Iran's leader calls for TV debate with Bush

[GTAVercetti 0]

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There has never been a country called "Palestine".

See attached.

You need to look up what mandate means. In this particular case, Britain was given control of the territory as adminstrators by the League of Nations (superheroes AWAY!!! ...sorry, I think that everytime I hear LoN). The area was called Palestine, but was a British territory. Before that it was an Ottoman Empire territory.

Furthermore, and I had no idea about this...but in 1922 the League of Nations passed The Palestinian Mandate which stated explicitly that adminstrators (Britain) would:

' "secure the establishment of the Jewish national home", while "safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine"'

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Bush is an egostistic moron and has never done anything right. No reason to expect him to do the right thing anytime soon.

Even I disagree with that statement. He avoided Vietnam, and got his arrest record sealed. He managed to get his rich buddies to buy him the presidency, and his decision to invade Afghanistan was correct (even though he bolloxed up the occupation leading to our current difficulties there).

He's done a wonderful job of using the Treasury to pay back all of his campaign contributors, except for Wall St of course. I'm sure he's still working on that one.

[Gawain 0]

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When a hundred generations of people have allowed their civilization to decline for half a millenium, they can't simply be talked into a new direction.

So you don't think that western influence has had anything to do with the course of their development? One question, let's say that Iran didn't have any evidence of nuclear ambitions but decided that they were going to sell all of their oil to China and absolutely none to the US. How long do you think it would take the US to find a reason to invade or before their leadership was overthrown and replaced with a pro-western president?

80% of Iran's exports are petroleum based, and nearly all of it goes to eastern Asia already, including China, Japan, ROK, Taiwan, as well as France, Italy, The Netherlands and Turkey. Japan is willing to forego their oil imports as a part of a sanctions package. China is an obstacle to putting a strangle hold on their exports.

I didn't say that the west had no hand in the middle easts' evolution as a society. However, when they've been left alone, they do not develop themselves in an interest of being a standing member of society as a whole. Instead they preoccupy themselves with issues that many generations today no longer understand. The extremists know this and they feed on the ignorant to advance their agenda. They got a huge foothold with the Iranian revolution of 1979 and another in Afghanistan. They will swallow the region as a whole if they were just "left alone".

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

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There has never been a country called "Palestine".

See attached.

You need to look up what mandate means. ... ...

Furthermore, and I had no idea about this...but in 1922 the League of Nations passed The Palestinian Mandate which stated explicitly that adminstrators (Britain) would:

' "secure the establishment of the Jewish national home", while "safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine"'

Uh-oh...you responded with facts!!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[GTAVercetti 0]

I have a bad habit of doing that.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[idrankwhat 0]

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The British Mandate had no official diplomatic representation and had no self government, nice try though.

And Israel's divine conception is different/superior how? The notion that the people who lived on that land had no claim to it because the Lady of the Lake lobbed a sword at Israel and made them King sounds pretty lousy to me.

[idrankwhat 0]

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' "secure the establishment of the Jewish national home", while "safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine"'

"inhabitants of Palestine". There's that "P" word again. So basically Israel was a nation established within the borders of Palestine and Israel was supposed to respect the Palestinian inhabitants within the borders of Israel. That sound about right?

[idrankwhat 0]

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I didn't say that the west had no hand in the middle easts' evolution as a society. However, when they've been left alone,

I'm trying to figure out when that was

The extremists know this and they feed on the ignorant to advance their agenda.

That's not exclusive to the middle east, that's for sure

[GTAVercetti 0]

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' "secure the establishment of the Jewish national home", while "safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine"'

"inhabitants of Palestine". There's that "P" word again. So basically Israel was a nation established within the borders of Palestine and Israel was supposed to respect the Palestinian inhabitants within the borders of Israel. That sound about right?

Yes, and that little fun fact was incidental (being that I believe neither side is taking correct action) to the main point I was making: Palestine was not a country before Israel came about. You tried to imply it was.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Palestine was not a country

How are you defining country? Would the Palestinians agree with that definition?

We are all engines of karma

[GTAVercetti 0]

The British controlled Palestine. They had a MANDATE to be the administrators. It was a territory of the British empire. Before that it was a territory of the Ottoman Empire. It was not sovereign.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Dolph 0]

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No, a proactive one. Proactive is stopping them before they get on the plane. Reactive is trying to stop them after they blow it up, by (say) invading unrelated countries. Reactive is what we're trying now - and it's not working.

