kelpdiver 2 #151 August 21, 2006 Quote His point was simple, there's always been a wide variation of knowledge and ability, and you shouldn't expect greatness to emerge from a poll of the masses. I'm pretty confident that was not remotely his point, but he can say either way if he wishes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #152 August 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Again, wtf was your point of quoting Newton? I'm sure you can figure it out if you try. Lovely bedside manner you've got there, John. I take it Dale Carnegie isn't one of your favorite authors. Kallend: "Dale WHO?" If you'r trying to win friends and influence anyone, try something else.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #153 August 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Again, wtf was your point of quoting Newton? I'm sure you can figure it out if you try. Lovely bedside manner you've got there, John. I take it Dale Carnegie isn't one of your favorite authors. Kallend: "Dale WHO?" If you'r trying to win friends and influence anyone, try something else. PAH! Neither, you old grump! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #154 August 21, 2006 QuoteQuote Nice ressonabe post and I do not agree with any of it. I screwed up as I meant "I do not DISagree with any of it. My bad, sorry You didn't say why. Quote Please remember however that my post was in the context of education political issues and voters. It seems that if a certin chosen one does not get elected it was the uninformed uneducated masses that did the dirty deed. I get tired of that characterization I think, no matter who is elected, that most voters are not educated to the degree they ought to be about the issues, the candidates, our constitution, and our legal system. Many people vote along party lines because they don't understand the issues and don't research the candidates. I don't think it's got anything to do with college. Anybody can read their voter guide, go to their library and look up the candidates on the internet, and read their party's platform.Quote My screw up did lead to this and for that I am thankful. So, (no disrepect meant) what is "educated enough" and who decides? College is too late to wait to educate kids about the way our government should work, what its role is, and what its role is not. Constitutional law should be a mandatory high school subject. I could not agree more and it should go futher to detail the struggles and length of time it took to establish what began this country In recent years, it seems as though we've been confusing the role of high schools and colleges. After high school, a person should have a working knowledge of math, science, English, history, and political science. College is supposed to be extra education, above and beyond the basics. Colleges shouldn't have to teach composition and grammar. That's high school's job. Colleges certainly shouldn't be teaching remedial math, basic chemistry, biology, or physics. They shouldn't have to teach that the US Constitution overrules the majority vote. A high school graduate should already know this stuff.Quote Again I agree College should be an extra, but recently, people have been looking at it as a necessity. Not everybody should go to college. Not everybody wants to go to college. They should be able to get along fine without that degree, but more and more, employers expect it and people without it are treated as second-class. Agreed but is that right? Sorry for the confusion"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #155 August 21, 2006 Quotea. let's cut to the chase. My impression is that you're talking about people complaining about GWB getting elected by the "uninformed uneducated masses." So don't generalize it to everyone. b. the vast majority of Nightingale's post has to do with its impact on her life. I'm not really sure how you can disagree with someone's perception of their own life. c. the vast majority of jobs that I've held had a college degree (or set number of hours) as a prerequisite. You could get around it, but the path was harder. Spud Webb was a 5'4" NBA star, so technically it's also possible for Vinny to be a basketball star if he's just determined enough. It's just that there are a lot more slots for the people who already have the desired qualifications, than the ones who make the hiring manager/whatever go through extra steps to make sure that they can do the job. And we're just talking about jobs here. I also consider my life to have been enriched by my degree (in a dreaded social science, no less). Wendy W. Please refer to my reply to her as I messed up my post"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #156 August 22, 2006 >>but more and more, employers expect it and people without it >>are treated as second-class. >Agreed but is that right? Is it right that employers hire employees with better education? No right or wrong about that; they can do whatever they want, and hiring people with degrees is generally just common sense. Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) Is it right that employers treat some people badly (i.e. belittle them) just because they don't have an education? Nope, that's not right. Here we hire all sorts of people, from non-degreed office clerks to two year degree lab techs to four year degree engineers. Seems to work out. If a clerk wants to go to school, we subsidize part of their education so they can become technicians/engineers. But in general the more schooling you have the more you get paid, the more career opportunities you have, and the faster you will rise in the hierarchy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #157 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #158 August 22, 2006 Quote I screwed up as I meant "I do not DISagree with any of it. My bad, sorry Quote My screw up did lead to this and for that I am thankful. So, (no disrepect meant) what is "educated enough" and who decides? "Educated enough," in my opinion, means being literate and knowing how to use resources such as a library or the internet to look up necessary information, and knowing how to discriminate between sources to determine accuracy, and how to write a report on it. Also, enough math to be able to manage their finances and file income tax, enough science to understand how our bodies work along with basic physics and chemistry, and, of course, a working knowledge of our government and constitution, as well as at least some idea of US and world history. So, in my opinion, required classes to graduate high school should be: Composition/Grammar/Research Algebra 1 Physical Science (basic chem/physics) Life Science (basic biology/health) US History and Government World History and foreign governments No, it's not right that people look down on people who do not have a college degree. They've simply made a different life choice based on their own priorities. Businesses, however, have the right to hire who they wish, education wise. My dad does many of the job interviews for his department, and says that he never hires people without a degree if at all possible, because when he hires someone who's gone through college, he gets someone who he knows can probably research whatever he needs done, and is more likely to be able to compose a legible memo about it. He doesn't want to waste time correcting the grammar and spelling of the people below him. I totally understand that. What I don't understand is why people aren't learning those skills in high school. Reading "Huckleberry Finn" is good, but learning how to write a memo to your boss is probably a lot more important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #159 August 22, 2006 Quote Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) the benefit of education is much clearer in engineering. But in the office world, the skills of a humanities degree that translate to productivity are much fuzzier. Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #160 August 22, 2006 >Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of >intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? I think it's both, and there's a third aspect as well. If you can register for college, get to class, deal with all the crap that any student has to deal with, pay for it, turn in papers, take tests etc - that's a pretty good gauge of whether you'll be able to deal with all the minutiae of the office world. Someone who cannot or does not want to deal with all the nonsense school involves may well have a good reason for not wanting to deal with it. But they may well apply the same reasoning to that part of their eventual job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #161 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuote His point was simple, there's always been a wide variation of knowledge and ability, and you shouldn't expect greatness to emerge from a poll of the masses. I'm pretty confident that was not remotely his point, but he can say either way if he wishes. It was explained by the second part of the post, which you seem not to have bothered to think about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #162 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grandI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #163 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grand There are a lot of poorly educated multi-millionaires in the NBA, but on the whole it is not a good idea to encourage kids to drop out of school to play basketball.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 7 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
micro 0 #153 August 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Again, wtf was your point of quoting Newton? I'm sure you can figure it out if you try. Lovely bedside manner you've got there, John. I take it Dale Carnegie isn't one of your favorite authors. Kallend: "Dale WHO?" If you'r trying to win friends and influence anyone, try something else. PAH! Neither, you old grump! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #154 August 21, 2006 QuoteQuote Nice ressonabe post and I do not agree with any of it. I screwed up as I meant "I do not DISagree with any of it. My bad, sorry You didn't say why. Quote Please remember however that my post was in the context of education political issues and voters. It seems that if a certin chosen one does not get elected it was the uninformed uneducated masses that did the dirty deed. I get tired of that characterization I think, no matter who is elected, that most voters are not educated to the degree they ought to be about the issues, the candidates, our constitution, and our legal system. Many people vote along party lines because they don't understand the issues and don't research the candidates. I don't think it's got anything to do with college. Anybody can read their voter guide, go to their library and look up the candidates on the internet, and read their party's platform.Quote My screw up did lead to this and for that I am thankful. So, (no disrepect meant) what is "educated enough" and who decides? College is too late to wait to educate kids about the way our government should work, what its role is, and what its role is not. Constitutional law should be a mandatory high school subject. I could not agree more and it should go futher to detail the struggles and length of time it took to