The true orgin of the current Mideast conflict?

[falxori 0]

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Jewish immigration was controlled by the Histadrut,

in the 1920 neither the histadrut, nor any other "jewish" organization had any say in who can and cannot come to Israel, the authority was in the hands of the brits.

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what makes you belive they were coming 'home'?

you could say their historic link to this place. but what makes it home to them is their feeling its their home. but lets not start the "whos home it is" debate and agree that it is both nations' home and thus has to be divided.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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problem was the influx of foriegners

what you call "foreigners" i call people returning home. would you consider the palestinian refugees of 1967 foreigners if/when they return to the state of palestine? how long do you have to be away in order to be a foreigner? because it seems to me that most jews felt "foreign" anywhere but in Israel.

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This along with the racist laws pertaining to land ownership which ment that unless you were Jewish you could not own or work the land

what laws are you talking about? i've never heard of such laws.
I have heard however about the british "white book" which limits the number of jewish refugees that were allowed to come to Israel, if you are looking for racist laws...

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In 1922 the British undertook the first census of the mandate. The population was 752,048, comprising 589,177 Muslims, 83,790 Jews, 71,464 Christians and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. After a second census in 1931, the population had grown to 1,036,339 in total, comprising 761,922 Muslims, 175,138 Jews, 89,134 Christians and 10,145 people belonging to other groups. There were no further censuses but statistics were maintained by counting births, deaths and migration. Some components such as illegal immigration could only be estimated approximately. The White Paper of 1939, which placed immigration restrictions on Jews, stated that the Jewish population "has risen to some 450,000" and was "approaching a third of the entire population of the country". In 1945 a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.

So from 83,790 Jews in 1922 to 553,600 Jews in 1945! Hardly suprising something had to be done.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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So from 83,790 Jews in 1922 to 553,600 Jews in 1945! Hardly suprising something had to be done.

that all depends if you think they had a right to come back to Israel after being in exile for a long time.
clearly I do.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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Jewish immigration was controlled by the Histadrut,

in the 1920 neither the histadrut, nor any other "jewish" organization had any say in who can and cannot come to Israel, the authority was in the hands of the brits.

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what makes you belive they were coming 'home'?

you could say their historic link to this place. but what makes it home to them is their feeling its their home. but lets not start the "whos home it is" debate and agree that it is both nations' home and thus has to be divided.

It was not intended that Palastine be a Jewish state and for that reson the Mc Donald paper was drawn up limiting Jewish immgration for the following reasons (taken from the May 17th paper)

'"His Majesty's Government believe that the framers of the Mandate in which the Balfour Declaration was embodied could not have intended that Palestine should be converted into a Jewish State against the will of the Arab population of the country. [...] His Majesty's Government therefore now declare unequivocally that it is not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State. They would indeed regard it as contrary to their obligations to the Arabs under the Mandate, as well as to the assurances which have been given to the Arab people in the past, that the Arab population of Palestine should be made the subjects of a Jewish State against their will."

"The objective of His Majesty's Government is the establishment within 10 years of an independent Palestine State in such treaty relations with the United Kingdom as will provide satisfactorily for the commercial and strategic requirements of both countries in the future. [..] The independent State should be one in which Arabs and Jews share government in such a way as to ensure that the essential interests of each community are safeguarded."

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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So from 83,790 Jews in 1922 to 553,600 Jews in 1945! Hardly suprising something had to be done.

that all depends if you think they had a right to come back to Israel after being in exile for a long time.
clearly I do.

How long is a long time?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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It was not intended that Palastine be a Jewish state and for that reson the Mc Donald paper was drawn up limiting Jewish immgration

Did someone mention"racist laws" ?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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It was not intended that Palastine be a Jewish state and for that reson the Mc Donald paper was drawn up limiting Jewish immgration

Did someone mention"racist laws" ?

It was a law based on a religion or race but I don't think it was really intended as a negative thing considerng the context of the local situation.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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How long is a long time?

as long as people remember and consider this place their home.
and yes, 2000 years is as valid as 60.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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It was a law based on a religion or race but I don't think it was really intended as a negative thing considerng the context of the local situation.

racist laws never are...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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How long is a long time?

as long as people remember and consider this place their home.
and yes, 2000 years is as valid as 60.

so would you agree then that the native Americans would be right to take back the land that they have been kicked off from? After all it is their home. Same goes for the Aborignees. By that reasoning I should be able to claim land in France that my family owned back in 1066. Hundreds of thousands of Americans and Australians and others then would have the right to decend upon Ireland and Scotland and cliam it as home because they once had ancestors that lived there. Come on

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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so would you agree then that the native Americans would be right to take back the land that they have been kicked off from? After all it is their home. Same goes for the Aborignees. By that reasoning I should be able to claim land in France that my family owned back in 1066. Hundreds of thousands of Americans and Australians and others then would have the right to decend upon Ireland and Scotland and cliam it as home because they once had ancestors that lived there. Come on

what I am saying is that they will (or will not) have the same right you are automatically giving the Palestinians and denying the Israelis.
who said 100 years is valid but 2000 is not?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

