Life without children?

[shropshire 0]

Might not want kids.... but you've still got to practise

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[micro 0]

as with most topics, there are good motives for having kids and bad motives for having kids. there are, on the other side of the coin, good motives for not wanting kids and bad motives for not wanting kids.

doesn't it really go back to this question? "What is marriage for?" I'm frazing (alternative spelling alert!) it this way since it's traditionally in the context of marriage that people actually choose to have kids.

i don't think there's any doubt (well, there probably is on here though) that most would agree that one of the fundamental ends of marriage is the begetting of children. however, as has been said, there are many valid reasons why a couple would choose NOT to have kids and they shouldn't be judged for that. Maybe their background WAS frought with tragedy and violence and abuse and the prospect of bringing that up through the raising kids is too much for them. Or, they may fear that the world is just too evil to bring kids into it. I think that's a bit skewed, but it's their decision to make, not mine.

That having been said, if a couple doesn't want kids just because it would f*ck up their recreational lifestyle, sorry folks, but that's selfish in my opinion. Probably better they DIDN"T have kids, at least at this time, lest the kids suffer at the hands of "more important" material possessions.

On the side of people wanting kids, same story... far too often it is seen that a couple - or perhaps just one side of the couple - wants kids for the wrong reasons... either to help "fix" a failing marriage or b/c they want that "perfect family" of one boy, one girl, a dog and a house in the burbs. Kids aren't possessions, they're human beings. They should be desired for that reason and that reason only, b/c of the good they have in and of themselves, intrinsically!

All this to say... many of you know my wife and I have 4 kids. We would very much like to have more. Many here think that's crazy and would likely be the same ones who don't want aspersions cast upon them for NOT wanting children. So if YOU want to have YOUR choice, we want ours too. It's not an uncommon occurance at all for people to make underhanded, insulting comments to us about our "choices" regarding the size of our family.

For example, I was in my company's North American headquarters a couple of weeks ago and one of my superiors and I were talking about kids and she asked how many I have. When she heard me say that I had 4 kids, she said, "you and your wife are slow learners, aren't you." The insult is quite obvious, isn't it. As if no "smart" person, no person w/ average intelligence would actually CHOOSE to subject themselves to the tortures of having (gasp!) FOUR CHILDREN! My reply was, "oh quite the contrary, we learn very quickly! We found out early on that we enjoy both the cause and the effect and we intend to keep going!"

I guess it goes both ways, doesn't it. People judging others characters for the choices they make in life. While it is certainly true that some choices are wrong, we don't often know why people do what they do and we certainly shouldn't be looking down their noses for why they may do what they do.

For me, my wife and I will continue to try and have a large family. That is our love, that is our joy. Having children has been the best part of my life thus far. My life has never been so enriched as it is now. I've travelled the world, jumped from planes, climbed mountains, and met popes - two of them. Nothing is like being a parent. But that's just me.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Andy9o8 2]

Many thoughtful posts here.

As a father of 2 teenage kids, I can say that having kids is, simultaneously, indescribably enriching and shockingly impoverishing - the former in the metaphysical sense, the latter very much in the literal sense. You fellow parents out there know exactly what I mean.

There's absolutely nothing selfish about either wanting kids or not wanting kids.

One thing I do wish - this may be a little off topic - is that people who don't have kids of their own would shut the hell up with their opinions on how to raise children, or "kids these days", or "parents these days". I don't care if you're an elementary school teacher, a child psychologist, whatever, there's no substitute for being a parent yourself, and if you haven't been, shut up and listen to your instructors - us.

[christelsabine 1]

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Many thoughtful posts here.
....
there's no substitute for being a parent yourself, and if you haven't been, shut up and listen to your instructors - us.

Without any limitations, a big fat YES.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[TrophyHusband 0]

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That having been said, if a couple doesn't want kids just because it would f*ck up their recreational lifestyle, sorry folks, but that's selfish in my opinion.

while i respect this comment as your opinion, i whole-heartedly disagree. why should someone give up their recreational lifestyle for children if they don't want to? who are they being selfish to? in order to be selfish there has to be someone that you have put yourself in front of.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[micro 0]

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That having been said, if a couple doesn't want kids just because it would f*ck up their recreational lifestyle, sorry folks, but that's selfish in my opinion.

while i respect this comment as your opinion, i whole-heartedly disagree. why should someone give up their recreational lifestyle for children if they don't want to? who are they being selfish to? in order to be selfish there has to be someone that you have put yourself in front of.

