micro 0 #51 September 5, 2006 QuoteMatters of faith should be matters that are not scientifically testable. Science isn't going to be able to tell you the purpose of life. Applying philosophy to faith makes more sense than applying science to faith. well said. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BirdBabe1 0 #52 September 5, 2006 When I think about faith, the below questions come to mind. Not to elaborate... 1. Are you going to put your faith in yourself? I personally choose not to, because I've failed myself and others plenty of times. If I've failed myself in the simple things, how can I trust myself when it comes to matters of life & death? 2. Are you going to place your faith in what other's say? Your friends, counselors, philosophers? That seems inadequate too. They're human to and subject to failure just as we are. 3. As far as the Bible goes... would you blindly believe someone's opinion about it? Is there one man on earth who's opinion is infallible? I don't think so. 4. If you believe the Bible to be true, would you read what it says? It speaks for itself. Why be afraid about interpretations? You could consider opinions about what it says but ultimately make your own personal decision. That would not be trusting in yourself. It would be trusting in the Bible as God's revelation to mankind and trusting that God can help you make the right decision. There should be no fear in searching the truth and considering the Bible. 5. Or would you choose to put your head in the sand and think everything's just going to work itself for you. Faith is apart of life. It's just a matter of what are you're going to put your faith in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #53 September 5, 2006 Quoteanything requiring your complete confidence in a person or plan. like when you go to a new doctor, one you've never seen before... he may have the diplomas, but you don't KNOW he's good. You have put a certain degree of faith in his ability. He could be a complete clod. like in any romantic relationship... you have faith your significant other isn't going to cheat on you... he or she may have well placed history of NOT cheating, but that isn't necessarily proof that he or she will NOT cheat in the future. you could call this "confidence" or "belief" or "trust" or whatever, but at root, it's faith, not at all dissimilar to the virtue of religious faith. To know requires proof, to believe requires evidence, to have faith requires neither. If I have proof or evidence then my belief is justified. If I have neither, then belief is not justified and you'd need faith. I'll trust nothing to faith because it's a gamble and the odds suck. At a fundamental level, all of the things you mentioned will have either proof or evidence attached to them on some level. God on the other hand has no such evidence. Religious faith and the other things you mention are very different animals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #54 September 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteanything requiring your complete confidence in a person or plan. like when you go to a new doctor, one you've never seen before... he may have the diplomas, but you don't KNOW he's good. You have put a certain degree of faith in his ability. He could be a complete clod. like in any romantic relationship... you have faith your significant other isn't going to cheat on you... he or she may have well placed history of NOT cheating, but that isn't necessarily proof that he or she will NOT cheat in the future. you could call this "confidence" or "belief" or "trust" or whatever, but at root, it's faith, not at all dissimilar to the virtue of religious faith. To know requires proof, to believe requires evidence, to have faith requires neither. If I have proof or evidence then my belief is justified. If I have neither, then belief is not justified and you'd need faith. I'll trust nothing to faith because it's a gamble and the odds suck. At a fundamental level, all of the things you mentioned will have either proof or evidence attached to them on some level. God on the other hand has no such evidence. Religious faith and the other things you mention are very different animals. All the things I mentioned have SOME proof or SOME evidence but there is still SOME risk involved! Especially in romantic relationships (and a relationship w/ God has often been described that way), you will always have to put your heart out there and risk it being hurt, b/c you don't know what the other person is going to do w/ your heart! THAT is FAITH! If you aren't willing to do that, then you aren't willing to LOVE. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #55 September 5, 2006 QuoteAll the things I mentioned have SOME proof or SOME evidence but there is still SOME risk involved! Especially in romantic relationships (and a relationship w/ God has often been described that way), you will always have to put your heart out there and risk it being hurt, b/c you don't know what the other person is going to do w/ your heart! THAT is FAITH! If you aren't willing to do that, then you aren't willing to LOVE. Well there's the thing. SOME evidence puts you fairly in the belief category, faith is no longer necessary. In romantic relationships, you usually get something for your investment. But with god all you get is they guy who ignores you when you pray to him. Loving a woman who is real and in front of you, who responds to you is a hell of a lot easier (and much more fun) than an unresponsive entity that is indistinguishable from it's non-existence. That would be a bit like pushing boulders uphill. It really does take faith to believe in god and when the payoff is essentially zero, I can't see the point. You obviously disagree and I'm gald you do, the debate is good for the old grey matter. Have a good one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #56 September 5, 2006 to no one in particular, a well stated example of how ridiculus it it to claim your "religion" has the ONLY truth www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgHfq0epSJqwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BirdBabe1 0 #57 September 5, 2006 If you acknowledge that everything we have is from