Common sense?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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Common sense?

so by that sense, Israel's existance in the past 60 years and the very strong jewish presence here in the past 100 years or so is good enough ?

if you look at the present, we're both here and sharing is the only valid option, if you look at the past to determine who is the "rightful owner", you can't simply pick the time frame that suits your views.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

Ok, lets not bicker on time but find the common ground and that is that the land has to be shared. Are you for unrestricted immigration for anyone who is Jewish then?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[BDashe 0]

my point was that whether it is 60 or 2000 years, its more widely known now due to mass media, and because of current technology, communication occurs a SHITLOAD faster than 2000 years ago, which allows for much quicker, more precise and deadly attacks. why, whether palestinian or jewish, i honestly sympathize with neither, and im freakin half jewish, after decades, centuries, or even millenia, cant these groups find a common ground. much of the fighting is a result of retaliation! "my brother is killed by those damn (insert group here) i hate them they have caused all the problems for us, they are on our land," blah blah blah. each group is so so F*cking egocentric, they cant stop blowing the hell out of each other, and now that we are able to make it globally recognizable, other peoples' money and men get the crap blown out of em. people need to be brought to the 21st century already. It is just logical to stop and figure something out, but when you have coutnries like iran egging em on "israel should be wiped off the face of the planet" or examples like the west supporting evil regimes on a whim based on the current best interest, nothing get s accomplished.
so let them figure it out on their own, or keep killing each other of a piece of dirt. It is horrible innocent people get involved inadvertantly, but when you use em as a shield, well...I PERSONALLY will keep paying for my jump tickets while i can afford em and continue to rip through the sky at 200 mph with my friends with the biggest god damned smile on my face cuz i am stoked that i can, and appreciate everything ive got! Peace amigos, stay safe.

clear skies

edit: i wasnt implying israel is evil, other peops such as the taliban that we supported in the past arent the most rational or humanitarian type.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[falxori 0]

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Are you for unrestricted immigration for anyone who is Jewish then?

we've discussed this issue in another thread recently.
basically, most cuntries have similar criteria for being allowed to move in (or become a citizen)
- being born there
- being the son (or grandson) of a citizen
- getting a work permit
- special cases (refugees etc.)

all of this also exist in israel (jews or non jews) so its not easier or harder to move here than anywhere else in the world.
in addition to these options, if you are jewish you can get in anyway. this was done in order to make sure every jew could find a refuge in Israel, and considering recent history, yes, i see the need for that.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

But going on your premisis that those people had a right to return because it was their home then surely the Palastinians who fled also have a right to return and now there is over three million of them. But as this is not the case I'm afraid that you've busted your own argument, because clearly you support a racist law. Namely that only Jews have a right to immigrate to Israel but the Palastininans whos home it was within this lifetime do not based on the fact that they are not Jews. Like you said no racist law can be right.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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But going on your premisis that those people had a right to return because it was their home then surely the Palastinians who fled also have a right to return and now there is over three million of them. But as this is not the case I'm afraid that you've busted your own argument, because clearly you support a racist law. Namely that only Jews have a right to immigrate to Israel but the Palastininans whos home it was within this lifetime do not based on the fact that they are not Jews. Like you said no racist law can be right

no, what i'm saying is that you have to be practical and every nation should have its own state and every state will make up its own set of rules.

My family was living in Hebron for centuries and were kicked out during the 36-39 riots. hundreds of thousands of arab jews were kicked out of their homes (leaving tons of property behind) in the early 50's.
if you want to be "right", i should go back to Hebron but if you want to be practical, Hebron is now 98% palestinian.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

But still your point of a racist law still holds.Just because the law benifits Jewish people doesn't make it any less racist.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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But still your point of a racist law still holds.Just because the law benifits Jewish people doesn't make it any less racist.

and corrective discrimination is still discrimination but is still pratcied in order to "fix" inherent problems (minorities in schools, women in public boards, etc)

the law that allows jews to come to Israel is a result of the holocaust and other incidents were jews were prosecuted just because they were jews.
so you can consider it a kind of corrective discrimination.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

Call it whatever you will, its still a racist law.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

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Call it whatever you will, its still a racist law.

and allocating X% of seats on a board for women is sexist and making sure X% of college students are minorities is racist, and scholarships aimed at a specific type of people (and the are many) are also racist.

this law exists for a very good reason.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2404070#2404070

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

there is a difference between a law preventing you from doing something and a law meant to help a weaker segment do things easier (but not denying others).

and before you say "jews aren't weak", i think you can admit that they are pretty much the most haunted nation/race/religion on this planet and therefor need a place they can call their own.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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and before you say "jews aren't weak", i think you can admit that they are pretty much the most haunted nation/race/religion on this planet and therefor need a place they can call their own.

Do you think their actions have anything to do with them being hunted by so many from the dawn of their religion? Or do you feel the only reason they are hunted is because they are Jewish?

Considering out of the 3 major religions they were here first.


Does being hated by a majority or being most hated give you the right to your own nation?

I guess I don’t get where the since of entitlement comes from.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain