The true orgin of the current Mideast conflict?

[cumplidor 0]

A long video, but very enlightening.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=341600202419569830&hl=en

[Skyrad 0]

Very interesting, I knew about Dier Yasien already. But as mentioned in the video it was only one of many instances of mass murder. Those instances have continued ever since in one form or another for example Sabra and Shateela (Where the Israelis assisted the millita to commit mass murder.)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[warpedskydiver 0]

100 of 700 killed, I wonder how so many escaped?

[warpedskydiver 0]

I also cannot find palestine on the map.

I must be doing something wrong.

I know that Menachem Begin was a terrorist, but I also can't find some other answers.

[Darius11 12]

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I also cannot find palestine on the map.

Whos map?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Skyrad 0]

So was Sharron and many other top Israelis over the years. The fact is with the exception of the families who were there before '48 Israel is a land of squatters.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Darius11 12]

What a great video with out any hate or propaganda just facts and the truth about the history.


What has always surprised me is this.

If you have been the target of ethnic cleansing and massacres as many of the Israelis were how could you do the same to others? How can you even attempt to justify it?

It also shows who lived on that land and how it was taken from them.

I say it again. There are similarities to Hitler and Nazi Germany to the Israelis.
No where near that scale but the same morals or lake of morals.

The first step towards peace is Justice and the first step towards justice is admitting guilt and righting the wrong.

The Israeli citizens and their supporters need to stop having their knee jerk reactions and stop denying the actual history. That is the only way we can have peace. It effects us all.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[cumplidor 0]

Well, growing up in the US doesn't seem to offer much Middle East history. Especially not that part of the history. WWII was however a very large part of history though. Especially that 6 million number. sad

Watching that made me remember when I first read/heard about the Cherokee Trail of Tears in school. It really bothered me at the time, I just couldn't understand how anyone could do that to another people.

But then I grew up, and realized life really revolves around the dollar for some folks, and those folks will do almost anything to get a dollar.

[falxori 0]

I'm sorry to burst the bubble here, but just for the sake of balance, look up the history of "gush etzion" and what happened to the people who lived there until they were murdered in 1948, all four settlements were totally destroyed. The Arabs murdered 240 men and women, with another 260 being taken into captivity.

you can't grasp history by looking into one event from a one sided point of view ignoring the context of the war going on at the time (and especially who started that war)

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

Your figures are well out. While it is unacceptable to kill POWs this incident was as a direct result of the mass murder commited at Dier Yasin and other places.

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Kfar Etzion was a religious kibbutz founded in 1943, about 2 km east of the road between Jerusalem and Hebron. By the end of 1947, there were 163 adults and 50 children living there. Together with three nearby kibbutzim established 1945-1947, it formed Gush Etzion (the Etzion Bloc).

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According to one account, the main group of about 50 defenders were surrounded by a large number of Arab irregulars, who shouted "Deir Yassin!" and ordered the Jews to sit down, stand up, and sit down again. Suddenly someone opened fire on the Jews with a machine gun and others joined in the killing. Those Jews not immediately cut down tried to run away but were pursued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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was as a direct result of the mass murder commited at Dier Yasin and other places

oh right...
so the result of what were the riots of 1929 and 1936-1939 ?
at least you've accepted the fact that civilians who have surrendered were murdered.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

I don't deny history, the defenders were unarmed and were murdered. (Although roughly a third of them were not 'civillians' they still were unlawfully killed)

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A total of 157 defenders died in the battle of Gush Etzion (Levi, 1986), including those killed in the massacre at Kfar Etzion. About 2/3 of them were residents and the remainder were Hagana or Palmach soldiers.

On the following day, the Arab irregular forces continued their assault on the remaining three Etzion settlements. Fearing that the defenders might suffer the same fate as those of Kfar Etzion, Zionist leaders in Jerusalem negotiated a deal for the surrender of the settlements on condition that the Arab Legion protected the residents. The Red Cross took the wounded to Jerusalem, and the Arab Legion took the remainder as prisoners of war. They were later released.

Just as at Dier Yasin it where it was Jews from the neibouring villages that saved the survivors here it was Arabs who saved the Jewish survivors.

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Only three of the remaining Kfar Etzion residents and one Palmach member survived. According to their own testimony, the circumstances of their survival were as follows.

Yaacov Edelstein and Yitzhak Ben-Sira tried to hide amongst a jumble of bolders and branches, but they were discovered by a "wrinkled, toothless, old Arab" who told them "Don't be afraid." Then a group of Arab irregulars rushed up and threw them against a wall. The old Arab tried to shield them with his body. As they argued, two Arab Legionnaires came up and took the two Jews under their protection.

Nahum Ben-Sira, the brother of Yitzhak, was away from the main group when the massacre started. He hid until nightfall then escaped to a nearby kibbutz.