God, then it makes it alot easier to have faith in Him. Each breath is a gift, and something we don't deserve. The penalty of sin is death, so the fact that we're allowed to continue living is amazing. We live in an age of grace & mercy. The question is, "what are you going to do with God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ?" Accept, deny, or act indifferent to it. Salvation is a gift. Not forced, but something you have the choice to accept. I'm not entirely sure why I started this thread. I guess it's because I've encountered alot of conversation between Catholic and "Fundamentalist". I've researched informative websites and found the below links. Bible Over 97,996 Bible Questions Answered at http://gotquestions.org http://www.biblegateway.com http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html http://gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_sort=0&zoom_query=salvation Catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BirdBabe1 0 #58 September 5, 2006 I know some of you may comment about what I've said, but I have to take a step away from the forums. I'm getting married soon, and it's time to get serious about planning. Blue Skies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #59 September 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteAll the things I mentioned have SOME proof or SOME evidence but there is still SOME risk involved! Especially in romantic relationships (and a relationship w/ God has often been described that way), you will always have to put your heart out there and risk it being hurt, b/c you don't know what the other person is going to do w/ your heart! THAT is FAITH! If you aren't willing to do that, then you aren't willing to LOVE. Well there's the thing. SOME evidence puts you fairly in the belief category, faith is no longer necessary. In romantic relationships, you usually get something for your investment. But with god all you get is they guy who ignores you when you pray to him. Loving a woman who is real and in front of you, who responds to you is a hell of a lot easier (and much more fun) than an unresponsive entity that is indistinguishable from it's non-existence. That would be a bit like pushing boulders uphill. It really does take faith to believe in god and when the payoff is essentially zero, I can't see the point. You obviously disagree and I'm gald you do, the debate is good for the old grey matter. Have a good one. Well, we do disagree, b/c EXPERIENTIALLY the payoff has been FAR from zero in my own life and my wife's life (whoops, almost typed "wives" life, which would have made me a polygamistic mormon! LOL!!) The leap of faith isn't as far of a jump as you make it out to be... It's scary if you haven't made it, but for me it's like leaving the plane for the first time. Terrifying until you actually let go... then, you're in freefall and the fear is gone and peace ensues. It's breathtaking in the same sense to be in the Providence of God. And it is truly experiential as well. You can really sense it. And no I'm not psychotic. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #60 September 5, 2006 QuoteI know some of you may comment about what I've said, but I have to take a step away from the forums. I'm getting married soon, and it's time to get serious about planning. Blue Skies. Good luck to you and your fiance!!! Have a great wedding and honeymoon!!! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BirdBabe1 0 #61 September 6, 2006 Thank you. It's 45 days away. October 20th. Peace out. Blue Skies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #62 September 6, 2006 QuoteIf you acknowledge that everything we have is from God, then it makes it alot easier to have faith in Him. Each breath is a gift, and something we don't deserve. The penalty of sin is death, so the fact that we're allowed to continue living is amazing. We live in an age of grace & mercy. The question is, "what are you going to do with God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ?" Accept, deny, or act indifferent to it. Salvation is a gift. Not forced, but something you have the choice to accept. the difference is you have 'pre established' the limits of your faith by your blind acceptance of the unprovable, unsupportable cosmology (system) you've decided to adopt in your life.. the 'warm fuzzy feeling' you receive, once you 'give yourself up to God" is common to all humans in ANY endevour once they cease to worry about that which they have no control over.... most cling desperately to that blanket and the sense of "security" it provided based on WILL ALONE, as when it comes to GOD you wont find any testable, objective evidence to support your Mythos over any other.. other than the way you "feel" which of course doesnt meet any standard of evidence or Proof.... Science is a method of inquiry.. it can be used for ANYTHING that can be measured. GOD (by fairly universal definitions of what would constitute 'God' common to all religions that have such distinctions) cannot be measured, by anyone's mind or any one Culture... but people STILL cling to bronze age superstitions and stories as proof that it could.....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #63 September 6, 2006 Quote5. Or would you choose to put your head in the sand and think everything's just going to work itself for you. No, I'm going to go read my astrology column in the newspaper and do some planning. Maybe I'll toss chicken bones on the floor and set rum on fire and dance too. And I don't want to hear any negativity from the people who think that voodoo is just another form of naive hogwash. Their invisible guy isn't any better than mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #64 September 6, 2006 Nothing to add, just had to share this special moment I just had. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #65 September 6, 2006 QuoteNothing to add, just had to share this special moment I just had. You Witchy Woman You! I love you! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #66 September 6, 2006 QuoteIf you acknowledge that everything we have is from God, then it makes it alot easier to have faith in Him. Honestly, is that supposed to be funny? Basically, what you've just said is "if you have faith in god, it's a lot easier to have faith in god". And that, ladies and gentlemen is the number one, top banana, absolutely the most prime reason why I'm an atheist. Any philosophy that can drive someone to come out with such utter gibberish and not even realise, cannot be a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #67 September 6, 2006 QuoteWell, we do disagree, b/c EXPERIENTIALLY the payoff has been FAR from zero in my own life and my wife's life Here's an interesting read. But I'll admit, on the basis of that article the payoff is not zero for some people. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. QuoteThe leap of faith isn't as far of a jump as you make it out to be... To me, abandoning logic, reason and rational thought is an impossibly fucking huge leap. YMMV. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #68 September 6, 2006 QuoteScience is a method of inquiry.. it can be used for ANYTHING that can be measured. GOD (by fairly universal definitions of what would constitute 'God' common to all religions that have such distinctions) cannot be measured, by anyone's mind or any one Culture...Are you telling me that because science can't see, touch, or feel that something doesn't exist? That sounds like a statement of faith to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,101 #69 September 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteScience is a method of inquiry.. it can be used for ANYTHING that can be measured. GOD (by fairly universal definitions of what would constitute 'God' common to all religions that have such distinctions) cannot be measured, by anyone's mind or any one Culture...Are you telling me that because science can't see, touch, or feel that something doesn't exist? That sounds like a statement of faith to me. Science is the best method of human enquiry yet developed. Science doesn't exist in the abstract. Science doesn't do anything by itself. If humans cannot detect something using the best methods available to humans, then for all practical purposes it doesn't exist.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #70 September 6, 2006 QuoteAre you telling me that because science can't see, touch, or feel that something doesn't exist? That sounds like a statement of faith to me. If a "thing" cannot be seen, touched, felt, sniffed, prodded, poked, shot at, eaten, heard, interacted with or otherwise measured in any way shape or form, that "thing" is indistinguishable from its own non-existance. In that case, it is not a "thing", it's "nothing". It's not faith, it's just the definition of a real existant "thing". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BirdBabe1 0 #71 September 6, 2006 I'm back again to clarify something. I received a private message, which was friendly enough, but it seemed to imply that I was Catholic, which I'm not. Perhaps that's because I posted a link to the Vatican. The only reason I did that was to be fair but also to show that there is a difference of belief. If you read the Bible in detail without taking verses out of context or basing a major doctrine on one verse, you'll find a difference between the Catechism and the Bible. Especially if you read Romans 1 to 8. Actually, you could listen to Romans 1-8 at http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html Also, the Bible is not irrelevant for our time. The Bible is complete to the end. What's written in the book of Revelations is about to come true. You might say that Revelations is too hard to understand, but it says over and over again, "to him that hath understanding, let him hear". For those of you that are interested, an easier way to look at the Bible is through the study of Dispensations. I found a pretty good site for it at http://www.e-grace.net/webgrace/dispensa.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #72 September 6, 2006 QuoteWhat's written in the book of Revelations is about to come true. Care to elaborate, or will you be vague in your prediction of the end time like all the others? There is one thing that everyone who has predicted the end of the world has in common(and there have been many of them throughout history...)....so far, they have all been wrong. Many have used the book of revelation to back up there position and were still wrong. Shouldn't that tell you something?"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #73 September 6, 2006 QuoteIf you read the Bible in detail without taking verses out of context or basing a major doctrine on one verse, you'll find a difference between the Catechism and the Bible. Especially if you read Romans 1 to 8 Perhaps motivations are starting to become clear here. If any Church bases their doctrines on verses taken out of context or on a solitary verse or two, it isn't the Catholic Church. Even a casual perusal through the Catechism will demonstrate that. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,058 #74 September 6, 2006 >What's written in the book of Revelations is about to come true. I have no doubt that someone will reinterpret Revelation to conform to current events at some point - but you can do the same with all of Nostrodamus' predictions. Given that the Bible is not a history or science book, I would not place any great weight in the details of when a third of the sea will turn to blood, or which 144,000 people will be sealed. Nor do I expect locusts with the faces of men, the teeth of lions, the hair of a woman and tails like scorpions to torment mankind for five months. The earth will keep chugging along happily unless we succeed in damaging or destroying it. We should probably concentrate our efforts towards not destroying it, rather than await its destruction in the hopes that we can reinterpret it as a biblical apocalypse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #75 September 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat's written in the book of Revelations is about to come true. Care to elaborate, or will you be vague in your prediction of the end time like all the others? I too would be interested in hearing the details of said theory. I would also be interested in a nap. Lunch was filling. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