IMO, I would say they are being selfish to themselves and their spouse. But again, it has to do with how we define marriage and what we believe its purpose is. If you have kids, then hopefully you know how they fulfill a marriage, how they bring a marriage to a sort of fruition. They embellish it and embue it with so much more life and vitality that the relationship otherwise wouldn't have. To deny oneself and the spouse of that great gift JUST for the sake of the pursuit of fleeting recreational pleasure, to me, is the height of selfishness.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Dolph 0]

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All this to say... many of you know my wife and I have 4 kids. We would very much like to have more.

Well if you're gonna have kids, at least think about the kids. I have three siblings (so, grew up in same family unit type as you have) and I wouldn't trade that for anything. Siblings kicks so much ass it's ridiculous, especially after all the stupid teenage years shit is over with. Good on you I say - your kids will appreciate this when they get over the fight-all-the-time years
I disagree with:

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That having been said, if a couple doesn't want kids just because it would f*ck up their recreational lifestyle, sorry folks, but that's selfish in my opinion.

This is the same type of "underhanded comment" you talk a little later about that us no-kids people experience all the time. As if there's something wrong with us. The standard is to have one or two kids. So I fall outside the standard, as do you and your wife. Yet you take a jab at me. Go kick the 1-2 kids parents ass instead and don't bring your beef with them to me and others in the same position as me.

Explain how this is selfish - who is hurt by their decision? The kid - what kid? Society in general? How? It's much better than wanting to have the cake and eat it too.

My recreational lifestyle involves a good deal of people beside myself - to more or less dump these people because I want kids, now that would be selfish in this context.

I honestly don't get it Micro - you then move on to say

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I guess it goes both ways, doesn't it. People judging others characters for the choices they make in life. While it is certainly true that some choices are wrong, we don't often know why people do what they do and we certainly shouldn't be looking down their noses for why they may do what they do.

Well then don't call my decision selfish! You obviously know enough to know you shouldn't look down on kid-less people. Yet with your comment, that is *exactly* the sentiment you express.

[Squeak 17]

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Many thoughtful posts here.
....
there's no substitute for being a parent yourself, and if you haven't been, shut up and listen to your instructors - us.

Without any limitations, a big fat YES.

To both of you I say BOLLOCKS and NO way.
I have no kids and dont want kids, and have had surgery to prevent it from happening accidently.
I'm also I high school teacher of "at risk" kids, and let me tell you the VAST majority of parents I deal wth have absolutely NO CLUE on how to raise kids, I would take nothing from them on the subject of parenting although purhaps "what not to do"

There are FAR FAR too many people who have procreated and have either no clue or no desire to be parents, and yet there they sit with offpring abounding.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[shropshire 0]

Yeap I agree.... just because you've done something doesn't mean that you can teach it... Thinking like that is arogant bollox.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Zenister 0]

no desire whatsoever.

any two fools can create another life, and somehow convince themselves they've done something 'special'.

honestly there are enough unwanted children in the world..

I tend to look at those who continue to spawn in the same light as those who buy pets from breeders.. when the pound is overflowing everyday....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Andy9o8 2]

I understand your point, Squeak. I'm not saying that being a parent automatically makes you qualified to give good parenting advice. I worked for several years with inner-city criminal defendants, in both adult and juvenile courts, many of whom were born to teenage parents and became teenage parents; they were most certainly "at risk" kids. No, of course I wouldn't take parenting advice from them, or from their parents.

But I still find - anectdotally in my own life - that parents give better - more insightful - parenting advice than non-parents.
Just one example (out of many): One very good friend of my wife's and mine is a woman in her 40's who has no kids. She is a teacher to middle school (6th, 7th & 8th grade) kids (a tough age group to teach). She's a superb teacher because she relates so well to the kids. Yet when she tries to give us (usually unsolicited) advice on how to deal with our own kids, you can just tell that some of the weaknesses of her advice result from her own non-parenting naivete. So, while I acknowledge your point, I stand by mine, as well.

[shropshire 0]

Marriage/partnership is not only about having kids.

