You and your s/o are pregnant,

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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To add to the Chelle, I also believe God never gives one more then they can handle.

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A lot of people believe that it's murder and you should just deal with whatever God gives you.

Both I find silly arguments that people like to throw out there, but then don't really follow themselves. if you (general you) truly believe that, then you also should opt for any vaccinations, or birth in a hospital, or take any medication when sick, no operations etc, cause you just have to deal with what God gives you and God won't give you anything you can't deal with.

Funny enough, when parents decide for their kids not to take medication or not to be vaccinated or not to undergo chemo therapy, they are generally labeled as child abusers.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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if you (general you) truly believe that, then you also should opt for any vaccinations, or birth in a hospital, or take any medication when sick, no operations etc, cause you just have to deal with what God gives you and God won't give you anything you can't deal with.

God gave us freewill and the ability to progress. He gave us the means to be self sufficent but with the knowledge or the ability to seek such knowledge of his guidence. God answers all prayers, its just sometimes he says no.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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God gave us freewill and the ability to progress.

Exactly and just like vaccinations and drugs that cure, abortion is progress when used to prevent people from suffering.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Whose to say a person with Downs is suffering? They cant tell the degree, and I hate to say this, its people with differences and strife in life that tend to be happier because they learn to appreciate that in which they do have. My cousin has celbreal Palsey, hes a happy wonderful adult with a girlfriend, a good job and huge plans in life.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Whose to say a person with Downs is suffering?

Not me. But, I wasn't only talking the child, the parents can suffer as well. In a different thread we have already established that you have no issue with being selfish, so if a parent decides they do not want to have a child with Down's, abortion should be open to them.

[windcatcher 0]

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I'm sorry, but knowingly bringing someone into this world to fight an uphill battle the rest of their lives is just wrong, selfish and self serving,despite the fancy theories and wordsmithing PC shit

So only "perfect" people deserve to live then? Only "perfect" people have a reason to live, a purpose?
How can we separate those with "normal" defects like being born deaf, from those with "more serious" defects; how come we can pick and choose which child's life is more valuable, depending on close they come to being "perfect?"

If you've never had one of these defects, you don't know what kinds of lives they live; obviously they won't be perfect lives, but no one lives a perfect life.
Maybe having a kid with Downs Syndrome can help change one of the most selfish people on earth into one of the most loving and patient people that ever walked.

Let's not try and place people's worth and value above others.

I voted that I would keep the baby; yes, it would be hard, because every woman wants a "normal" baby; but I would know that as I chose to love the child as he/she is, I would learn a lot of REAL love and I would be changed forever.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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So only "perfect" people deserve to live then? Only "perfect" people have a reason to live, a purpose?

nope

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How can we separate those with "normal" defects like being born deaf, from those with "more serious" defects; how come we can pick and choose which child's life is more valuable, depending on close they come to being "perfect?"

Simple, leave it up to the parents to decide. They can decide what theya re willing to live with and what they aren't willing to live with. It's called free will and progress and being selfish and personal responsibility all rolled into one.

[windcatcher 0]

Absolutely! People can choose to be selfish anytime they want, and it IS their choice. I am way too selfish for being a Christian, but I know that I am not as bad as I used to be, and I am changing for the better.

But you are right--people have a free will, they can love/hate anyone they want to, they can make selfish decisions.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Absolutely! People can choose to be selfish anytime they want, and it IS their choice.

so you are pro-abortion then?

[windcatcher 0]

No, I am pro-life. What am I saying, is God gave people a free will, and of course human beings will act selfish. But it's a CHOICE to be selfish, no one is making you.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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No, I am pro-life. What am I saying, is God gave people a free will, and of course human beings will act selfish. But it's a CHOICE to be selfish, no one is making you.

So why take certain choices away from them?

[lisamariewillbe 1]

If a persons choice interferres with another persons right to live it no longer becomes a choice. A persons choice just like their rights are not a privledge once it infrindges with anothers wellbeing

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If a persons choice interferres with another persons right to live it no longer becomes a choice.

So, you agree that parents who refuse treatment for their children because "God will take care of them", or "it is God's Will" should be forced to allow their children to be treated?

[PLFXpert 0]

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If a persons choice interferres with another persons right to live it no longer becomes a choice.

The fallacy in this argument is obviously science vs. religion. Science would argue there is no such interference b/c until a certain point there is no such "person". Religion would argue if that in question has the potential/probability to be such then it is equally important.

I also believe in God and thus we both have a common religious belief. The difference is how we interpret what His will is.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Yes , that is where the problem lies. When is human life just that, human life?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[PLFXpert 0]

That is one problem for many.

The other problem some people have is not your feeling the way you do--I personally believe you likely have a good heart and your decision on the subject comes from a good place--but, you're imposing that unto others (by being pro-life) & making a decision for them, whereas they might also be coming from a good place, but have an opposite view as you.

Being pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't believe in God, or doesn't value life, etc. It can simply mean that person doesn't want to impose their personal views unto others by trying to take away another's right.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

And people who are pro-choice are imposing their views on others as well. Being pro-life doesnt mean Im going to set doctors offices on fire, it just means that if a woman confided in me that she was about to have an abortion and it was for ANY reason besides birth control I would do what I could to help her NOT have one and if she had one I would do anything I could to help her in the grieving if needed.