I mean reactive in the sense that we wait for them to initiate something and then try to catch them with their pants down in the act. We wait. They plan or act. We take countermeasures.

Airport security is a classical example of this.

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Not so sure that military hardware compares well to geopolitical planning. (How many RPG's would you have to destroy before you win the hearts and minds of the rest of the RPG's?)

Simple; the armour it has is a passive, reactive one. It's designed to defeat attacks and it's purely defensive in nature. Somerthing very sophisticated can be rather easily destroyed by something crude, if the crude thing has the initiative. Same thing can be said about for example our airport security and the breaking up of plans already hatched. My assertion is that the problem must be dealt with at an earlier stage. The first and foremost (and most formidable) task would be to raise the level of education and lower the level of poverty in the regions where vulnerable people are easily recruited to terrorist organisations.

Another alternative (which is more vigorously being attempted) is disruption of flow of money, material and the elimination of known terrorists. This ain't working too well on its own.

Sooner or later the crude methods will find an opening. We need to be succesful *every time* more or less; they need just a few successes. Our sophisticated machinery can't stop terrorism in the long run if all we depend on is 'dragging all terrorists away from the US by going to war elsewhere' or relying on our ability to thwart any plans made by terrorists.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Yes, and that little fun fact was incidental (being that I believe neither side is taking correct action) to the main point I was making: Palestine was not a country before Israel came about. You tried to imply it was.

I will concede there there was no "country" with a centralized government called Palestine that had one of the wondertwin rings with the League. I'll still hold to the notion that there was region called Palestine that was occupied by people who called themselves Palestinians and who were forcibly displaced by the hand of God's squatters when he/she established the nation of Israel via a UN proxy.

[freethefly 6]

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Palestine was not a country

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How are you defining country? Would the Palestinians agree with that definition?

The Palenstinians seem to think it is a country.
If they say it is, maybe it is.

http://www.hejleh.com/countries/palestine.html

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[StreetScooby 5]

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The Palenstinians seem to think it is a country.
If they say it is, maybe it is.

Ah, so this argument has now boiled down to semantics. To be a country, you must have a formal government, which the Palestinians didn't have. But, they did have a homeland in which they raised their families. This homeland was supposed to be protected by the British Mandate, but wasn't.

That's what I'm seeing, now.

We are all engines of karma

[freethefly 6]

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Ah, so this argument has now boiled down to semantics.

I have two acres, not much but it is mine. I am going to call it a country. I am naming it Neoamerica. We are not at war with anyone and, for the most, self-sufficient. We do, however, have strict immigration laws and frown upon border jumpers. Guns are welcomed and we have no plans to enact any gun control laws. We do frown upon alcohol and drug use unless it is marijuana. So far our industry consist of embroidery and tomatoes. Since we are a country of one person and one cat, our military is quite small and the only weapons are a winchester 30.06 and a big knife. Currently our electrical source is supplied by an electric co-op. I am considering building a nuclear reactor to free my country from the hold that the co-op has over us. Doing so, however, may have consequences. But since we do not depend on aid from the U.S. we do not fear sanctions. We do fear the pre-emptive strike. Our war plan, should a pre-emptive strike occur, is to let them come in and then launch a full scale guerrila war. Seeing that there is only two sheds and one house in my country the guerrila war approach may not be the way to go. Chances are we, the cat and I, will be turned into minced meat during the shock and awe portion of the pre-emptive strike. Being a small and non-threatening country I will, as El Presidente of Neoamerica, appeal to the U.N. for intervention prior to the pre-emptive strike. I will call upon the POTUS for a sit down talk to smooth things over and ensure him that our nuclear ambitions are for peaceful means but will also maintian that we have the right to protect our country if invaded. I do realize that any hope of diplomacy is bleak when dealing with the current administration as we are a small country and the POTUS will cast me as a nutcase dictator bent on bringing down democracy. I will have him know that I did get 100% of the votes and that is democracy. The citizen (the cat) supports me 100% (he better or I'll cut him off from the aid that I have given him, ie; cat food). I am the Supreme El Presidente of Neoamerica and it is my duty to protect the citizen of my great country at all cost.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[StreetScooby 5]

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I am going to call it a country.

LOL!!!

Well put.

