SkydiveStMarys 0 #51 August 19, 2006 I agree with you that out of a marriage, children are a likely outcome. You love each, you want to express your love, what better way then to "create" something out of that bond and love that you have for each other. Yeah I guess what I posted about not wanting to die alone sounds somewhat selfish. But I think part of that feeling of "not wanting to be alone" is human nature. I mean thats one reason why some get married is that they want to share their life with a another human being. Is that selfish? No. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,070 #52 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuote Not having children deliberately strikes me as being like a defector in Prisoner's Dilemma. can you elaborate? i'm not familiar w/ your reference. pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html Clearly our society needs a steady influx of children, both to replace members who die, and to become producers of goods and services when the current producers get too old.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #53 August 19, 2006 Quoteyou raise a very good point... of course there will be those who argue that there are plenty of parents whose kids are unhappy and one shouldn't have kids in hopes that you're surrounded by loved ones when you are dying... still, these detractors won't negate the value of your post. and that brings another related point... one of Legacy... what legacy will you be leaving if you are a childless couple? It's an important question I think. What sanctimonious crap, just because I have no offspring does not me I have no legacy. As to the point of lonely older people, my plan is (and This was a considered thing) when I'm older if I feel the need to play granpop, I'll join adopt a Granny, or some other such program. Moreover I have nieces and nephews who some of which will no doubt produce something resembling small humansYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #54 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteI don't think there is any more sublime way to say I love you to your spouse than to actually want to create another "them," some sort of almagamation of the two of you, yet a third person, unique and unrepeatable in their own real way. That there is probably the scariest thing I've read in this entire thread, if thats how you very offspringYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveStMarys 0 #55 August 19, 2006 I guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #56 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteyou raise a very good point... of course there will be those who argue that there are plenty of parents whose kids are unhappy and one shouldn't have kids in hopes that you're surrounded by loved ones when you are dying... still, these detractors won't negate the value of your post. and that brings another related point... one of Legacy... what legacy will you be leaving if you are a childless couple? It's an important question I think. What sanctimonious crap, just because I have no offspring does not me I have no legacy. As to the point of lonely older people, my plan is (and This was a considered thing) when I'm older if I feel the need to play granpop, I'll join adopt a Granny, or some other such program. Moreover I have nieces and nephews who some of which will no doubt produce something resembling small humans Why am I not surprised to see that you have missed the point? Just a couple notes... you can indeed leave a "legacy" if you are childless. Unfortunately, it will likely be difused and probably not of much note. But again, you have sort of missed the point. YOUR specific legacy, squeak, may be different since, as I've mentioned earlier, I find your profession highly praiseworthy (in spite of you thinking I'm full of "sanctimonious crap" ) As for what I bolded in your post, what the hell do you think they'll have if not human beings, tadpoles? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDane 0 #57 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I never understood why it is so important to be remembered? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #58 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI don't think there is any more sublime way to say I love you to your spouse than to actually want to create another "them," some sort of almagamation of the two of you, yet a third person, unique and unrepeatable in their own real way. That there is probably the scariest thing I've read in this entire thread, if thats how you very offspring Why exactly is this scary? I see my wife as a very beautiful woman who is full of virtue and gifts. And I know that the world will be a much better place with more people like her in it. You find that sentiment scary? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveStMarys 0 #59 August 19, 2006 Great question. I wish I knew the answer. Just an initial thought would be, whats the point of living a life to the fullest if no one is going to remember you. I am not talking remember on a grand scale (like Bill Gates), just remember. I guess remembering must be important, they teach it in schools all over the world, its called history class. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #60 August 19, 2006 I have a solution, no more children, they are worthless and we dont need them polluting our earth. Women put down your wombs and lets see how long the human race will last Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #61 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I'm not so self serving as to think I need to be remembered. And micheal, the reference to the resembling small humans is because at the age they are now, they only slighly resemble feral humans, I'm not entirely certain that their offspring will not be genetically removed from the Homo sapien liniageYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #62 August 19, 2006 QuoteI have a solution, no more children, they are worthless and we dont need them polluting our earth. Women put down your wombs and lets see how long the human race will last The BEST adivce I've seen so far, Humans are a global Virus and need to be controled betterYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #63 August 19, 2006 ummmm okay ... then in ohhhh 70 years... what is there? Nothing but an earth full of animals and no one