and are not citizens, nor do they wish to be.

The former I have issues with. The latter I do not.

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Here's your hunny, trying to make a living as a business owner and is having difficulties bidding jobs because other companies working illegals can under-bid him. Some folks would say that that is just 'Free Enterprise'. To me, that's a big bunch of BS! Your hunny, is a U.S. citizen, natural born and is being cut-back on his ability to work because of illegals. As I said before, I blame the big business lobbyists buying-off the politicians. Those folks out there who are not directly effected by illegal immigration seem un-able to see what those of us who live among them see. I think, since the illegals had their chance to gather and march... those of us who don't want the illegals here, should get out there and voice our opinion! After all, we have rights too... not just them.


Chuck

[BRIDGEWOOD 0]

That picture means nothing without the story behind it. I'm willing to bet that "speed" didn't cause that accident. I'm sure the person behind the wheel had nothing to do with it.

[billvon 3,049]

> I'm willing to bet that "speed" didn't cause that accident.

I'll bet you $100 that speed had more to do with it than milk cartons did.

[Nightingale 0]

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Here's your hunny, trying to make a living as a business owner and is having difficulties bidding jobs because other companies working illegals can under-bid him. Some folks would say that that is just 'Free Enterprise'. To me, that's a big bunch of BS! Your hunny, is a U.S. citizen, natural born and is being cut-back on his ability to work because of illegals. ...

This is a prime example of why abolishing minimum wage laws would benefit Americans. If that guy's not paying a set wage, he can pay his employees a wage that allows him to be competitive rather than consistently underbid by other companies.

[masterrig 1]

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Here's your hunny, trying to make a living as a business owner and is having difficulties bidding jobs because other companies working illegals can under-bid him. Some folks would say that that is just 'Free Enterprise'. To me, that's a big bunch of BS! Your hunny, is a U.S. citizen, natural born and is being cut-back on his ability to work because of illegals. ...

This is a prime example of why abolishing minimum wage laws would benefit Americans. If that guy's not paying a set wage, he can pay his employees a wage that allows him to be competitive rather than consistently underbid by other companies.

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You make a very good point and had never really considered 'minnimum wage' in the equation. I think, at one time in our history, minnimum wage may've served a purpose. In thinking about it, I tend to agree with you.
I believe, it is Illinois, where they are trying to get Wal-Mart and other big businesses to pay their employees more than minnimum wage. Their reasoning being, if, I have this right, that a 'bread-winner' cannot support his/her family on minnimum wage. Which is danged true.


Chuck

[Nightingale 0]

The wal-mart argument is an interesting one, but economically flawed.

Our society is built on a capitalist structure, which makes the concept of a "living wage" impossible.

When you try to pay the people making the lowest salary more money, so they can pay their rent, buy their food, etc..., all you do is make everything cost more. If McDonalds has to pay their employees $15 instead of $7, they'll have to raise prices to balance their budget. Not only that, but the people who are picking the potatoes and making the burger buns and raising the cattle will be paid more, making those products cost more. Employers are going to pass on the increase in cost to their customers, and you'll find yourself paying $9 for a big mac. Now, because everything's become more expensive because our most basic labor costs more, rents start going up (landlords have to eat and shop also), and so you end up in a situation which is exactly the same as where you started. The low wage earners can't afford to buy food or pay rent, because by increasing the supply of money, you've increased the demand for goods, and things have equalized right back to where they were, except your dollar is now worth about half what it was before.

[masterrig 1]

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The wal-mart argument is an interesting one, but economically flawed.

Our society is built on a capitalist structure, which makes the concept of a "living wage" impossible.

