Will you STFU now?

[Amazon 7]

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My only hatred is towards ignorance, and People who are inconsiderate of others.

I would think a Palestinian suicide bomber is pretty ignorant.... and definitely inconsiderate of others.

[Darius11 12]

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If I can improve your land or home and make it better do I get to kick you out or move you to the shity part of your house like the basement and you would be ok with that?

They do that all the time in your part of the country... they will condemn you home.. and build what they want... for the better use of all....OR if
they can get more tax money.

Really do you know of anyone in Tehran that had there home taken away from them??? I am guessing by my part of the country you mean Tehran where I grew up right?

Since you know everything or pretend to know everything you tell me.


Is there any Pepto-Bismol for people’s fingers?
Maybe that would stop all the bull shit that gets posted.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

Man... that chip on your shoulder must be really bugging the shit out of your back.....



No I was referring to RI CN..... recent court cases come to mind.

Look up information on eminent domain....

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/natres/emindomain.htm

And if you are feeling undereducated.. THAT can be remedied by doing some further studying.... learning is a life long process. Try it.

[billvon 2,998]

>My proposal is to mobilize US Air Force and Navy as well as a
>few satellites to orbit Israel, Gaza, Lebanon and the West Bank. Any
> and all Arab and Israeli military vehicles need to return to return to
> their bases inside of their internationally legally recognized borders.
> Any movement of those vehicles/aircraft and they will be
> immediately targeted and destroyed.

I have a much better idea (similar to your last one.)

How about we stop screwing around in the Middle East. Pull our military out of the area. Stop giving Israel billions in aid. Let them decide how to handle their affairs.

And if they realize that they're going to lose all that military hardware we're selling them? They might decide that a separate peace is a better option than pre-emptive war. Or they might not; completely up to them. It's not our war.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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And if they realize that they're going to lose all that military hardware we're selling them? They might decide that a separate peace is a better option than pre-emptive war. Or they might not; completely up to them. It's not our war.

The jews in the US would never go for that.

[lawrocket 3]

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You are normally a rational guy but I don’t know where you’r coming from.

As I explained in the post, "I see your side. Do you see mine?"

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So your telling me that if your land that you lived on and home was taken and given away you would bake the people who took the land a pie? Come on man be honest? You know that’s full of shit.

True. But the Jews bought the land they were on. 1948 was unfortunate - I don't argue with that. I would be pretty pissed off if California was partitioned into Mexico. As I said, I understand your side. I understand Israel's side, too.

I understand that the Jews were resented back n the late 1800's and early 1900's when it dawned on the Palestinians figured out that all those immigrants were turning their neighborhood into a Jewish hood. Think of California and Prop. 187, etc. There's always a backlash against immigrants everywhere. I don't like it, but it's there. Why would Palestinians be any different?

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As for what is happening in the Middle East in regards to Israelis. IMHO I believe the reason the Jews are hated is not because they are Jewish but because the one killing and taking the Palestinians homes happen to be Jewish.

But I provided evidence to you that the Jews there were hated 50 years before Israel was even created. That the Jews were hated when they were buying the land (not taking it). That the Jews were hated when they weren't killing anybody.

That may be the point that you aren't getting. It's right there and fairly plain to see - 1948 was a big moment, but 1948 did not start the fire. That fire was blazing already, and it merely added more fuel to it. Sadly, as time goes on, both sides are stoking it more.

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Simple you don’t want people to hate you don’t kill their children,

The Muslims hate the Jews because they are killing their children. Is it okay for us to hate the Muslims because they are killing our children (a few thousand about five years ago)? The Iraqis hate us because we are killing their children. The Shiites and Sunnis because they are killing each other's children.

Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate... Which side has the moral highground. None of them, Darius. Yours sure as hell doesn't. Neither does mine.

The blame game started this. It keeps it going. In 1982, Israel was wrong. There's plenty of blame and hate to go around on both sides. But with Israel's recent HUGE and UNPOPULAR concessions to demands of the Palestinians, it seems that though Israel has been attempting to right it.