Eliza Fauktwanger (Palmach) tried to hide in a ditch with several others. They were discovered and all were killed except Eliza, who was dragged away by two Arabs (perhaps Arab Legionnaires). As the two were trying to rape her, an Arab Legion officer arrived and shot them dead.

What a shame that more people on both sides don't want to see what we have in common rather than focus on that which seperates us.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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was as a direct result of the mass murder commited at Dier Yasin and other places

oh right...
so the result of what were the riots of 1929 and 1936-1939 ?

In the summer of 1929, a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem became steadily more violent, and erupted in a series of demonstrations and riots in late August. During the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs); 116 Arabs were killed and 232 wounded (mostly by British-commanded police and soldiers)

Hardly a one sided aggression.

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In April 1936, the Arab leadership in the British Mandate of Palestine, led by Hajj Amin al-Husayni, declared a general strike to protest against, and put an end to Jewish immigration to Palestine. The revolt was driven primarily by Arab hostility to Britain's permission of restricted Jewish immigration and land purchases which Palestinian Arabs believed was leading them to becoming a minority in the territory and future nation-state. They demanded immediate elections which, based on their demographic majority, would have resulted in a democratic Arab government.

So to answer your question, these riots came about because of an influz of foriegners taking Arab land, becuase we the British fucked over the Arabs, whilst denying them democracy. Can't you understand why they were pissed?

Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Uprising

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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What a shame that more people on both sides don't want to see what we have in common rather than focus on that which seperates us

agreed.
i've only posted this story to show that the theme of "the evil jews murdered unarmed civilians" is at best, lacking the historical context of the war going on at the time.
property and lives were lost on both sides. sad but true.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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What a shame that more people on both sides don't want to see what we have in common rather than focus on that which seperates us

agreed.
i've only posted this story to show that the theme of "the evil jews murdered unarmed civilians" is at best, lacking the historical context of the war going on at the time.
property and lives were lost on both sides. sad but true.

I agree with you. It all has to be viewed in context in light of what was happening at the time. However we seldom hear what the Arab population went through or how appalingly they were treated. That is not to dismiss the crimes inflicted upon the Jewish people though. But rarely do we hear abut the response to those riots or to the indiginous population as a result of the imigration of the foriegners.

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Response
The British responded to the violence by greatly expanding their military forces and clamping down on Arab dissent. "Administrative detention" (imprisonment without charges or trial), curfews, and house demolitions were among British practices during this period. More than 120 Arabs were sentenced to death and about 40 hanged. The main Arab leaders were arrested or expelled. Amin al-Husayni fled from Palestine to escape arrest.

Remember, these riots started because the Arabs were denied democracy.

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The mainstream Jewish military organization, the Haganah (Hebrew for "defense"), actively supported British efforts to quell the largely peasant insurgency, which reached 10,000 Arab fighters at their peak during the summer and fall of 1938. Although the British administration didn't officially recognize the Haganah, the British security forces cooperated with it by forming the Jewish Settlement Police, Jewish Auxiliary Forces and Special Night Squads. A smaller Haganah splinter group, the Irgun organization (also called by its Hebrew acronym Etzel), adopted a policy of retaliation and revenge (including against civilians).

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Outcome
Despite the assistance of 20,000 additional British troops and 14,500 well trained and well armed Haganah men, the Great Uprising continued for over three years. By the time order was restored in March of 1939, more than 5,000 Arabs, 400 Jews, and 200 Britons were killed.

While the deaths on both sides is regretable the figures are extremely disproportunate I think you'd agree? The terror was used in the main against the Arabs.


Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Uprising

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[BDashe 0]

I may start a huge ball of sh*t here, but here aremy 2 cents. Ive studied the terrorism and conflict and the history of it, none of which really stems from one event. The main modern problem with radical islam (just one of many forms of terrorism/conflict that is in the spotlight right now) has been the formation of israel which stirred up all kinds of hatred between groups. no big new news. what some peoples' interpretations of islam justifies these mass killings whether we view them as innocent or not. you have to see these things through the eyes of the aggressor. If you want to discuss mass murder and genocide, look to Africa: Rwanda, Congo, Sudan etc. After having been to some of these countries, and meeting people who were involved with this type of stuff that is truly gruesome, it made me realize a couple things that were kind of disheartening.
First and foremost, in uneducated and less cultured areas of the world with little to no technology or outside influence to the people, opiate of the masses is very effective. so effective, think of a modern society in the 40s of WWII and the nazis, what we view as a western and educated society, kills millions. so imagine the effectiveness on those that we describe as uneducated or uninformed.
Granted the nazis werent exactly neighbor on neighbor like rwanda/africa has been, however the truth is millions have died from the influence of a few extremists given the opportunity.
What really frustrates me about the issue is that after 60 or so years, neither side has budged an inch, no concessions are made, and if so it is done so with fingers crossed. It really upsets me to see these societies that war for decades and never once stop to think "hey, no one is winning maybe there is a middle ground where we dont have to blow each other up"
And Western/European influence doesnt help in the least. when we try to help, we use these people as puppets for our own good, supply one group with training and weapons to fight communism one decade as allies, the next have all our own sh*t shot back at us as enemies.
Obviously i am just scratching the surface of this topic and i could go on and debate for hours, but that is my semi informed opinion on modern conflict and terror.