When you try to pay the people making the lowest salary more money, so they can pay their rent, buy their food, etc..., all you do is make everything cost more. If McDonalds has to pay their employees $15 instead of $7, they'll have to raise prices to balance their budget. Not only that, but the people who are picking the potatoes and making the burger buns and raising the cattle will be paid more, making those products cost more. Employers are going to pass on the increase in cost to their customers, and you'll find yourself paying $9 for a big mac. Now, because everything's become more expensive because our most basic labor costs more, rents start going up (landlords have to eat and shop also), and so you end up in a situation which is exactly the same as where you started. The low wage earners can't afford to buy food or pay rent, because by increasing the supply of money, you've increased the demand for goods, and things have equalized right back to where they were, except your dollar is now worth about half what it was before.

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So, what you are saying is get rid of minnimum wage and pay people more and prices of everything goes up. doesn't this dis-agree with your argument to get rid of minnimum wage? Noone is going to work for less! The dollar is much less than what it was 40 - 50 yrs. ago, too. I remember 25-cent a gallon gas. 15-cents for a loaf of bread. I do believe, prices go up the dollar isn't going to go as far.


Chuck

[Nightingale 0]

No. I'm not saying get rid of the minimum wage and pay people more. That'd be silly. I'm saying get rid of the minimum wage and let employers pay employees what they think the job is worth.

If farmers have to pay $7 an hour to strawberry pickers, our fruit would cost $20 a basket. However, if we let farmers pay legal workers what they feel the job is worth (probably somewhere aroudn $2 or $3 per hour), our strawberry costs will go down, along with the cost of all of our basic services, reducing inflation and preventing further inflation. The people on the bottom wage level won't be any worse off, because even though they're getting paid less, they're more likely to be able to find employment in the first place because jobs won't need to go to illegal workers willing to be paid under the table. Wage-influenced inflation will stop, and the poor will do what they've always done: pool their financial resources for more purchasing power.

Removing the minimum wage gives employers the ability to negotiate with employees over what their pay will be. Employers and employees will have equal power, because without minimum wage, employers can say "I'll pay this much" and an employee can say "no thanks...the guy down the road is offering 50 cents more." Then, the first employer can either raise the wage, or let the guy move on, hiring the next person who is willing to work for what he is willing to pay. Employers need workers, and workers naturally migrate to the best environment they can get. Workers need work, and will take on a job that pays a wage they're willing to work for.

[masterrig 1]

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No. I'm not saying get rid of the minimum wage and pay people more. That'd be silly. I'm saying get rid of the minimum wage and let employers pay employees what they think the job is worth.

If farmers have to pay $7 an hour to strawberry pickers, our fruit would cost $20 a basket. However, if we let farmers pay legal workers what they feel the job is worth (probably somewhere aroudn $2 or $3 per hour), our strawberry costs will go down, along with the cost of all of our basic services, reducing inflation and preventing further inflation. The people on the bottom wage level won't be any worse off, because even though they're getting paid less, they're more likely to be able to find employment in the first place because jobs won't need to go to illegal workers willing to be paid under the table. Wage-influenced inflation will stop, and the poor will do what they've always done: pool their financial resources for more purchasing power.

Removing the minimum wage gives employers the ability to negotiate with employees over what their pay will be. Employers and employees will have equal power, because without minimum wage, employers can say "I'll pay this much" and an employee can say "no thanks...the guy down the road is offering 50 cents more." Then, the first employer can either raise the wage, or let the guy move on, hiring the next person who is willing to work for what he is willing to pay. Employers need workers, and workers naturally migrate to the best environment they can get. Workers need work, and will take on a job that pays a wage they're willing to work for.

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Thank you. I gotcha' now! I'm curious too, since as you mentioned are say... $20.00 a flat. The employer can get workers for less than minnimum wage and he's already gotten 'used' to that $20.00 a flat... do you really think, he'd drop his prices?


Chuck

[Nightingale 0]

He wouldn't drop his prices now, because farms are already existing on under the table labor. Prices just wouldn't go up, and more legal workers could be hired, because you've eliminated the need for under the table.

If they started paying the workers minimum wage, we'd be paying $20 a BASKET for strawberries, where we're now paying about $20 a flat (6 or 8 baskets)

[masterrig 1]

O.K. I see your point.


Chuck

[rickjump1 0]

After removing the minimum wage, the 11 million illegals go home. Right? There goes the easily manipulated voting bloc for the senate and the house. I guess they will have to go to work too.

What do you mean by the poor pooling their financial resources for more purchasing power? I know some legal immigrants share housing until they get ahead. Is this what you have in mind?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Nightingale 0]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Many immigrants pool housing and transportation resources. There's no reason why that trend won't continue.

After removing the minimum wage, we give business owners six months, and then start fining heavily for hiring undocumented workers. There's no reason to hire them anymore, because now, legal people can do the work. At that time, we give business owners the option of, if they haven't received enough qualified legal applicants, to go to another country and recruit. At that time, they can conduct interviews across the border, and anyone they wish to bring back with them must be fingerprinted and issued a government ID. Then, they may remain here as long as they are in the employ of that individual. They should have immediate access to citizenship procedures if desired. If they choose not to become a citizen, they are subject to deportation when they become unemployed.

[billvon 3,049]

>. . . .and issued a government ID.

I don't understand how this would work.

Cop: Hey, you look like an immigrant! Let's see your ID.
Guy: I a US citizen, Mr. Federale!
Cop: OK, then. Never mind.

The problem with "immigrant ID's" is that unless you also have a national ID, you can simply claim not to need one - and you're back to the same problem you have now, identifying citizenship.

[PLFXpert 0]

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The problem with "immigrant ID's" is that unless you also have a national ID, you can simply claim not to need one - and you're back to the same problem you have now, identifying citizenship.

Exactly.

Today, one can take their ITIN and apply for [edit] currently accepted national forms of ID to be used for employment eligability, which is ideally what one would do. But most do not and work anyways.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[billvon 3,049]

>One can take their immigrant ID and apply for a National ID . .. .

Do you have a National ID identifying you as a citizen?

[PLFXpert 0]

Not technically a "national ID" but I have a SSN

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

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>. . . .and issued a government ID.

I don't understand how this would work.

Cop: Hey, you look like an immigrant! Let's see your ID.
Guy: I a US citizen, Mr. Federale!
Cop: OK, then. Never mind.

The problem with "immigrant ID's" is that unless you also have a national ID, you can simply claim not to need one - and you're back to the same problem you have now, identifying citizenship.

An immigrant ID would be required to work. Employers would be required to check them, and have copies of them for their own records. They'd function in the same way social security cards do for citizens, except they should probably include a photo and fingerprint.

[PLFXpert 0]

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One can take their immigrant ID and apply for a National ID . ..

I've edited for clarification.
I was giving an example of something common that goes on today. Of course, next time I'll refrain from responding in SC while I'm also on the phone.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[juanesky 0]

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>One can take their immigrant ID and apply for a National ID . .. .

Do you have a National ID identifying you as a citizen?

Yes, it's called a passport...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[billvon 3,049]

>Yes, it's called a passport. . . .

Hmm.

Cop: Hey there, Mr. Auto Mechanic! Do you work here? Can I see your passport?

Mechanic: What? I never got a passport.

Cop: Aha! Come with me to the INS, you illegal alien you!

[billvon 3,049]

> Not technically a "national ID" but I have a SSN.

So do many illegal aliens. They can get a "nonresident tax number" for the purposes of paying taxes (and more importantly getting refunds.)

The problem is that SS cards are easy to forge. If you really want the system to work, that SS card has to have the same level of protection (i.e. picture, fingerprint, whatever) that the immigrant ID card does. And since that inconveniences voters, that will never happen.

[PLFXpert 0]

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So do many illegal aliens. They can get a "nonresident tax number" for the purposes of paying taxes (and more importantly getting refunds.)

I'm not familiar with this. The only # I'm familiar with is the ITIN which means they are legal to buy & sell here (hence needing to file a tax return & get a refund) but not legal to work.

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The problem is that SS cards are easy to forge.

Agreed 100%. Of course, it is getting a lot easier to confirm when one has been stolen.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.