Israel's attempts to move forward have, in a figurative and literal sense, blown up in Israel's face because of too many others only looking back. I recall it being said that if Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip/West Bank, that things would be good. It didn't work out like that.

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don’t steel their land.

I'll reiterate - the Palestinians hated the Jews when the Jews bought it.

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As to historical claim of that land we can discuss that till we are both blue.

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If the Israelis were from another planet and had blue skin the Palestinians would hate any one from the planet who had blue skin.

First, I don't think I'd want either of us to turn blue. Secondly, if we did discuss it until we turned blue and the Palestinians killed our families because I had blue skin, wouldn't you think that your family and mine would have a legitimate gripe with the Palestinians?

By the way - isn't hating everyone because of the color of their skin racism? Do you think I'm right to hate street racers for killing my friend? SHould I kill them all?

Also, is the comment about "historical claim" a reflection of your belief that both sides might have an historical claim to this land? If so, whatever moral high ground there is is muddied.

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What really doesn’t make since to me is why didn’t the Israelis get a peace of Germany or some place in Europe?

Good question. Ask the world, instead of taking it out on the Jews. The UN did it.

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However it does not change the facts that the people who were moved from that and to make room for the Israelis were the Palestinians.

They didn't have to move. They chose to. As an aside, I understand why they felt they had to.

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The most important point is this:

Israelis action is the cause of Israeli hate.

No it isn't. War was declared on them and fought against them the day they were chartered. Israel hadn't time to do anything before they were attacked.

Looking at it from your perspective, do you think Israel, attacked from day one, has reason to hate?

Again, BOTH sides have reasons to hate.

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Here is how biase the peoples view is

Yours, too.

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About 3 weeks before this whole thing there was an explosion on a beach that killed Inocent Arabs. The Israeli investigation showed it was a mine and not a canon shell from their war ships. However independent investigation showed the Israelis were lying and a canon shell caused the explosion.

Israel was wrong for doing that. Next point?

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If Palestine were capable would you have supported them if they destroyed all of Israelis infrastructure?

No. Would you have supported it? Answer this one - it's a pretty important question to see where you are coming from. I ask this because I believe what's right is right if nobody does it or no matter who does it, and what's wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it or even if everybdy's doing it.

Do you share this belief?

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Is an Israeli life worth more then an Arab one?

No. What do suicide bombers think about that question?

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Unfortunately it seems that’s the way at least to the US and the west.

No, to parts of the US and West. Stop lumping everybody together in this.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[beowulf 1]

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and the cycle continues. So it will never end due to people just like you.

LOL

You crack me up. So the people who started the problem are fine the people fighting back for there land are the cause of the problem??????

I want some of what you’re smoking.

You totally missed my point entirely.

[Dolph 0]

Check this out dude, and ask yourself whether the Jews were killing and taking Palestinian homes:

70CE to 1200CE

1201CE to 1800CE

1801CE to 1946CE

I guess the Palestinian issue isn't why they've been hated. It may be used to fuel long standing anti-semitism and further the agenda of the utter destruction of Israel - but it for sure ain't the root cause. You gotta think bigger Darius - see beyond the immediate past.

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Simple you don’t want people to hate you don’t kill their children, don’t steel their land.

A very good suggestion. You're smart enough to realise this is a two way street. For what it's worth, that ain't easy to agree with even if logic says it's the best thing.

Denmark and Sweden have been at war with each other a great many times. Since the 1400's, it's been one war after another. Danes killing Swedes, taking Swedish territory. Swedes killing Danes, taking Danish land. Monuments, fortresses etc. of the troubled past can be seen in both countries

At some point in time, some dudes said "this is pretty dumb". Society evolved and an uneasy peace spread. Now, we're like siblings, taking jabs at each other bit but we're tight and there for each other if the crap hits the fan. So, even in two rather homogenous populations, war was the standard for several hundred years. With Israel and the Arab/Persian states, it's that more difficult.

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What really doesn’t make since to me is why didn’t the Israelis get a peace of Germany or some place in Europe? There were no death camps in Palestine? Why did they get the burden of giving up there land?

Basically, because they were weak militarily, the land was disputed and under control of a former empire that wanted to lose the troublesome colonies. Instead of dividing up an already existing nationstate, it's much easier diplomatically to take some colonial land and arbitrarily split it up to accomodate two groups - Palestinians and Israelis. The area was disputed in many ways and the Palestinians didn't have a strong claim to a nationstate. The British wanted to get rid of the last of their once great Empire, having enough to do in their own back yard after WWII.

Of course the Palestinians and Arabs hated the two state solution, so they tried to fix it by wiping out the Israeli state. And got beaten, not only once, but three times in a row.

Having experienced 6 million dead by Hitler's hands and many at Stalin's, the Jews saw Israel as their only shot at being responsible for their own security. They take it exceedingly serious.

And here we are today. Arab and Persian states hate the very idea of Israel. They hate being humiliated by an old foe - the mere presence of an Israeli state is a huge insult. Like a cancer in something beautiful - surely it must be removed!

The Israelis are kind of tired of being persecuted and killed by the millions while they were 'protected' by the nationstates they resided in. Now they are responsible for their own security and there ain't no 'effing way that ANYONE, Germans, Russians, Christians, Muslims is gonna carry out another genocide without paying an awful price.

Then add religion to the mix...

[idrankwhat 0]

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How about we stop screwing around in the Middle East. Pull our military out of the area. Stop giving Israel billions in aid. Let them decide how to handle their affairs.

Basically, simply closing our checkbook is my realistic desire. It will get the job done and it really won't cost us a dime. The military "whack a mole" exercise would be very expensive. The only argument for initiating it would be to illustrate to the entire region that we're not picking sides and that all wrong doers should be crushed. I think either or both would go a long way towards making the American people safer and in less debt.

[idrankwhat 0]

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And if they realize that they're going to lose all that military hardware we're selling them? They might decide that a separate peace is a better option than pre-emptive war. Or they might not; completely up to them. It's not our war.

The jews in the US would never go for that.

Then they're free to leave. I'll hold the door for them. If they want to stay, that's fine too but they need to realize that the US military and US taxpayer dollars are to be used in the best interest of the US.

[lawrocket 3]

To go back to this, the front page of Yahoo, apparently there has been violence between Hamas and Fatah over leadership in the Gaza Strip. It seems that Fatah wishes to recognize Israel, while Hamas is dedicated to destroying Israel.

So, we've got Fatah, who seems to be looking forward. We've got Israel, who seems to be looking forward. And we've got Hamas that seems to be of the desire to ensure future blood soaking of the land.

So what we see is a situation where there are plenty of Palestinians who want to put a stop to the fighting. It's not all Muslims - only certain groups - that are at the root of this.

It so happens that groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad are screwing it up for other Palestinians. At least, that appears to be the case, or else they wouldn't be fighting each other and killing 14 year-old boys in the cross-fire.

One more thing - Israel isn't immune from this. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a guy who was pissed off at peace efforts by Rabin to the Muslim militants, and didn't think that bygones could be bygones.

I, for one, don't want the world controlled by those like Hamas and Kach.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[beowulf 1]

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and the cycle continues. So it will never end due to people just like you.

LOL

You crack me up. So the people who started the problem are fine the people fighting back for there land are the cause of the problem??????

I want some of what you’re smoking.

It doesn't matter any more who started the problem or when it started or why it was started. What does matter is what is being done to end this cycle of violence. Your type of attitude is what is continuing the violence and blood shed.

[idrankwhat 0]

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To go back to this, the front page of Yahoo, apparently there has been violence between Hamas and Fatah over leadership in the Gaza Strip. It seems that Fatah wishes to recognize Israel, while Hamas is dedicated to destroying Israel........