around to eat themSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #64 August 19, 2006 Quoteummmm okay ... then in ohhhh 70 years... what is there? Nothing but an earth full of animals and no one around to eat them Then the Vegans will look down from upon high,( probably sitting next to your God) and they will be Proud You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDane 0 #65 August 19, 2006 History happens to be one of my favorites subjects. That's not the point. Why is it so important that people will remember YOU? And LM, I'm not putting parents down. I think children are wonderful (even though I'm not particular keen on getting any myself). I just don't understand the argument: I want to be remembered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveStMarys 0 #66 August 19, 2006 I don't think its self serving. You remember last week? It is what it is. If you have a mind and a brain your gonna remember. I guess it comes down to if you care what people think about you, and its gonna happen, do you want people to think you were a good person? I do. My kids will carry that on into the future. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #67 August 19, 2006 QuoteI don't think its self serving. You remember last week? It is what it is. If you have a mind and a brain your gonna remember. I guess it comes down to if you care what people think about you, and its gonna happen, do you want people to think you were a good person? I do. My kids will carry that on into the future. Bobbi So what if they do, the likely hood of them passing you down as a memory past one genration is pretty bloody small, then you are just as insignificant as me with no offsring. And why the hell do I give a toss, I'm dead, and if I'm sitting somewhere going dam no one rmemebrs me, well then I'll look pretty silly wont I... But that's a chance I'm well prepared to takeAnd yes it IS self serving, what else do you call it if your concern is you'll be fogotten? That's an inevitablitiy, you WILL be fogotten... Who are you again?You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #68 August 19, 2006 <> - I think that I used to know the answer to that . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #69 August 19, 2006 I applaude your position. I find it amusing that some parents find it "wrong" to not desire children. "How could you possibly not want children? There must be something wrong with you boy." The reasons given for having children is.... - Legacy - Companionship - Fullfillment of marriage/family Strangely, I expected something more like.... - The absolute most selfless act one can do is give someone else LIFE. Think about it. How happy are you that your parents did the dirty and you are a result of that?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #70 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I'm not so self serving as to think I need to be remembered. And micheal, the reference to the resembling small humans is because at the age they are now, they only slighly resemble feral humans, I'm not entirely certain that their offspring will not be genetically removed from the Homo sapien liniage Feral humans. That's an interesting phrase, one that, for some, may be apt for the little ones that we are speaking about here. I think we're starting to uncover the fundamental difference -b/t your views and mine, and between some "camps" in this thread- in how we define not only the meaning of marriage and family, but the meaning of human life and the existance thereof. It's a shame, I think, that far too many parents are doing a piss-poor job of raising their kids which only goes to reinforce those who don't want children that their decision was well founded. You would only need 5 minutes w/ my sister-in-law's kids to prove that very point. They are "feral" indeed, to a fair-the-well. In fact, I dread my kids even being around them b/c of the influence those heathen demon children may have on my kids. I think those parents are stuck in the mode of "raising kids" instead of "raising adults." They shuffle the kids off to school, and when they are home from school, the put them in endless activities or pop in the latest video to placate the kids while the parents anesthetize themselves w/ the latest fads. It's really quite sad. We refuse to do this. We don't watch TV. We homeschool. Our kids are active in reading classics and in healthy physical activities. They love to be around each other and us. Is it a perfect existence? Hardly, for there is still that vestige of "feral-ness" in them that needs to be exices. The working out of vice and the working in of virtue, whatever you want to say. I think that if more parents took their jobs seriously and tried to raise their kids well instead of just trying to bide their time, thinking that somehow the kids will raise themselves while the parents"babysat" them, those who do NOT want kids might think differently... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveStMarys 0 #71 August 19, 2006 I won't be completely forgotten, my name will be carried on, so will my blood line. I am not really stuck on being forgotten or being remembered, it is just something that won't be a choice because I had kids. For me, family is very important. I have pictures of my grandparents all over and pics of my great grandparents out too. I have sat down and talked about them and told my kids stories of when I was little and the things that I used to do with these generations that have past. I am by no means stating that deciding to have or not to have kids is wrong. It is a very personal choice. One that can only be made by that individual. Is being self serving or selfish a bad thing all the time. I don't think so. I wouldn't say sex on a regular basis or masturbating is wrong and both are pretty self serving. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #72 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. Into which future, please? When I'm dead, I'm gone. My kids and grand kids surely will keep some memory about their parents/grand partents but, all I want is to show my kids a way into THEIR future, if possible with a little help. I am no more counting once I'm gone. And that is normal, IMO. I'm a happy mom and enjoy what I "produced" but, am fully aware that my offspring is not my property, I gave birth to them, let them live and what they do with their life is simply their own biz once their standing on own feet. Yes, I have a lovely family with a lot of members - yet, my dead grandparents (only 1 grandpa is still alive) are no more actual part of my present life. They're dead since so many years, I enjoy watching old pics from time to time and have some fine memories - that's it. My and my family's life is right NOW. If my offspring ever will have own kids, it surely is the same: The time of the "oldies" is over one day, that's it. Keep a loving memory and move on. My kids do not need to carry my "future" into their own. The world's turning, right? Not one of my kids or (perhaps one day) grandkids needs to hang my pic on the wall and think about my every day. That's MHO. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dolph 0 #73 August 19, 2006 Quotewell dolph, as I said in my posts here, this is all my opinion. if you don't agree with it, then you don't agree with it. I stand by my remarks and again state it's my view that marriage is DESIGNED for the creation of a family. The question shouldn't be, IMO, "why should we have kids" but rather, "why shouldn't we have kids?" If the answer is just that you want to spend your life playing, I hope you'll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing that as anything but shallow. Remember, I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence. I've had the recreational life and compared to having a family, it is sorely lacking. Hey Micro. My issue was not your stated purpose of marriage. What srtuck me as odd was that you on one hand rightfully pointed out that with many kids, people point fingers at you. You stated we should be more openminded and less judgmental. But earlier in your post you showed a lack of understanding of this principle - looking down not on the people who usually comment on large families, but rather on people who have no kids. There are a good number of reasons not to have kids - one is to focus on one's own life - and the friends and family already in place. Another is not to bring a human being into the world unless one is ready to go 100% for this person. Career issues might be a reason. Infertility. A moral judgment that bringing humans into a world of suffering is wrong can be a yet another. And so forth. You come off as a bit of a righteous bastard who hold an opinion that those for whatever reason elect to live different than you with regards to kids are selfish and shallow. Of course I'll forgive ya for it - just pointing it out bro. Some people might be hurt or be pissed off by such comment in the same way that comments regarding your number of kids hurt you or your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #74 August 19, 2006 I don't think anybody should have to have children. And God only knows, some people should never even think about having children. But that said & done, I think couples who don't have kids are missing out on the biggest part of life. I know plenty of singles and couples my age who went kidless and make cushy incomes (the justly hated DINKs - Double Income, No Kids). They're nice enough people and a few of them are some of my best friends. But their focus on life is that of aging children. They have all the best toys, best cars, and take the best vacations. In our sport they're the ones who own two or three rigs and couldn't pack a one of them if their lives depended on it, because they pay a packer while they're off playing at whorehouse prices in the wind tunnel. Maybe JUST a tinge of jealousy in that, but that's only bwecause they rub it in by insisting I should jump more often and play in the tunnel like they do. The morning our first kid was born, I looked at this little naked baby and realized I wasn't a kid anymore, that I was an adult and it was her turn to be the kid and my job to be a dad. Having kids has more ups and downs, rewards and frustrations than anything else I can think of. But it completes you as a human being and that's something more toys will never do. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #75 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuotewell dolph, as I said in my posts here, this is all my opinion. if you don't agree with it, then you don't agree with it. I stand by my remarks and again state it's my view that marriage is DESIGNED for the creation of a family. The question shouldn't be, IMO, "why should we have kids" but rather, "why shouldn't we have kids?" If the answer is just that you want to spend your life playing, I hope you'll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing that as anything but shallow. Remember, I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence. I've had the recreational life and compared to having a family, it is sorely lacking. Hey Micro. My issue was not your stated purpose of marriage. What srtuck me as odd was that you on one hand rightfully pointed out that with many kids, people point fingers at you. You stated we should be more openminded and less judgmental. But earlier in your post you showed a lack of understanding of this principle - looking down not on the people who usually comment on large families, but rather on people who have no kids. There are a good number of reasons not to have kids - one is to focus on one's own life - and the friends and family already in place. Another is not to bring a human being into the world unless one is ready to go 100% for this person. Career issues might be a reason. Infertility. A moral judgment that bringing humans into a world of suffering is wrong can be a yet another. And so forth. You come off as a bit of a righteous bastard who hold an opinion that those for whatever reason elect to live different than you with regards to kids are selfish and shallow. Of course I'll forgive ya for it - just pointing it out bro. Some people might be hurt or be pissed off by such comment in the same way that comments regarding your number of kids hurt you or your wife. If you re-read my posts, I stated quite freely that there are many very legitimate reasons for people to NOT have kids. The reason I do not agree with is simply this: some childless couples avoid having kids b/c they want to live in a state of perpetual adolescence, wherein they think that life is simply a playground in which they should engage in whatever recreations fit their fancy at the neglect of higher callings. That, IMO, is far from a legitimate reason for avoiding having kids. That was my only "bone of contention." If that makes me a bastard as righteous bastard in your eyes, well at least you're big enough a man to forgive me. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