The world is full of assholes, they should all convene and just F*ck themselves: think "team america" d*ck, P*ssy, Ass speech

clear skies

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[Skyrad 0]

Not seen the film but I agree with the rest of your post.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs); 116 Arabs were killed and 232 wounded (mostly by British-commanded police and soldiers)

unlike many here, i don't rely on the numbers to determine whos fault it is. I rely on who started it and who attacked who, and quoting your post its pretty obvious.
if the result of the riots was that the british police stepped in to restore the order, it may be a sad outcome but the alternative of the rioting going on is not better...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[miked10270 0]

Here we go again... Who started it!

After careful consideration of both the historical & religious viewpoints...

I blame Moses & Pharoah!

IF Pharoah hadn't gone all wobbly over a few plagues & stuff and held out a while, then God could have killed ALL the Egyptians and Moses wouldn't have had to lead his Zionist horde across The Red Sea - they could have stayed in the de-populated Egypt.

Of course, since Moses was hell bent on finding his "promised Land", they might have gone to Palestine anyway, although taking 40 years to get from The Nile to Palestine tends to suggest some weakness in navigational technique.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[falxori 0]

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Here we go again... Who started it!

the title of the thread suggests Israel has.
why does it only bother you when the Arab side is said to have started things?
who started things is very relevant if you're looking for who to blame.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[miked10270 0]

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Here we go again... Who started it!

the title of the thread suggests Israel has.

When it's obvious that Dier Yasin DIDN'T start it. This was an Israeli response to an Arab action... Which was a response to an Israeli action... Which was a response to an Arab action... Which was a response to....

And so on and so on...

Put an Arab & an Israeli scholar together in a suitably & comprehensively equipped library and they could play a sophisticated version of that well-known KINDERGARTEN game: "He Started It!" for millenia!!! Certainly far longer than the actual conflict has been going.

Hence, just to cut through 7,000 or so years of tit-for-tat, I thought I'd get to the origins of the problem.

MOSES STARTED IT!!!

Moses led the Israelites into Palestine. Iin response, of course, to Pharoah's enslavement of them... But that wasn't the Palestinian's fault, was it. They were just sitting minding their own business when Moses and the Israelites turned up claiming some Godly - Squatters rights!

There. Thread answered. Now that we've sorted out who started it... Can we now turn our attention to how to end it. Fairly and reasonably so that BOTH sides can live with the result!!?

Mike.

PS:

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why does it only bother you when the Arab side is said to have started things?

Play the post, not the poster?

PPS:

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who started things is very relevant if you're looking for who to blame.

That's my kids' mentality when they're spatting. Mine is to end the spat and fix the problem.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[falxori 0]

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There. Thread answered. Now that we've sorted out who started it... Can we now turn our attention to how to end it.

exaclty, and that's exactly why I have a problem with the flood of threads about this issue, all of them point to the problems and how Israel has caused them, very few suggest a solution (other than all Israelis pack up and move which is not an option)

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That's my kids' mentality when they're spatting. Mine is to end the spat and fix the problem.

tell that to the original poster, He started the "who started it" thread...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

Israel did not exist back then, the problem was the influx of foriegners, (not all of whom were Jewish) and the British mismanagement of Arab land. This along with the racist laws pertaining to land ownership which ment that unless you were Jewish you could not own or work the land led to the uprising by Arabs who had been robbed of any other forum in which to raise and have justly heard their issues. This whole thread is not about placing blame but to understand why the Palastinians feel the way they do.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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problem was the influx of foriegners

what you call "foreigners" i call people returning home. would you consider the palestinian refugees of 1967 foreigners if/when they return to the state of palestine? how long do you have to be away in order to be a foreigner? because it seems to me that most jews felt "foreign" anywhere but in Israel.

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This along with the racist laws pertaining to land ownership which ment that unless you were Jewish you could not own or work the land

what laws are you talking about? i've never heard of such laws.
I have heard however about the british "white book" which limits the number of jewish refugees that were allowed to come to Israel, if you are looking for racist laws...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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During the 1920s, 100,000 Jewish immigrants entered Palestine, and 6,000 non-Jewish immigrants did so as well. Jewish immigration was controlled by the Histadrut, which selected between applicants on the grounds of their political creed. Land purchased by Jewish agencies was leased on the conditions that it be worked only by Jewish labour and that the lease should not be held by non-Jews.

Initially, Jewish immigration to Palestine met little opposition from the Palestinian Arabs. However, as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly, creating much Arab resentment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine
Whatever you may think, those people were foriegn, Germans Poles Russians Americans et al what makes you belive they were coming 'home'?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca