"The US and Israel stand alone"

[jakee 1,563]

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- Israel has not bombed the entire nation of Lebanon. Mr. Carter is either lying or ignorant of the facts.

What for you would qualify as bombing the whole of Lebanon, flattening every building? Israel has bombed military, political, economic and civilian targets throughout Lebanon, attacks in no way limited to the border zone they were attempting to occupy. How is Mr. Carter lying about this?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[TheAnvil 0]

Get your facts in order. The entire nation has not been bombed. State that it has as often as you an Mr. Carter desire. It won't make it any less fictitious than the statement already is.

Many, eh? Israel holds many prisoners. So does the state of California.

The interview was typical of one from Mr. Carter these days - absolutely horrid.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[crozby 0]

dude, your blind support for anything israel does, and your never-ending support for Dubbie is scary.

sometimes you just have to acknowledge "my side fucked-up". it's ok. they do fuck up from time to time. they are only human.

pretending they are perfect when they clearly are not just makes you look silly.

[Darius11 12]

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Get your facts in order. The entire nation has not been bombed. State that it has as often as you an Mr. Carter desire. It won't make it any less fictitious than the statement already is.

Many, eh? Israel holds many prisoners. So does the state of California.

The interview was typical of one from Mr. Carter these days - absolutely horrid.

Are you trying not to see the facts Bill and everyone else is pointing out ?


This remind me of Steven Colbert Turthiness report.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 3,070]

>Israel holds many prisoners. So does the state of California.

Right. Israel started this war when Hezbollah held two, so clearly it's not always OK.

>The interview was typical of one from Mr. Carter these days - absolutely horrid.

I could see why you think that. It was cogent, clear and perceptive, and serves to remind people what sort of person might be speaking for our country had we made better choices in 2004.

[TheAnvil 0]

You should read more of my posts. I've criticized both Israel and GWB and will continue to do so when I disagree with them.

Darius - to what fact in particular are you referring?

Bill - equating the Hezbollah abduction of Israeli soldiers to the prisoners held in Israeli jails is absurd and you know it.

Carter's interview was abominable and easy to pick apart. GWB was the lesser of two evils in both '00 and '04. Wiser choices in '04? I think not.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[idrankwhat 0]

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Get your facts in order. The entire nation has not been bombed. State that it has as often as you an Mr. Carter desire. It won't make it any less fictitious than the statement already is.

My facts *are* in order. Admittedly Israel did not carpet bomb Lebanon but they busted up the infrastructure all over the state. Their plan was to bomb the shit out of everything so that Lebanon's Christian and Sunni populations would hopefully rise up against Hizbollah and to keep Hizbollah from being able to transport anything. And for the icing on the cake, Israel even left some nifty little cluster bomblets behind to spice up the clean up. Wasn't that thoughtful?
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/17/lebano14026.htm

[idrankwhat 0]

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Bill - equating the Hezbollah abduction of Israeli soldiers to the prisoners held in Israeli jails is absurd and you know it.

No it's not. Israel crossed the border into Gaza in June and kidnapped/arrested almost 40 Hamas politicians and cabinet members. No reason was given that I'm aware of other than that they don't like the democratically elected Hamas leadership.

[TheAnvil 0]

Incorrect. A reason was given. Hamas was involved in the kidnapping of CPL Gilad, therefore Hamas members will be targets of arrest.

A democratically elected terrorist is still a terrorist.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,070]

>Bill - equating the Hezbollah abduction of Israeli soldiers to the
>prisoners held in Israeli jails is absurd and you know it.

You're right. Israel is holding several orders of magniture more prisoners than Hezbollah.

[outrager 6]

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Incorrect. A reason was given. Hamas was involved in the kidnapping of CPL Gilad, therefore Hamas members will be targets of arrest.

And IDF was involved in kidnappings of Palestinians, therefore IDF members will be the targets of arrest

You really amuse me

bsbd!

Yuri.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Incorrect. A reason was given. Hamas was involved in the kidnapping of CPL Gilad, therefore Hamas members will be targets of arrest.

A democratically elected terrorist is still a terrorist.

Personally, I'd call the kidnapping of political leaders a deliberate act of war against the people who elected those leaders. Israel gets what it asks for. And since they have US backing they don't care if they break international laws. Hamas is only considered a terrorist organization because that's the label given to them by the US and Israel. And the fact that the US supports this attack on a fledgling democracy in the middle east just shows precisely the nature of the hypocrites running this country. Their logic reminds me the old saying "The beatings will continue until morale improves" .

[Gawain 0]

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Carter was a very underrated President.

No he was not. History has been weirdly kind to him though. He has contributed more to society with his Habitat for Humanity project than he ever did politically.

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Remember that he came directly after Nixon (& the caretaker).

Incorrect. He was elected over President Ford. It was one of the closest elections in US history.

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He did a couple of embarrassing things, like his policy towards Cuban Emigres which could have been better thought out, but he also did some good stuff.

His intentions were, in fact, very good. His concepts were in the right direction, but his executions were ineffective. Interest rates and unemployment soared while he was in office. It culminated in a recession in '81-'82. SALT II was decent work. Diplomatic relations with China was natural course. The Camp David Accords worked, but US and other forces are still between Egypt and Israel, and Egypt "enabling" Hamas in Gaza. A loophole of sorts.

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Remember that HE was the one who cleaned up Defense and began the increases in their budget to make them an effective force again.

That happened the year he was defeated in the national election, and only then after the USSR invaded Afghanistan (it also followed our failed rescue attempt in Iran). It also did not revive what are regarded as critical systems (which contributed to the US leverage over the USSR in the START talks) like the B-1 Lancer and the MX missile.

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Whether you like or loathe his stance on an issue, no-one can deny his intelligence, honesty & principle. These arre rare qualities in our current crop of leaders & candidates.

Normally I wouldn't disagree with you, however President Carter has overextended his role as an "elder statesman". Two shining examples of how to fill that role: Presidents G.H.W. Bush and W. Clinton.

Do I doubt his principles or intelligence, no. His ability, absolutely. He found real achievement after being elected out of office, when you're no longer "in office" though, grace is paramount. He's exceeding his credibility.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TheAnvil 0]

Bill - equating the actions of a nation-state to a terrorist organization is absurdity at its finest. The comparison is invalid from any perspective.

idrankwhat - Are you trying to out-do Lucky and win the coveted 'Anvil-rated Speaker's Corner Most Hilarious Post Ever Award' ? Hamas only considered a terrorist organiation because that's the label given to the by the US and Israel? Dear God man! If you were stating that in sarcasm, I didn't pick up on it. Hamas supports suicide bombings to such an extent that one of its female members elected to office bragged about sending her sons off to be murderers (she used the term martyr). If that doesn't qualify them as a terrorist organization, what does?

I call the deliberate kidnapping of the soldiers of a nation-state an act of war. I call the arresting of members of the group whose militants aided/abetted the kidnapping a good move.

If the Israelis were attacking Lebanon and not the Hezbollah terrorists embedded theirein, their methods and targets of attack would have been much, much different. There would be no Lebanese army left to enter Southern Lebanon. The US did not support an attack on the nation of Lebanon - we support attacks on the terrorists taking refuge there.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[miked10270 0]

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Bill - equating the actions of a nation-state to a terrorist organization is absurdity at its finest. The comparison is invalid from any perspective.

Err... Which is the "Nation-State" and which is the "Terrorist-Organisation"? Both are independent countries. Both governments are elected.

With regard to the prisoners held by Israel; Under Israeli anti-terror laws, "Suspects" can be held for up to 6 months then must be charged or released.

Fair enough.

What's actually done to these "Suspects" is that they're held for the 6 months, released without charge, but "Gated". As soon as they're (administratively) released, they're re-arrested (at the gate), and the 6 months starts all over again. No investigation. No building a case against any "Suspect" or testing of the case in a court. Just a 6-monthly recycle.

That is unjust from ANY viewpoint. It actually makes Gitmo look fair by comparison.

Mike.

Edited to add: How would you feel if your relatives were being held under such a system? Would it make you want to do something about it? Say... Kidnap a cop or a judge and demand your relative's release?

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[TheAnvil 0]

Hezbollah is a nation state? I think not.

I haven't read anywhere but here in this thread about the 6 month gate and release program the Israelis are purportedly running. I don't agree with such a system. Do you have any Reuters/AP or other links?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,070]

>Hezbollah is a nation state? I think not.

Hezbollah is a political party elected by the people of Lebanon; it has 10% of the seats in Parliament right now. Hamas is also a political party that won more than 50% of the seats of government last time.

Attacking Hezbollah or Hamas would be akin to terrorists coming to the US and attacking Republicans (or in the case of Hezbollah, Libertarians.) One might claim that they weren't attacking the US, but I think most US citizens would disagree.

[Gawain 0]

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>Hezbollah is a nation state? I think not.

Hezbollah is a political party elected by the people of Lebanon; it has 10% of the seats in Parliament right now. Hamas is also a political party that won more than 50% of the seats of government last time.

Attacking Hezbollah or Hamas would be akin to terrorists coming to the US and attacking Republicans (or in the case of Hezbollah, Libertarians.) One might claim that they weren't attacking the US, but I think most US citizens would disagree.

Maybe if the Republicans, or Democrats (or political party of choice here in the US) attacked and kidnapped some Mexicans, then Mexico attacked the US in the process of pursuing the aforementioned political party -- then your comparison would be more on target.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mpohl 1]

As Peter Ustinov, an accomplished British playwright and ambassador for UNICEF once noted:

"War is the terror of the rich, and terror is the war of the poor."


And no, don't reply. Just think, I mean really think, about it.

Edited: UNICEF, not UNESCO as I initially stated.

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Bill - equating the actions of a nation-state to a terrorist organization is absurdity at its finest.

[kallend 2,106]

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>Hezbollah is a nation state? I think not.

Hezbollah is a political party elected by the people of Lebanon; it has 10% of the seats in Parliament right now. Hamas is also a political party that won more than 50% of the seats of government last time.

Attacking Hezbollah or Hamas would be akin to terrorists coming to the US and attacking Republicans (or in the case of Hezbollah, Libertarians.) One might claim that they weren't attacking the US, but I think most US citizens would disagree.

Maybe if the Republicans, or Democrats (or political party of choice here in the US) attacked and kidnapped some Mexicans, then Mexico attacked the US in the process of pursuing the aforementioned political party -- then your comparison would be more on target.

I think the leader of the Republican party has indeed initiated the kidnap and continued detention of a number of foreign nationals, and is holding them in Guantanamo. A few of them may be terrorists, but apparently many are just bystanders who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

A political party..AHHHH! Nation-state - definitely not.

When either the Republicans or Democrats start accepting monetary and military support from another nation and subsequently begin using said military support to assault innocents, I'll start thinking that analogy somewhat credible.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,070]

>When either the Republicans or Democrats start accepting monetary
>and military support from another nation and subsequently begin using
>said military support to assault innocents, I'll start thinking that analogy
>somewhat credible.

You reject the analogy because the US has more money than the Palestinians? You're having to dig pretty deep lately.

[kallend 2,106]

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A political party..AHHHH! Nation-state - definitely not.

When either the Republicans or Democrats start accepting monetary and military support from another nation and subsequently begin using said military support to assault innocents, I'll start thinking that analogy somewhat credible.

Hasn't our Republican president accepted military support from "a coalition of the willing", and directly or indirectly used that support to kill maybe 20,000 Iraqi civilians, most of whom were innocent of anything?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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I think the leader of the Republican party has indeed initiated the kidnap and continued detention of a number of foreign nationals, and is holding them in Guantanamo. A few of them may be terrorists, but apparently many are just bystanders who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You're certainly allowed to believe that. However, since Guantanamo detainees were captured overseas, I see holes in your theory.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[wmw999 2,534]

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You're certainly allowed to believe that. However, since Guantanamo detainees were captured overseas, I see holes in your theory.

Why does their having been captured overseas make a difference? There are innocent bystanders overseas.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)