We are all engines of karma

[Erroll 80]

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The citizen (the cat) supports me 100% (he better or I'll cut him off from the aid that I have given him, ie; cat food).

The citizen clearly does not support you voluntarily.
I also doubt that he shares in the profits of the economy of Neoamerica. I suspect that he is in fact quite disgruntled and disillusioned to the point that he would be an easy target for Feline Fundamentalists. Watch your back!

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I am the Supreme El Presidente of Neoamerica

Hmmmm..... just another tomato banana republic in the making.

[idrankwhat 0]

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The Palenstinians seem to think it is a country.
If they say it is, maybe it is.

Ah, so this argument has now boiled down to semantics. To be a country, you must have a formal government, which the Palestinians didn't have. But, they did have a homeland in which they raised their families. This homeland was supposed to be protected by the British Mandate, but wasn't.

That's what I'm seeing, now.

I stumbled across this site yesterday. I'm still trying to sift through it, there's a lot of information, maps, pictures, etc. Unfortunately I also have a job so it may take me a while. Here's the link if you folks are interested.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

[StreetScooby 5]

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http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

I've started reading this. There is alot of material. Seems to confirm what the Palestinians are claiming - there land was taken from them.

We are all engines of karma

[Andy9o8 2]

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http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

I've started reading this. There is alot of material. Seems to confirm what the Palestinians are claiming - there land was taken from them.

Advocating a claim and confirming it are 2 different things. I think it's fair to apply the "consider the source" rule to this website. In another thread, "Idrankwhat" (who posts this site) recently pointed out that the author of an opinion piece was from an American Zionist organization, implying (probably correctly) that she was not neutral. Certainly www.palestineremembered.com website is not neutral, either. Each side cherry-picks, and molds, the facts that they want to play up, and ignores, or minimizes, the facts that don't help their agenda.

[StreetScooby 5]

Let me be perfectly clear here, in my reply. I do not have a vested interest in the outcome of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. So, in practical terms, I really don't care what happens.

On that note,

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Advocating a claim and confirming it are 2 different things.

Agreed. How do you define confirm?

Seems thousands of Palestianians,
from what appear to be a collection of large and extended families,
are claiming ownership to land their families have owned sinced Ottoman times,
actually producing land deeds to prove their point.
That in itself must count as a confirmation of something.
Lots of reproducible observations here.

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I think it's fair to apply the "consider the source" rule to this website.

Sure. Agreed. But, that doesn't mean the material on that website can't be substantially reasonable.
I've read Al-Jazeera's english website now several times.
The opinion articles are reasoned, and pretty well at that.
The small fraction of material I've read on www.palestineremembered.com is quite reasoned.

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Certainly www.palestineremembered.com website is not neutral, either.

Probably not.

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Each side cherry-picks, and molds, the facts that they want to play up, and ignores, or minimizes, the facts that don't help their agenda.

Of course. These are very emotional, long running issues, for both sides.

We are all engines of karma

[idrankwhat 0]

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Advocating a claim and confirming it are 2 different things. I think it's fair to apply the "consider the source" rule to this website. In another thread, "Idrankwhat" (who posts this site) recently pointed out that the author of an opinion piece was from an American Zionist organization, implying (probably correctly) that she was not neutral. Certainly www.palestineremembered.com website is not neutral, either. Each side cherry-picks, and molds, the facts that they want to play up, and ignores, or minimizes, the facts that don't help their agenda.

Agreed, but this site does actually provide a more balanced argument and it actually provides links, references, pictures, maps etc. along with the differentiation of Israeli and Zionist. It also does mention that there is indeed the Palestinian equivalent of the Zionist and points out, rightly so, that in a conflict like this you will certainly have those who are hardcore types. So yes, look at the information and realize that it's coming from a biased source but also consider way it's presented, cited. We had long discussion that was aimed at condeming UNIFIL and it took us most of the post to figure out, if we even did, where the author's claims were based. I'm just glad that we have the opportunity nowadays to hear the argument as provided by both sides instead of just getting one handed to me by the likes of Clearchannel.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Is it just me, or does Ahmadinejad strike you as the sort of person everyone tries to avoid at parties?

Speed Racer
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[StreetScooby 5]

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Is it just me, or does Ahmadinejad strike you as the sort of person everyone tries to avoid at parties?

He's clearly been chosen by God for something

We are all engines of karma