I also do not walk around protesting abortion and / or clinics. Nor do I have a conversation about abortion often, I avoid talking about certain subjects because people can talk till they are blue in the face but when it comes down to it we all have our personal beliefs for a reason and more often then not the disagreements get no where.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[PLFXpert 0]

It sounds as if you don't understand what it means to be "pro-life" or "pro-choice".

"Pro-life" and "Pro-Choice" are political views; I.E. how you vote. If the pro-lifers won the vote (should there be one), abortion would cease to be an option for anyone.

Pro-choice is not, as you mentioned, imposing one's views unto you, b/c (should they win the vote) you still have the freedom to make your own choice; the choice never to have an abortion and attempt to "help" those who confide in you to choose otherwise as well.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Pro-choice means that someone has the ability to in my opinion commit murder, it is not political it is personal. Pro-choice is accepting another persons ability to cease a human life within the law. Since it is not illigal to commit abortion, it is not up to me to condemn someone nor would I even if it were illigal. I dont imagine the abortion decsion is an easy one.

Someone who is pro-choice feels it is "my body my rights" , and that no one should allow someone to decide what to do to their body. Someone who is pro-life feels that just as I can not go out today and kill someone, neither can a woman kill her offspring because it is a life. A life that isnt getting the right to choose, nor the right to live.

A woman is able to make a decsion for a child, and for the father of a child, not just for herself.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[stoneycase 0]

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Pro-choice means that someone has the ability to in my opinion commit murder, it is not political it is personal. Pro-choice is accepting another persons ability to cease a human life within the law.

I'm sorry, but that is one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard in awhile from a rational person about the term "Pro-Choice"

I'd just like to repeat something that Wendy said that will hopefully highlight why I think this is ridiculous:

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Some people do not have the physical, intellectual or emotional equipment for some of what they get thrown into, or throw themselves into.

I find your belief that "He doesnt give us more then we can handle, but sometimes he gives us more then we want to handle" to be naieve and un-realistic. This is a pretty big world we live in, with a rather large amount of "variety". Stating that all of us will never have "more than we can handle" seems completely irrational. If that were true, there would be no need for friends/family/support groups - we'd all be trucking along quite fine on our own. But we aren't. And we will never will be. People need options in this world and in their life. They don't need to be called murderer's for making a tough decision in an impossible situation. (such as this hypothetical).

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[pop 0]

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I'm sorry, but knowingly bringing someone into this world to fight an uphill battle the rest of their lives is just wrong, selfish and self serving,despite the fancy theories and wordsmithing PC shit,,

What you said

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[lisamariewillbe 1]

If I changed it to manslaughter would that be a bit more approapiate for my feelings without being to harsh, considering the people I know and respect even though they in fact have choosen to abort a baby in their life? Having sex is a choice (usually), there is always a chance to have a baby if one chooses to have sex, and when having babies, there is always a chance it isnt perfect. We are not God, we do not have the authority to end someone elses life.

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"He doesnt give us more then we can handle, but sometimes he gives us more then we want to handle" to be naieve and un-realistic.

Its not , how many people do you know that have sat by and said "I have hit rock bottom..." and then some time later have a better life? Because they got through it, doesnt matter what brought them through it (as long as it is legal and moral). God doesnt say we have to go it alone, as a matter a fact, its through him, and our personal support systems that we get through life. Life isnt fair, and we were never promised it would be. No one is alone, some people choose to give up and commit suicide, does that mean that God gave them more then they could handle? Im not positive, all I can think is that they didnt take the time to see tomorrow, and gave up because it is easier.

Take a cancer patient for instence. Alot of cancers do not cause pain, they have few to no symptoms. And left untreated it causes death. Yet the treatment to cure this disease causes pain, it hurts and unless someone has gone through cancer treatment you will not understand just how bad it hurts. Throughout treatment they (patients) would sometimes rather stop treatment and just let the cancer take its course, because after all ... the cancer didnt hurt. Most patients do not stop though. They suffer, they lose their hair, and eyebrows, they suffer at peoples stares, they lose friends, they lose weight, and they lose the ability to see outside of tomorrow. All in the hopes that eventually the more painful aspect will give them more time to be here and experience life. They handle it.

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People need options in this world and in their life

There are always options besides death.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[stoneycase 0]

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If I changed it to manslaughter would that be a bit more approapiate for my feelings without being to harsh, considering the people I know and respect even though they in fact have choosen to abort a baby in their life?

No, you are insinuating (sp?) that the person has committed a violent crime. Get off your high horse and remember that not everyone is you, or has your "values".

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Its not , how many people do you know that have sat by and said "I have hit rock bottom..." and then some time later have a better life?

I'm not talking about my alcoholic uncle here. I'm talking about someone having a child (who has severe health problems) who can not possibly deal with what the future will hold for them and the child. Your analogy is weak and hypothesizes that everyone is constantly "moving up" in the 'ladder' of life. Many, many, many people do nothing but move down the ladder, all their lives.