establish what began this country In recent years, it seems as though we've been confusing the role of high schools and colleges. After high school, a person should have a working knowledge of math, science, English, history, and political science. College is supposed to be extra education, above and beyond the basics. Colleges shouldn't have to teach composition and grammar. That's high school's job. Colleges certainly shouldn't be teaching remedial math, basic chemistry, biology, or physics. They shouldn't have to teach that the US Constitution overrules the majority vote. A high school graduate should already know this stuff.Quote Again I agree College should be an extra, but recently, people have been looking at it as a necessity. Not everybody should go to college. Not everybody wants to go to college. They should be able to get along fine without that degree, but more and more, employers expect it and people without it are treated as second-class. Agreed but is that right? Sorry for the confusion"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #155 August 21, 2006 Quotea. let's cut to the chase. My impression is that you're talking about people complaining about GWB getting elected by the "uninformed uneducated masses." So don't generalize it to everyone. b. the vast majority of Nightingale's post has to do with its impact on her life. I'm not really sure how you can disagree with someone's perception of their own life. c. the vast majority of jobs that I've held had a college degree (or set number of hours) as a prerequisite. You could get around it, but the path was harder. Spud Webb was a 5'4" NBA star, so technically it's also possible for Vinny to be a basketball star if he's just determined enough. It's just that there are a lot more slots for the people who already have the desired qualifications, than the ones who make the hiring manager/whatever go through extra steps to make sure that they can do the job. And we're just talking about jobs here. I also consider my life to have been enriched by my degree (in a dreaded social science, no less). Wendy W. Please refer to my reply to her as I messed up my post"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #156 August 22, 2006 >>but more and more, employers expect it and people without it >>are treated as second-class. >Agreed but is that right? Is it right that employers hire employees with better education? No right or wrong about that; they can do whatever they want, and hiring people with degrees is generally just common sense. Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) Is it right that employers treat some people badly (i.e. belittle them) just because they don't have an education? Nope, that's not right. Here we hire all sorts of people, from non-degreed office clerks to two year degree lab techs to four year degree engineers. Seems to work out. If a clerk wants to go to school, we subsidize part of their education so they can become technicians/engineers. But in general the more schooling you have the more you get paid, the more career opportunities you have, and the faster you will rise in the hierarchy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #157 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #158 August 22, 2006 Quote I screwed up as I meant "I do not DISagree with any of it. My bad, sorry Quote My screw up did lead to this and for that I am thankful. So, (no disrepect meant) what is "educated enough" and who decides? "Educated enough," in my opinion, means being literate and knowing how to use resources such as a library or the internet to look up necessary information, and knowing how to discriminate between sources to determine accuracy, and how to write a report on it. Also, enough math to be able to manage their finances and file income tax, enough science to understand how our bodies work along with basic physics and chemistry, and, of course, a working knowledge of our government and constitution, as well as at least some idea of US and world history. So, in my opinion, required classes to graduate high school should be: Composition/Grammar/Research Algebra 1 Physical Science (basic chem/physics) Life Science (basic biology/health) US History and Government World History and foreign governments No, it's not right that people look down on people who do not have a college degree. They've simply made a different life choice based on their own priorities. Businesses, however, have the right to hire who they wish, education wise. My dad does many of the job interviews for his department, and says that he never hires people without a degree if at all possible, because when he hires someone who's gone through college, he gets someone who he knows can probably research whatever he needs done, and is more likely to be able to compose a legible memo about it. He doesn't want to waste time correcting the grammar and spelling of the people below him. I totally understand that. What I don't understand is why people aren't learning those skills in high school. Reading "Huckleberry Finn" is good, but learning how to write a memo to your boss is probably a lot more important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #159 August 22, 2006 Quote Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) the benefit of education is much clearer in engineering. But in the office world, the skills of a humanities degree that translate to productivity are much fuzzier. Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #160 August 22, 2006 >Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of >intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? I think it's both, and there's a third aspect as well. If you can register for college, get to class, deal with all the crap that any student has to deal with, pay for it, turn in papers, take tests etc - that's a pretty good gauge of whether you'll be able to deal with all the minutiae of the office world. Someone who cannot or does not want to deal with all the nonsense school involves may well have a good reason for not wanting to deal with it. But they may well apply the same reasoning to that part of their eventual job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #161 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuote His point was simple, there's always been a wide variation of knowledge and ability, and you shouldn't expect greatness to emerge from a poll of the masses. I'm pretty confident that was not remotely his point, but he can say either way if he wishes. It was explained by the second part of the post, which you seem not to have bothered to think about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #162 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grandI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #163 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grand There are a lot of poorly educated multi-millionaires in the NBA, but on the whole it is not a good idea to encourage kids to drop out of school to play basketball.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 7 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rushmc 23 #154 August 21, 2006 QuoteQuote Nice ressonabe post and I do not agree with any of it. I screwed up as I meant "I do not DISagree with any of it. My bad, sorry You didn't say why. Quote Please remember however that my post was in the context of education political issues and voters. It seems that if a certin chosen one does not get elected it was the uninformed uneducated masses that did the dirty deed. I get tired of that characterization I think, no matter who is elected, that most voters are not educated to the degree they ought to be about the issues, the candidates, our constitution, and our legal system. Many people vote along party lines because they don't understand the issues and don't research the candidates. I don't think it's got anything to do with college. Anybody can read their voter guide, go to their library and look up the candidates on the internet, and read their party's platform.Quote My screw up did lead to this and for that I am thankful. So, (no disrepect meant) what is "educated enough" and who decides? College is too late to wait to educate kids about the way our government should work, what its role is, and what its role is not. Constitutional law should be a mandatory high school subject. I could not agree more and it should go futher to detail the struggles and length of time it took to establish what began this country In recent years, it seems as though we've been confusing the role of high schools and colleges. After high school, a person should have a working knowledge of math, science, English, history, and political science. College is supposed to be extra education, above and beyond the basics. Colleges shouldn't have to teach composition and grammar. That's high school's job. Colleges certainly shouldn't be teaching remedial math, basic chemistry, biology, or physics. They shouldn't have to teach that the US Constitution overrules the majority vote. A high school graduate should already know this stuff.Quote Again I agree College should be an extra, but recently, people have been looking at it as a necessity. Not everybody should go to college. Not everybody wants to go to college. They should be able to get along fine without that degree, but more and more, employers expect it and people without it are treated as second-class. Agreed but is that right? Sorry for the confusion"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #155 August 21, 2006 Quotea. let's cut to the chase. My impression is that you're talking about people complaining about GWB getting elected by the "uninformed uneducated masses." So don't generalize it to everyone. b. the vast majority of Nightingale's post has to do with its impact on her life. I'm not really sure how you can disagree with someone's perception of their own life. c. the vast majority of jobs that I've held had a college degree (or set number of hours) as a prerequisite. You could get around it, but the path was harder. Spud Webb was a 5'4" NBA star, so technically it's also possible for Vinny to be a basketball star if he's just determined enough. It's just that there are a lot more slots for the people who already have the desired qualifications, than the ones who make the hiring manager/whatever go through extra steps to make sure that they can do the job. And we're just talking about jobs here. I also consider my life to have been enriched by my degree (in a dreaded social science, no less). Wendy W. Please refer to my reply to her as I messed up my post"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #156 August 22, 2006 >>but more and more, employers expect it and people without it >>are treated as second-class. >Agreed but is that right? Is it right that employers hire employees with better education? No right or wrong about that; they can do whatever they want, and hiring people with degrees is generally just common sense. Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) Is it right that employers treat some people badly (i.e. belittle them) just because they don't have an education? Nope, that's not right. Here we hire all sorts of people, from non-degreed office clerks to two year degree lab techs to four year degree engineers. Seems to work out. If a clerk wants to go to school, we subsidize part of their education so they can become technicians/engineers. But in general the more schooling you have the more you get paid, the more career opportunities you have, and the faster you will rise in the hierarchy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #157 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #158 August 22, 2006 Quote I screwed up as I meant "I do not DISagree with any of it. My bad, sorry Quote My screw up did lead to this and for that I am thankful. So, (no disrepect meant) what is "educated enough" and who decides? "Educated enough," in my opinion, means being literate and knowing how to use resources such as a library or the internet to look up necessary information, and knowing how to discriminate between sources to determine accuracy, and how to write a report on it. Also, enough math to be able to manage their finances and file income tax, enough science to understand how our bodies work along with basic physics and chemistry, and, of course, a working knowledge of our government and constitution, as well as at least some idea of US and world history. So, in my opinion, required classes to graduate high school should be: Composition/Grammar/Research Algebra 1 Physical Science (basic chem/physics) Life Science (basic biology/health) US History and Government World History and foreign governments No, it's not right that people look down on people who do not have a college degree. They've simply made a different life choice based on their own priorities. Businesses, however, have the right to hire who they wish, education wise. My dad does many of the job interviews for his department, and says that he never hires people without a degree if at all possible, because when he hires someone who's gone through college, he gets someone who he knows can probably research whatever he needs done, and is more likely to be able to compose a legible memo about it. He doesn't want to waste time correcting the grammar and spelling of the people below him. I totally understand that. What I don't understand is why people aren't learning those skills in high school. Reading "Huckleberry Finn" is good, but learning how to write a memo to your boss is probably a lot more important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #159 August 22, 2006 Quote Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) the benefit of education is much clearer in engineering. But in the office world, the skills of a humanities degree that translate to productivity are much fuzzier. Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,070 #160 August 22, 2006 >Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of >intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? I think it's both, and there's a third aspect as well. If you can register for college, get to class, deal with all the crap that any student has to deal with, pay for it, turn in papers, take tests etc - that's a pretty good gauge of whether you'll be able to deal with all the minutiae of the office world. Someone who cannot or does not want to deal with all the nonsense school involves may well have a good reason for not wanting to deal with it. But they may well apply the same reasoning to that part of their eventual job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #161 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuote His point was simple, there's always been a wide variation of knowledge and ability, and you shouldn't expect greatness to emerge from a poll of the masses. I'm pretty confident that was not remotely his point, but he can say either way if he wishes. It was explained by the second part of the post, which you seem not to have bothered to think about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #162 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grandI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #163 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grand There are a lot of poorly educated multi-millionaires in the NBA, but on the whole it is not a good idea to encourage kids to drop out of school to play basketball.... 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rushmc 23 #155 August 21, 2006 Quotea. let's cut to the chase. My impression is that you're talking about people complaining about GWB getting elected by the "uninformed uneducated masses." So don't generalize it to everyone. b. the vast majority of Nightingale's post has to do with its impact on her life. I'm not really sure how you can disagree with someone's perception of their own life. c. the vast majority of jobs that I've held had a college degree (or set number of hours) as a prerequisite. You could get around it, but the path was harder. Spud Webb was a 5'4" NBA star, so technically it's also possible for Vinny to be a basketball star if he's just determined enough. It's just that there are a lot more slots for the people who already have the desired qualifications, than the ones who make the hiring manager/whatever go through extra steps to make sure that they can do the job. And we're just talking about jobs here. I also consider my life to have been enriched by my degree (in a dreaded social science, no less). Wendy W. Please refer to my reply to her as I messed up my post"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #156 August 22, 2006 >>but more and more, employers expect it and people without it >>are treated as second-class. >Agreed but is that right? Is it right that employers hire employees with better education? No right or wrong about that; they can do whatever they want, and hiring people with degrees is generally just common sense. Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) Is it right that employers treat some people badly (i.e. belittle them) just because they don't have an education? Nope, that's not right. Here we hire all sorts of people, from non-degreed office clerks to two year degree lab techs to four year degree engineers. Seems to work out. If a clerk wants to go to school, we subsidize part of their education so they can become technicians/engineers. But in general the more schooling you have the more you get paid, the more career opportunities you have, and the faster you will rise in the hierarchy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #157 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #158 August 22, 2006 Quote I screwed up as I meant "I do not DISagree with any of it. My bad, sorry Quote My screw up did lead to this and for that I am thankful. So, (no disrepect meant) what is "educated enough" and who decides? "Educated enough," in my opinion, means being literate and knowing how to use resources such as a library or the internet to look up necessary information, and knowing how to discriminate between sources to determine accuracy, and how to write a report on it. Also, enough math to be able to manage their finances and file income tax, enough science to understand how our bodies work along with basic physics and chemistry, and, of course, a working knowledge of our government and constitution, as well as at least some idea of US and world history. So, in my opinion, required classes to graduate high school should be: Composition/Grammar/Research Algebra 1 Physical Science (basic chem/physics) Life Science (basic biology/health) US History and Government World History and foreign governments No, it's not right that people look down on people who do not have a college degree. They've simply made a different life choice based on their own priorities. Businesses, however, have the right to hire who they wish, education wise. My dad does many of the job interviews for his department, and says that he never hires people without a degree if at all possible, because when he hires someone who's gone through college, he gets someone who he knows can probably research whatever he needs done, and is more likely to be able to compose a legible memo about it. He doesn't want to waste time correcting the grammar and spelling of the people below him. I totally understand that. What I don't understand is why people aren't learning those skills in high school. Reading "Huckleberry Finn" is good, but learning how to write a memo to your boss is probably a lot more important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #159 August 22, 2006 Quote Employers hire people who will do the best job for the buck. If they can hire two people as mechanical engineers, and one can design a bridge that doesn't fall down and one can't, they will generally choose the one that can design a bridge that doesn't fall down. You can learn such things on-the-job but few employers are willing to subsidize that sort of learning curve. (i.e. let you build five or six bridges that fall down before getting it right.) So they hire the one that got taught that stuff by someone else (like a university.) the benefit of education is much clearer in engineering. But in the office world, the skills of a humanities degree that translate to productivity are much fuzzier. Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #160 August 22, 2006 >Are we learning something, or do we succeed merely because of >intelligence that resulted in us having choices in going to college? I think it's both, and there's a third aspect as well. If you can register for college, get to class, deal with all the crap that any student has to deal with, pay for it, turn in papers, take tests etc - that's a pretty good gauge of whether you'll be able to deal with all the minutiae of the office world. Someone who cannot or does not want to deal with all the nonsense school involves may well have a good reason for not wanting to deal with it. But they may well apply the same reasoning to that part of their eventual job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #161 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuote His point was simple, there's always been a wide variation of knowledge and ability, and you shouldn't expect greatness to emerge from a poll of the masses. I'm pretty confident that was not remotely his point, but he can say either way if he wishes. It was explained by the second part of the post, which you seem not to have bothered to think about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #162 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grandI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #163 August 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again. Show me your statistics that, ON THE WHOLE, the average citizen is not going to make more money with a degree. I don't care what you "think" (read: what you feel to be true). Just because it is true for you and people you know, it is certainly not indicative of how it is for everyone. I don't care that you don't care Apparently employers care in this bastion of capitalism: www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.htmlAccording to that chart I'd better quit whining and count my blessings. And all I have is a GED and a lot of hard knocks. I'm in the top percentile. Now. If I could just get the IRS (and state) and my ex's (and kids) outta my life it would be grand There are a lot of poorly educated multi-millionaires in the NBA, but on the whole it is not a good idea to encourage kids to drop out of school to play basketball.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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