Our marriage is about being with the person that I love and want to spend my life with. If kids had come along, then they may have added to our lives but we do not feel that we've missed out, by any means.

Each to their own.
.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[micro 0]

well dolph, as I said in my posts here, this is all my opinion. if you don't agree with it, then you don't agree with it. I stand by my remarks and again state it's my view that marriage is DESIGNED for the creation of a family. The question shouldn't be, IMO, "why should we have kids" but rather, "why shouldn't we have kids?" If the answer is just that you want to spend your life playing, I hope you'll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing that as anything but shallow. Remember, I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence. I've had the recreational life and compared to having a family, it is sorely lacking.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

I have an Aunt and Uncle that have no kids, they are in their mid 70's. They are very alone and feel as such. I think that if I were to ask them now if they are happy with the choice they made all those years ago, their answer would be no. I have also family friends that are much older now and the look in their eyes when they see a child is heart break. I have never witnessed someone that did not have kids happy in their old age. I guess one way to view having kids is that when the parent does get older and needs help in different areas of life, yes this may seem selfish, that your children are there to help you. Lets face it, we want to be surrounded by people who love us, who care about us, want what is best for us, what better way to insure that by having kids. Yes, I know, I know that is no guarantee, but it is a pretty good bet that it will work out in the long run. Children bring so much joy to ones life. Plus it is a great way to make sure that your heritage lives on.

Granted that is not to say those who don't have kids aren't happy, I am sure there are alot that are. This opinion is from personal experience and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[micro 0]

you raise a very good point... of course there will be those who argue that there are plenty of parents whose kids are unhappy and one shouldn't have kids in hopes that you're surrounded by loved ones when you are dying...

still, these detractors won't negate the value of your post. and that brings another related point... one of Legacy... what legacy will you be leaving if you are a childless couple? It's an important question I think.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[shropshire 0]

It is an import question.... who is going to shove you into an old folks home

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[micro 0]

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It is an import question.... who is going to shove you into an old folks home

See, my stategy all along has been to have the wife-unit squeeze as many puppies out as possible. The way I see it, I'm bound to screw up w/ some of the kids. By having many of them, I'm just hedging my bets that I'll have at least ONE of them to take care of me when I'm old and back in diapers instead of locking me away in a nursing home.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[shropshire 0]

Well, it's a strategy..... or sorts

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

"It's an important question I think"

Very important! I agree. Even if you have vasts amount of money, power, a huge corporation, whats the point if there is no one to leave it to. You worked so hard for what? Yes, maybe you made the community or even the world a better place, but in a few years you will have been forgotten. If you look at it for another stand point, who will carry on "the family name?" Without kids, your life will just be a "blip" in the whole scheme of things. Legacy is very important. With me having kids, my hope is to have them be a better person then I was, to try things in life that I may never have the opportunity to try or do. To just be better then I am/was. Kids to me mean not living my life in vain.

IMO

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

Lets face it...who wants to fucking die all alone? Not me! Who wants to be alone when your spouse dies and there is no one in your life. Thats the way it is with my Aunt and Uncle. They have no one. Sure they have nieces and nephews, but our concern is for our parents and then them as heartless as that sounds.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[shropshire 0]

Where there's a Will, there's a way.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

Yeah I agree, but who are you going to leave it all to? I mean the friends that you have are all going to kick the bucket about the same time you are.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[kallend 2,070]

Not having children deliberately strikes me as being like a defector in Prisoner's Dilemma.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[micro 0]

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Lets face it...who wants to fucking die all alone? Not me! Who wants to be alone when your spouse dies and there is no one in your life. Thats the way it is with my Aunt and Uncle. They have no one. Sure they have nieces and nephews, but our concern is for our parents and then them as heartless as that sounds.

Bobbi

Well, someone could make the (valid) point that in this context alone, having kids would be an extremely selfish thing, just so that you are not alone... as if it is only about you... but I get what you're saying I think, that this is not THE only reason for having kids but rather it is a secondary (albeit an important) reason.

as I said in an earlier post, children embue married life. I don't think there is any more sublime way to say I love you to your spouse than to actually want to create another "them," some sort of almagamation of the two of you, yet a third person, unique and unrepeatable in their own real way.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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Not having children deliberately strikes me as being like a defector in Prisoner's Dilemma.

can you elaborate? i'm not familiar w/ your reference.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...