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doesnt say we have to go it alone, as a matter a fact, its through him, and our personal support systems that we get through life.

God does not help me get thorugh my life. He is not my personal support system. I am just one person in this world, and there are many. Is your statement true for all people? No. In the real world, the world that exsists every minute of every day on every square inch of this space, people get through life whatever way they can Unfortunately there are a large portion of people in this world that don't benefit from paved streets and strip malls like you and I do...

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Life isnt fair, and we were never promised it would be. Life also is not planned to the last minute detail. No one is alone, some people choose to give up and commit suicide, does that mean that God gave them more then they could handle?

Your question makes no sense to me. People commit suicide for all kinds of reasons. I'm not so sure it has everything to do with "too much to handle" especially since we've already determined that "too much" for one person is "not enough" for another...

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Im not positive, all I can think is that they didnt take the time to see tomorrow, and gave up because it is easier.

I don't pretend to know what is going on in people's heads. This is one of the reasons I'm not going to sit here and call someone a murderer or 'manslaughter-er' (oo a made-up word!) for choosing to terminate a pregnancy. Since you realize you can't possibly know what's going on in someone's head, and we can extrapolate that to the fact that you don't know "everyone" and their "situation" why do you feel it neccessary to tell them how to live and/or make decisions? If you lack the required information (who they are, whats in their mind, and what's their situation) to make an informed decision on what is best for them (and the pregnancy) - how can you criticize their choice?

The example about the cancer patient doesn't track for me. In this hypothetical we are affecting the life another (or future 'another') - the child. The cancer patient is only affecting their own life. Their decision to quit the treatment, or continue does not do the same amount of damage that a mothers decision would do with a child.

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There are always options besides death.

Death is one of the most natural and regular occurrences on this planet. Everyday, everywhere we see it. In plants, animals, and humans. For some reason you associate the term Pro-Choice with death. I, on the other hand, associate it with Life. Bringing a child into this world with severe health problems, when you are not equipped or motivated to handle them seems wrong to me. You negatively affect the life of this child. If you really had the spine, you'd end the pregnancy and say something on behalf of the life you saved - the life of a child that would go through life with pain and frustration.

I'm sorry that not every 'health problematic' or disadvantaged person will have your brothers life. Wandering around thinking that "wonderful things" are in store for every child that is born into this world (especially a child with severe health problems) is not logical. Simple probability and statistics will show you that your brother is the exception, and certainly not the rule.

I'll say it again, people need choices in this world and in this life. You've already admitted that you can't know what's going on inside someone's head. I've illustrated to you that because of this, you should understand that you can't make informed decisions for everyone - especially in regards to a pregnancy. I'm sure you still believe that your values are correct and that each life is 'precious'

Good luck to you in your crusade. For every one peson whom you talk to about this, I will do my best to talk to another and show them that you are criticizing their choices blindly and naievely. Understanding and open-minds are the way to move forward. Pro-Choice = Manslaughter does nothing for anyone. It only serves to ridicule and criticize where you should be focusing on listening and accepting.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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committed a violent crime

Ever seen how they do an abortion?

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Get off your high horse and remember that not everyone is you, or has your "values".

While I get off mine, Ill pull the steps from beside your horse. My value is no one dies at anothers hands.

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(who has severe health problems) who can not possibly deal with what the future will hold for them and the child.

And no doctor can give any parent a for sure on how severe the medical disorder is. Esp things like Downs. Doctors are often wrong also.

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Since you realize you can't possibly know what's going on in someone's head, and we can extrapolate that to the fact that you don't know "everyone" and their "situation" why do you feel it neccessary to tell them how to live and/or make decisions?

I dont ever see a reason to end a human life, regardless of situations. I havent told anyone how to live, I just give my opinion cause people in this thread are directing questions to me.

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how can you criticize their choice?

Because as humans we either accept or we dont. I dont accept death by someone elses hands.

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The cancer patient is only affecting their own life. Their decision to quit the treatment, or continue does not do the same amount of damage that a mothers decision would do with a child.

No her decision completly ends a life. No damage there huh

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I'm sorry that not every 'health problematic' or disadvantaged person will have your brothers life

Sorry my brother was murdered. Try again.

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I'm sure you still believe that your values are correct and that each life is 'precious'

No but no one deserves to be murdered.

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Understanding and open-minds are the way to move forward

I am not open minded or understanding of a person taking another persons life.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[skydyvr 0]

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I never said I was judging you. I did say I was tired of hearing your opinion shoved down others throats.

Then don't read them.

Quit replying to my posts.. and I wont. I dont spend nearly as much time on this site as I used to and I'm not a premier member anymore because of all of the bullshit. The majority of it comes from about 5 people.

The meaning of your reply escapes me. Looking at the possible contexts:

1. You replied to her first. Then, later, you said you were tired of hearing her "shoving her views down others throats".

2. I've never replied to any of your posts (that I recall).

Was there another context I missed?

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Its OK to say this stuff in speakers corner right?

Yep, and it's perfectly OK to skip past the writings of people who's opinions you don't like. That was my suggestion to you.

. . =(_8^(1)