That was until June 27th 2006. I'm not sure if they still feel that way. Israel may have pissed...I mean bombed that opportunity away.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5121164.stm

[Darius11 12]

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If Palestine were capable would you have supported them if they destroyed all of Israelis infrastructure?

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No. Would you have supported it? Answer this one - it's a pretty important question to see where you are coming from. I ask this because I believe what's right is right if nobody does it or no matter who does it, and what's wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it or even if everybdy's doing it.

Do you share this belief?

Yes i do 100%

Unfortunately we have many people who are so off center that forces me to go in the opposite direction just so we can get back in the middle.



Great post Lawrocket. I disagree with some points but all in all a very well written and fair post. I appreciate that.

Palestine has suffered a lot from Israeli but they have also suffered as much or maybe even more because of horrible and corrupt leadership.

However the new leadership is not given a chance to gain some power and respect from the people to do anything.

Israel once again has broken international law and kid napped cabinet members of democratically elected Hamas. If Hammas is not treated like legitimate government and is not respected by the Israelis their people will not respect them. The only thing that will be respected will be violence and vengeance.

How would we feel about our government if Canada could just walk in and arrest our president? What option would we consider?

I agree that Israel should protect it self and it’s citizens however it should open up talks on territories that Palestinians have a legal claim on, It should start treating them with dignity, and it should respect international law.


You said Jews were hated more then 50 years ago I agreed with you they have been hated by different groups all threw time. I don’t know the reason behind this hate if there is one.

I know some Christians hate Jews because they see them as the killer of Christ and I know Muslims were friends with Jews until they were betrayed by them in a famous battle that for some reason I can’t remember the name of right now. But it had to do with letting people in to a Muslim City wall that end it up in murder of many Muslims

These issues are so old and to blame all Jews for the actions of a few is as stupid as blaming all Muslims for 9-11.

The whole picture is very complicated. We have extremist on both sides, and we have people providing fuel for those extremists as well. Very bad combination.

Every time a suicide bomber is sent to Israel there is fuel for the Israeli extremists, and every time Israel kills Palestinins or invades the borders it provides fuel for more suicide bombers.

How does the cycle end? Who has the power to take the high road?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[lawrocket 3]

My actual thoughts on this are that the corrupt and the dangerous in the Middle East have figured out something important - the easiest way to stay in power is to piss off Israel.

Israel's long-established policy is straight outta the Untouchables: "They pull a knife, we pull a gun. They put one of ours in the hospital, we put one of theirs in the morgue. That's the Israeli way."

So you've got Fatah making strides towards establishing themselves in the Palestine government. Hamas says, "Oh, shit." Hamas decides to kidnap an Israeli soldier. Israel counterattacks (like it always does) in a shock and awe manner. Now all of the Palestinians are anti-Israel. Hamas gets a power surge. Tries to one-up Israel. Israel one-ups them. They get madder. UN intervenes. Hamas keeps power. A reactionary Israeli government ensues.

Repeat.

I don't see it ending too soon.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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So your telling me that if your land that you lived on and home was taken and given away you would bake the people who took the land a pie? Come on man be honest? You know that’s full of shit.

There were a lot of losers in WW2 - the Palestinians were hardly the only ones. Yet everywhere else people seem to have moved on - and in many cases the ties between winners and losers is much stronger now.

So find another lame rationalization.

[kelpdiver 2]

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And if they realize that they're going to lose all that military hardware we're selling them? They might decide that a separate peace is a better option than pre-emptive war. Or they might not; completely up to them. It's not our war.

The jews in the US would never go for that.

Then they're free to leave. I'll hold the door for them. If they want to stay, that's fine too but they need to realize that the US military and US taxpayer dollars are to be used in the best interest of the US.

Their votes count as much as your's does.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I like some of your other posts but on this issue, you scare me. That aside, I have a better solution. I'm tired of this as well and it's in the interest of the US's national and fiscal security to put an end to it. My proposal is to mobilize US Air Force and Navy as well as a few satellites to orbit Israel, Gaza, Lebanon and the West Bank. Any and all Arab and Israeli military vehicles need to return to return to their bases inside of their internationally legally recognized borders. Any movement of those vehicles/aircraft and they will be immediately targeted and destroyed. Any aggressive action or occupational incursion will be met with destructive military force. I don't care who does it. One strike and you're out.
Oh yea, we should also take at least half of the money that we give Israel and use it to rebuild Lebanon and Gaza. Either that, or we take our money, our military hardware and our UN veto pen and go home.

Given how little the world trusts the US in Iraq, and I imagine you're in that group.

Why TF would anyone want the US to have total authority over the entire region?

This notion is beyond dead on arrival. No nation would put up with such conditions on their sovereighty. Iraq is the only one without a beef having surrendered in 1991.

[idrankwhat 0]

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The jews in the US would never go for that.

Then they're free to leave. I'll hold the door for them. If they want to stay, that's fine too but they need to realize that the US military and US taxpayer dollars are to be used in the best interest of the US.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Why TF would anyone want the US to have total authority over the entire region?

Ahhhh......You're beginning to see how the Arab's feel about Israel's role in the region.

[Darius11 12]

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So your telling me that if your land that you lived on and home was taken and given away you would bake the people who took the land a pie? Come on man be honest? You know that’s full of shit.

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There were a lot of losers in WW2 - the Palestinians were hardly the only ones. Yet everywhere else people seem to have moved on - and in many cases the ties between winners and losers is much stronger now.

So find another lame rationalization.

You know that Palestine is not in Europe right?


As to why everyone is getting along
No one is holding any ones land. There aren’t American tanks in Germany destroying houses, We aren’t holding Berlin and claming it as New Washington, and there aren’t any Germans that are in are prisons being tortured. How many German children do we have in our prisons?

Oh yea not to mention the BIG point. Germany started the war. What did the Palestinians do? They had their land taken and they want it back

As for Lame rationalization look in the mirror………………oh yea and open your eyes.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[beowulf 1]

You have all these excuse why the bloodshed continues maybe you should look for excuses to end the bloodshed. It is in the interest of Hamas and Hezbollah to continue the fight and not look for a peaceful solution. It is not in the interest of the people of Lebanon or the Palestinians to continue the fighting. Why do you support Hezbollah and Hamas? Why do you make excuses for them?

[crozby 0]

I've just read this entire post - it took a while... I have a couple of questions:


1. Darius: Ideally, what would you like Israel to do? It can't vanish, it can't uproot and go somewhere else. What is your ideal solution?

2. Amazon: Are you a Jew? I ask because your posts are usually so anti-right-wing, but when it comes to Israel you come across like a right hard-arse.

[idrankwhat 0]

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You have all these excuse why the bloodshed continues maybe you should look for excuses to end the bloodshed. It is in the interest of Hamas and Hezbollah to continue the fight and not look for a peaceful solution. It is not in the interest of the people of Lebanon or the Palestinians to continue the fighting. Why do you support Hezbollah and Hamas? Why do you make excuses for them?

Why do people support Israel when they're in violation of numerous UN violations on occupation and human rights, have WMD's, are occupying land that is outside their borders, staging mock and real air raids frequently, kidnapping their neighbors and detaining thousands of political prisoners? Why support either side? The only reason that I speak up and point out Israel's role in propagating this conflict is that Israel already has plenty of apologists and the media portrays them as a victim instead of an active participant. And if they would get back on their legally recognized land and quit provoking their neighbors then I'd be in full support of them.

[crozby 0]

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Why do people support Israel when they're in violation of numerous UN violations on occupation and human rights

Jews support israel. Jews in positions of power in the US government and the US media propagate the notion that Israelis are "people just like us" to garner support from non-Jewish Americans. It works.

In Europe, Israelis and Arabs are seen as pretty much the same. Moderates on both sides, fanatics on both sides. That said, EU cash goes predominately to Palestine, but maybe thats just because we all favour the under-dog.