SkydiveStMarys 0 #55 August 19, 2006 I guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #56 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteyou raise a very good point... of course there will be those who argue that there are plenty of parents whose kids are unhappy and one shouldn't have kids in hopes that you're surrounded by loved ones when you are dying... still, these detractors won't negate the value of your post. and that brings another related point... one of Legacy... what legacy will you be leaving if you are a childless couple? It's an important question I think. What sanctimonious crap, just because I have no offspring does not me I have no legacy. As to the point of lonely older people, my plan is (and This was a considered thing) when I'm older if I feel the need to play granpop, I'll join adopt a Granny, or some other such program. Moreover I have nieces and nephews who some of which will no doubt produce something resembling small humans Why am I not surprised to see that you have missed the point? Just a couple notes... you can indeed leave a "legacy" if you are childless. Unfortunately, it will likely be difused and probably not of much note. But again, you have sort of missed the point. YOUR specific legacy, squeak, may be different since, as I've mentioned earlier, I find your profession highly praiseworthy (in spite of you thinking I'm full of "sanctimonious crap" ) As for what I bolded in your post, what the hell do you think they'll have if not human beings, tadpoles? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDane 0 #57 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I never understood why it is so important to be remembered? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #58 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI don't think there is any more sublime way to say I love you to your spouse than to actually want to create another "them," some sort of almagamation of the two of you, yet a third person, unique and unrepeatable in their own real way. That there is probably the scariest thing I've read in this entire thread, if thats how you very offspring Why exactly is this scary? I see my wife as a very beautiful woman who is full of virtue and gifts. And I know that the world will be a much better place with more people like her in it. You find that sentiment scary? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveStMarys 0 #59 August 19, 2006 Great question. I wish I knew the answer. Just an initial thought would be, whats the point of living a life to the fullest if no one is going to remember you. I am not talking remember on a grand scale (like Bill Gates), just remember. I guess remembering must be important, they teach it in schools all over the world, its called history class. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #60 August 19, 2006 I have a solution, no more children, they are worthless and we dont need them polluting our earth. Women put down your wombs and lets see how long the human race will last Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #61 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I'm not so self serving as to think I need to be remembered. And micheal, the reference to the resembling small humans is because at the age they are now, they only slighly resemble feral humans, I'm not entirely certain that their offspring will not be genetically removed from the Homo sapien liniageYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #62 August 19, 2006 QuoteI have a solution, no more children, they are worthless and we dont need them polluting our earth. Women put down your wombs and lets see how long the human race will last The BEST adivce I've seen so far, Humans are a global Virus and need to be controled betterYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #63 August 19, 2006 ummmm okay ... then in ohhhh 70 years... what is there? Nothing but an earth full of animals and no one around to eat themSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #64 August 19, 2006 Quoteummmm okay ... then in ohhhh 70 years... what is there? Nothing but an earth full of animals and no one around to eat them Then the Vegans will look down from upon high,( probably sitting next to your God) and they will be Proud You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDane 0 #65 August 19, 2006 History happens to be one of my favorites subjects. That's not the point. Why is it so important that people will remember YOU? And LM, I'm not putting parents down. I think children are wonderful (even though I'm not particular keen on getting any myself). I just don't understand the argument: I want to be remembered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveStMarys 0 #66 August 19, 2006 I don't think its self serving. You remember last week? It is what it is. If you have a mind and a brain your gonna remember. I guess it comes down to if you care what people think about you, and its gonna happen, do you want people to think you were a good person? I do. My kids will carry that on into the future. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #67 August 19, 2006 QuoteI don't think its self serving. You remember last week? It is what it is. If you have a mind and a brain your gonna remember. I guess it comes down to if you care what people think about you, and its gonna happen, do you want people to think you were a good person? I do. My kids will carry that on into the future. Bobbi So what if they do, the likely hood of them passing you down as a memory past one genration is pretty bloody small, then you are just as insignificant as me with no offsring. And why the hell do I give a toss, I'm dead, and if I'm sitting somewhere going dam no one rmemebrs me, well then I'll look pretty silly wont I... But that's a chance I'm well prepared to takeAnd yes it IS self serving, what else do you call it if your concern is you'll be fogotten? That's an inevitablitiy, you WILL be fogotten... Who are you again?You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #68 August 19, 2006 <> - I think that I used to know the answer to that . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites downwardspiral 0 #69 August 19, 2006 I applaude your position. I find it amusing that some parents find it "wrong" to not desire children. "How could you possibly not want children? There must be something wrong with you boy." The reasons given for having children is.... - Legacy - Companionship - Fullfillment of marriage/family Strangely, I expected something more like.... - The absolute most selfless act one can do is give someone else LIFE. Think about it. How happy are you that your parents did the dirty and you are a result of that?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #70 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I'm not so self serving as to think I need to be remembered. And micheal, the reference to the resembling small humans is because at the age they are now, they only slighly resemble feral humans, I'm not entirely certain that their offspring will not be genetically removed from the Homo sapien liniage Feral humans. That's an interesting phrase, one that, for some, may be apt for the little ones that we are speaking about here. I think we're starting to uncover the fundamental difference -b/t your views and mine, and between some "camps" in this thread- in how we define not only the meaning of marriage and family, but the meaning of human life and the existance thereof. It's a shame, I think, that far too many parents are doing a piss-poor job of raising their kids which only goes to reinforce those who don't want children that their decision was well founded. You would only need 5 minutes w/ my sister-in-law's kids to prove that very point. They are "feral" indeed, to a fair-the-well. In fact, I dread my kids even being around them b/c of the influence those heathen demon children may have on my kids. I think those parents are stuck in the mode of "raising kids" instead of "raising adults." They shuffle the kids off to school, and when they are home from school, the put them in endless activities or pop in the latest video to placate the kids while the parents anesthetize themselves w/ the latest fads. It's really quite sad. We refuse to do this. We don't watch TV. We homeschool. Our kids are active in reading classics and in healthy physical activities. They love to be around each other and us. Is it a perfect existence? Hardly, for there is still that vestige of "feral-ness" in them that needs to be exices. The working out of vice and the working in of virtue, whatever you want to say. I think that if more parents took their jobs seriously and tried to raise their kids well instead of just trying to bide their time, thinking that somehow the kids will raise themselves while the parents"babysat" them, those who do NOT want kids might think differently... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveStMarys 0 #71 August 19, 2006 I won't be completely forgotten, my name will be carried on, so will my blood line. I am not really stuck on being forgotten or being remembered, it is just something that won't be a choice because I had kids. For me, family is very important. I have pictures of my grandparents all over and pics of my great grandparents out too. I have sat down and talked about them and told my kids stories of when I was little and the things that I used to do with these generations that have past. I am by no means stating that deciding to have or not to have kids is wrong. It is a very personal choice. One that can only be made by that individual. Is being self serving or selfish a bad thing all the time. I don't think so. I wouldn't say sex on a regular basis or masturbating is wrong and both are pretty self serving. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #72 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. Into which future, please? When I'm dead, I'm gone. My kids and grand kids surely will keep some memory about their parents/grand partents but, all I want is to show my kids a way into THEIR future, if possible with a little help. I am no more counting once I'm gone. And that is normal, IMO. I'm a happy mom and enjoy what I "produced" but, am fully aware that my offspring is not my property, I gave birth to them, let them live and what they do with their life is simply their own biz once their standing on own feet. Yes, I have a lovely family with a lot of members - yet, my dead grandparents (only 1 grandpa is still alive) are no more actual part of my present life. They're dead since so many years, I enjoy watching old pics from time to time and have some fine memories - that's it. My and my family's life is right NOW. If my offspring ever will have own kids, it surely is the same: The time of the "oldies" is over one day, that's it. Keep a loving memory and move on. My kids do not need to carry my "future" into their own. The world's turning, right? Not one of my kids or (perhaps one day) grandkids needs to hang my pic on the wall and think about my every day. That's MHO. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dolph 0 #73 August 19, 2006 Quotewell dolph, as I said in my posts here, this is all my opinion. if you don't agree with it, then you don't agree with it. I stand by my remarks and again state it's my view that marriage is DESIGNED for the creation of a family. The question shouldn't be, IMO, "why should we have kids" but rather, "why shouldn't we have kids?" If the answer is just that you want to spend your life playing, I hope you'll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing that as anything but shallow. Remember, I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence. I've had the recreational life and compared to having a family, it is sorely lacking. Hey Micro. My issue was not your stated purpose of marriage. What srtuck me as odd was that you on one hand rightfully pointed out that with many kids, people point fingers at you. You stated we should be more openminded and less judgmental. But earlier in your post you showed a lack of understanding of this principle - looking down not on the people who usually comment on large families, but rather on people who have no kids. There are a good number of reasons not to have kids - one is to focus on one's own life - and the friends and family already in place. Another is not to bring a human being into the world unless one is ready to go 100% for this person. Career issues might be a reason. Infertility. A moral judgment that bringing humans into a world of suffering is wrong can be a yet another. And so forth. You come off as a bit of a righteous bastard who hold an opinion that those for whatever reason elect to live different than you with regards to kids are selfish and shallow. Of course I'll forgive ya for it - just pointing it out bro. Some people might be hurt or be pissed off by such comment in the same way that comments regarding your number of kids hurt you or your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #74 August 19, 2006 I don't think anybody should have to have children. And God only knows, some people should never even think about having children. But that said & done, I think couples who don't have kids are missing out on the biggest part of life. I know plenty of singles and couples my age who went kidless and make cushy incomes (the justly hated DINKs - Double Income, No Kids). They're nice enough people and a few of them are some of my best friends. But their focus on life is that of aging children. They have all the best toys, best cars, and take the best vacations. In our sport they're the ones who own two or three rigs and couldn't pack a one of them if their lives depended on it, because they pay a packer while they're off playing at whorehouse prices in the wind tunnel. Maybe JUST a tinge of jealousy in that, but that's only bwecause they rub it in by insisting I should jump more often and play in the tunnel like they do. The morning our first kid was born, I looked at this little naked baby and realized I wasn't a kid anymore, that I was an adult and it was her turn to be the kid and my job to be a dad. Having kids has more ups and downs, rewards and frustrations than anything else I can think of. But it completes you as a human being and that's something more toys will never do. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #75 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuotewell dolph, as I said in my posts here, this is all my opinion. if you don't agree with it, then you don't agree with it. I stand by my remarks and again state it's my view that marriage is DESIGNED for the creation of a family. The question shouldn't be, IMO, "why should we have kids" but rather, "why shouldn't we have kids?" If the answer is just that you want to spend your life playing, I hope you'll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing that as anything but shallow. Remember, I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence. I've had the recreational life and compared to having a family, it is sorely lacking. Hey Micro. My issue was not your stated purpose of marriage. What srtuck me as odd was that you on one hand rightfully pointed out that with many kids, people point fingers at you. You stated we should be more openminded and less judgmental. But earlier in your post you showed a lack of understanding of this principle - looking down not on the people who usually comment on large families, but rather on people who have no kids. There are a good number of reasons not to have kids - one is to focus on one's own life - and the friends and family already in place. Another is not to bring a human being into the world unless one is ready to go 100% for this person. Career issues might be a reason. Infertility. A moral judgment that bringing humans into a world of suffering is wrong can be a yet another. And so forth. You come off as a bit of a righteous bastard who hold an opinion that those for whatever reason elect to live different than you with regards to kids are selfish and shallow. Of course I'll forgive ya for it - just pointing it out bro. Some people might be hurt or be pissed off by such comment in the same way that comments regarding your number of kids hurt you or your wife. If you re-read my posts, I stated quite freely that there are many very legitimate reasons for people to NOT have kids. The reason I do not agree with is simply this: some childless couples avoid having kids b/c they want to live in a state of perpetual adolescence, wherein they think that life is simply a playground in which they should engage in whatever recreations fit their fancy at the neglect of higher callings. That, IMO, is far from a legitimate reason for avoiding having kids. That was my only "bone of contention." If that makes me a bastard as righteous bastard in your eyes, well at least you're big enough a man to forgive me. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
SkydiveStMarys 0 #59 August 19, 2006 Great question. I wish I knew the answer. Just an initial thought would be, whats the point of living a life to the fullest if no one is going to remember you. I am not talking remember on a grand scale (like Bill Gates), just remember. I guess remembering must be important, they teach it in schools all over the world, its called history class. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #60 August 19, 2006 I have a solution, no more children, they are worthless and we dont need them polluting our earth. Women put down your wombs and lets see how long the human race will last Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #61 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I'm not so self serving as to think I need to be remembered. And micheal, the reference to the resembling small humans is because at the age they are now, they only slighly resemble feral humans, I'm not entirely certain that their offspring will not be genetically removed from the Homo sapien liniageYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #62 August 19, 2006 QuoteI have a solution, no more children, they are worthless and we dont need them polluting our earth. Women put down your wombs and lets see how long the human race will last The BEST adivce I've seen so far, Humans are a global Virus and need to be controled betterYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #63 August 19, 2006 ummmm okay ... then in ohhhh 70 years... what is there? Nothing but an earth full of animals and no one around to eat themSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #64 August 19, 2006 Quoteummmm okay ... then in ohhhh 70 years... what is there? Nothing but an earth full of animals and no one around to eat them Then the Vegans will look down from upon high,( probably sitting next to your God) and they will be Proud You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDane 0 #65 August 19, 2006 History happens to be one of my favorites subjects. That's not the point. Why is it so important that people will remember YOU? And LM, I'm not putting parents down. I think children are wonderful (even though I'm not particular keen on getting any myself). I just don't understand the argument: I want to be remembered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveStMarys 0 #66 August 19, 2006 I don't think its self serving. You remember last week? It is what it is. If you have a mind and a brain your gonna remember. I guess it comes down to if you care what people think about you, and its gonna happen, do you want people to think you were a good person? I do. My kids will carry that on into the future. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #67 August 19, 2006 QuoteI don't think its self serving. You remember last week? It is what it is. If you have a mind and a brain your gonna remember. I guess it comes down to if you care what people think about you, and its gonna happen, do you want people to think you were a good person? I do. My kids will carry that on into the future. Bobbi So what if they do, the likely hood of them passing you down as a memory past one genration is pretty bloody small, then you are just as insignificant as me with no offsring. And why the hell do I give a toss, I'm dead, and if I'm sitting somewhere going dam no one rmemebrs me, well then I'll look pretty silly wont I... But that's a chance I'm well prepared to takeAnd yes it IS self serving, what else do you call it if your concern is you'll be fogotten? That's an inevitablitiy, you WILL be fogotten... Who are you again?You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #68 August 19, 2006 <> - I think that I used to know the answer to that . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #69 August 19, 2006 I applaude your position. I find it amusing that some parents find it "wrong" to not desire children. "How could you possibly not want children? There must be something wrong with you boy." The reasons given for having children is.... - Legacy - Companionship - Fullfillment of marriage/family Strangely, I expected something more like.... - The absolute most selfless act one can do is give someone else LIFE. Think about it. How happy are you that your parents did the dirty and you are a result of that?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #70 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. IMO Bobbi I'm not so self serving as to think I need to be remembered. And micheal, the reference to the resembling small humans is because at the age they are now, they only slighly resemble feral humans, I'm not entirely certain that their offspring will not be genetically removed from the Homo sapien liniage Feral humans. That's an interesting phrase, one that, for some, may be apt for the little ones that we are speaking about here. I think we're starting to uncover the fundamental difference -b/t your views and mine, and between some "camps" in this thread- in how we define not only the meaning of marriage and family, but the meaning of human life and the existance thereof. It's a shame, I think, that far too many parents are doing a piss-poor job of raising their kids which only goes to reinforce those who don't want children that their decision was well founded. You would only need 5 minutes w/ my sister-in-law's kids to prove that very point. They are "feral" indeed, to a fair-the-well. In fact, I dread my kids even being around them b/c of the influence those heathen demon children may have on my kids. I think those parents are stuck in the mode of "raising kids" instead of "raising adults." They shuffle the kids off to school, and when they are home from school, the put them in endless activities or pop in the latest video to placate the kids while the parents anesthetize themselves w/ the latest fads. It's really quite sad. We refuse to do this. We don't watch TV. We homeschool. Our kids are active in reading classics and in healthy physical activities. They love to be around each other and us. Is it a perfect existence? Hardly, for there is still that vestige of "feral-ness" in them that needs to be exices. The working out of vice and the working in of virtue, whatever you want to say. I think that if more parents took their jobs seriously and tried to raise their kids well instead of just trying to bide their time, thinking that somehow the kids will raise themselves while the parents"babysat" them, those who do NOT want kids might think differently... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveStMarys 0 #71 August 19, 2006 I won't be completely forgotten, my name will be carried on, so will my blood line. I am not really stuck on being forgotten or being remembered, it is just something that won't be a choice because I had kids. For me, family is very important. I have pictures of my grandparents all over and pics of my great grandparents out too. I have sat down and talked about them and told my kids stories of when I was little and the things that I used to do with these generations that have past. I am by no means stating that deciding to have or not to have kids is wrong. It is a very personal choice. One that can only be made by that individual. Is being self serving or selfish a bad thing all the time. I don't think so. I wouldn't say sex on a regular basis or masturbating is wrong and both are pretty self serving. BobbiA miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #72 August 19, 2006 QuoteI guess the point that is being raised is, WHO will remember you and the legacy that you left behind. And that is exactly the point, you left it behind, there is no one to carry it into the future. Into which future, please? When I'm dead, I'm gone. My kids and grand kids surely will keep some memory about their parents/grand partents but, all I want is to show my kids a way into THEIR future, if possible with a little help. I am no more counting once I'm gone. And that is normal, IMO. I'm a happy mom and enjoy what I "produced" but, am fully aware that my offspring is not my property, I gave birth to them, let them live and what they do with their life is simply their own biz once their standing on own feet. Yes, I have a lovely family with a lot of members - yet, my dead grandparents (only 1 grandpa is still alive) are no more actual part of my present life. They're dead since so many years, I enjoy watching old pics from time to time and have some fine memories - that's it. My and my family's life is right NOW. If my offspring ever will have own kids, it surely is the same: The time of the "oldies" is over one day, that's it. Keep a loving memory and move on. My kids do not need to carry my "future" into their own. The world's turning, right? Not one of my kids or (perhaps one day) grandkids needs to hang my pic on the wall and think about my every day. That's MHO. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dolph 0 #73 August 19, 2006 Quotewell dolph, as I said in my posts here, this is all my opinion. if you don't agree with it, then you don't agree with it. I stand by my remarks and again state it's my view that marriage is DESIGNED for the creation of a family. The question shouldn't be, IMO, "why should we have kids" but rather, "why shouldn't we have kids?" If the answer is just that you want to spend your life playing, I hope you'll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing that as anything but shallow. Remember, I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence. I've had the recreational life and compared to having a family, it is sorely lacking. Hey Micro. My issue was not your stated purpose of marriage. What srtuck me as odd was that you on one hand rightfully pointed out that with many kids, people point fingers at you. You stated we should be more openminded and less judgmental. But earlier in your post you showed a lack of understanding of this principle - looking down not on the people who usually comment on large families, but rather on people who have no kids. There are a good number of reasons not to have kids - one is to focus on one's own life - and the friends and family already in place. Another is not to bring a human being into the world unless one is ready to go 100% for this person. Career issues might be a reason. Infertility. A moral judgment that bringing humans into a world of suffering is wrong can be a yet another. And so forth. You come off as a bit of a righteous bastard who hold an opinion that those for whatever reason elect to live different than you with regards to kids are selfish and shallow. Of course I'll forgive ya for it - just pointing it out bro. Some people might be hurt or be pissed off by such comment in the same way that comments regarding your number of kids hurt you or your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #74 August 19, 2006 I don't think anybody should have to have children. And God only knows, some people should never even think about having children. But that said & done, I think couples who don't have kids are missing out on the biggest part of life. I know plenty of singles and couples my age who went kidless and make cushy incomes (the justly hated DINKs - Double Income, No Kids). They're nice enough people and a few of them are some of my best friends. But their focus on life is that of aging children. They have all the best toys, best cars, and take the best vacations. In our sport they're the ones who own two or three rigs and couldn't pack a one of them if their lives depended on it, because they pay a packer while they're off playing at whorehouse prices in the wind tunnel. Maybe JUST a tinge of jealousy in that, but that's only bwecause they rub it in by insisting I should jump more often and play in the tunnel like they do. The morning our first kid was born, I looked at this little naked baby and realized I wasn't a kid anymore, that I was an adult and it was her turn to be the kid and my job to be a dad. Having kids has more ups and downs, rewards and frustrations than anything else I can think of. But it completes you as a human being and that's something more toys will never do. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #75 August 19, 2006 QuoteQuotewell dolph, as I said in my posts here, this is all my opinion. if you don't agree with it, then you don't agree with it. I stand by my remarks and again state it's my view that marriage is DESIGNED for the creation of a family. The question shouldn't be, IMO, "why should we have kids" but rather, "why shouldn't we have kids?" If the answer is just that you want to spend your life playing, I hope you'll forgive me if I have a hard time seeing that as anything but shallow. Remember, I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence. I've had the recreational life and compared to having a family, it is sorely lacking. Hey Micro. My issue was not your stated purpose of marriage. What srtuck me as odd was that you on one hand rightfully pointed out that with many kids, people point fingers at you. You stated we should be more openminded and less judgmental. But earlier in your post you showed a lack of understanding of this principle - looking down not on the people who usually comment on large families, but rather on people who have no kids. There are a good number of reasons not to have kids - one is to focus on one's own life - and the friends and family already in place. Another is not to bring a human being into the world unless one is ready to go 100% for this person. Career issues might be a reason. Infertility. A moral judgment that bringing humans into a world of suffering is wrong can be a yet another. And so forth. You come off as a bit of a righteous bastard who hold an opinion that those for whatever reason elect to live different than you with regards to kids are selfish and shallow. Of course I'll forgive ya for it - just pointing it out bro. Some people might be hurt or be pissed off by such comment in the same way that comments regarding your number of kids hurt you or your wife. If you re-read my posts, I stated quite freely that there are many very legitimate reasons for people to NOT have kids. The reason I do not agree with is simply this: some childless couples avoid having kids b/c they want to live in a state of perpetual adolescence, wherein they think that life is simply a playground in which they should engage in whatever recreations fit their fancy at the neglect of higher callings. That, IMO, is far from a legitimate reason for avoiding having kids. That was my only "bone of contention." If that makes me a bastard as righteous bastard in your eyes, well at least you're big enough a man to forgive me. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
