Michele 1
Another School shooting- An Amish school 6 dead No this is not a joke I wish it was.
By
Darius11, in Speakers Corner
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DZJ 0
Just out of interest, do these school shootings ever actually prompt change? It just seems that these things happen periodically (or sometimes in a sudden rash), there's a period of general chitchat about the ills of the world and how awful it all is, and then sooner rather than later everyone concludes the perpetrators were just really reaaaally bad people and it's somehow exceptional.
I'm just wondering if the hand-wringing and cries 'Oh my! How horrible!' ever actually result in a change in attitudes or values, or if America is now so used to these sorts of things that they no longer have any impact besides on anything besides newspaper headlines? Do these things no longer shock?
I'm just wondering if the hand-wringing and cries 'Oh my! How horrible!' ever actually result in a change in attitudes or values, or if America is now so used to these sorts of things that they no longer have any impact besides on anything besides newspaper headlines? Do these things no longer shock?
Richards 0
Quotejust that parents are to busy working and making money to be parents. I am a firm believer that one parent should stay at home and raise the kids.
Thats almost impossible these days. Salaries are not keeping up with inflation and housing prices on average are going through the roof. Parents aren't both working because they are materialistic yuppies. They are both working in many cases because that is the only way to make ends met. Reality does not conform to normative expectations.
Richards
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
Richards 0
QuoteThe other two pieces to that puzzle are Johnnies inclinations towards starting fires, and wetting the bed. Are parents whose children play with fire and wet the bed bad parents too?
Children have a natural fascination with fire and some kids are bedwetters. How can either of those issues compare to torturing an animal?
Richards
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
Michele 1
QuoteChildren have a natural fascination with fire and some kids are bedwetters. How can either of those issues compare to torturing an animal?
They're not comparable, per se. However, ROK is citing a series of studies which demonstrated that serial killers showed a higher propensity towards enuresis (bed wetting far beyond normal limits) and fire fascination (in some instances arson convictions).
The triad, as it's known, measures those who have been convicted of serial killings (not a spree killing, mind you...) has been found in some degree or other in all serial killers that have consented to be interviewed. This grouping of behavior shows a tendancy towards victimization (the torturing of animals), impulse control (enuresis), and enjoyment of distruction (arson, fire fascination).
It was thought that if one could identify precursor behavior, one might be able to intervene and prevent serial killers from acting on their fantasies. However, it was also discovered that many children had this triad but were not serial killers; therefore, it was concluded, that the degree of the triad was important, but also they concluded that it might not be predictable precursor behavior.
Ciels-
Michele
(Edited for clarification...)
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
micro 0
QuoteQuotejust that parents are to busy working and making money to be parents. I am a firm believer that one parent should stay at home and raise the kids.
Thats almost impossible these days. Salaries are not keeping up with inflation and housing prices on average are going through the roof. Parents aren't both working because they are materialistic yuppies. They are both working in many cases because that is the only way to make ends met. Reality does not conform to normative expectations.
Richards
mmm gotta disagree w/ you there... in many cases, as I've seen from personal experience, it's a matter of what are the priorities of the parents in question... what is the debt... what is the size/cost of the house, type of car(s) and other choices/luxuries, etc. that they own or utilize. It's not easy to live as a one-income family these days, if you buy into the materialist myths that our consumerist society propagates. Even if families don't buy into them, it takes sacrifices, which is something that people today, in an individualist culture, are not used to making for the sake of others.
We don't buy into these myths. I have 4 kids, my wife "retired" as a teacher, we homeschool, and we're VERY creative about how we make our ends meet. We're not rich by any means. I have undergrad and grad debt that rivals our mortgage. Used cars, garage sales, consignment clothes for young kids who are just going to stain them and tear holes in them anyway, hand me downs, make-your-own furniture, etc.... However, we believe that it is crucial to the well-being of our kids to have a parent at home w/ them. While we're not financially wealthy, our kids are rich beyond measure b/c of our choices.
One last thing... before people flame me, as they sometimes do when I state my opinions, let me say that some families HAVE to have both parents working and have NO choice... I recognize this and don't condemn this... not my place. But I do think that the parents should work towards alleviating the situation they're in that requires the double income.
(just my 2 pence, flamers
)I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...
Richards 0
What can I say. I stand corrected.
Richards
Richards
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
Richards 0
Quotemmm gotta disagree w/ you there... in many cases, as I've seen from personal experience, it's a matter of what are the priorities of the parents in question... what is the debt... what is the size/cost of the house, type of car(s) and other choices/luxuries, etc. that they own or utilize. It's not easy to live as a one-income family these days, if you buy into the materialist myths that our consumerist society propagates. Even if families don't buy into them, it takes sacrifices, which is something that people today, in an individualist culture, are not used to making for the sake of others.
We don't buy into these myths. I have 4 kids, my wife "retired" as a teacher, we homeschool, and we're VERY creative about how we make our ends meet. We're not rich by any means. I have undergrad and grad debt that rivals our mortgage. Used cars, garage sales, consignment clothes for young kids who are just going to stain them and tear holes in them anyway, hand me downs, make-your-own furniture, etc.... However, we believe that it is crucial to the well-being of our kids to have a parent at home w/ them. While we're not financially wealthy, our kids are rich beyond measure b/c of our choices.
One last thing... before people flame me, as they sometimes do when I state my opinions, let me say that some families HAVE to have both parents working and have NO choice... I recognize this and don't condemn this... not my place. But I do think that the parents should work towards alleviating the situation they're in that requires the double income.
(just my 2 pence, flamers
I acknowledge that it can be done by some but there are many who cannot. Your profile says you are a research analyst , and you have refered to having a grad degree. Not trying to nitpick but there is a large portion of society that are likely in a much lower income bracket than you are. For some couples without kids to spend on, they are barely paying their mortgage and putting away for retirement. I agree that our society's tendency to put materialistic needs first is unfortunate but that does not fit a large portion of our workforce. Many families have one spouse working in a non-union blue collar job and one working as a temp or receptionist. Employers are demanding more for less nowadays and many jobs simply sub-contract positions out to staffing agencies who pay thier people next to nothing.
Good for you that you can do it but realistically many people simply cannot.
Richards
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
micro 0
QuoteQuotemmm gotta disagree w/ you there... in many cases, as I've seen from personal experience, it's a matter of what are the priorities of the parents in question... what is the debt... what is the size/cost of the house, type of car(s) and other choices/luxuries, etc. that they own or utilize. It's not easy to live as a one-income family these days, if you buy into the materialist myths that our consumerist society propagates. Even if families don't buy into them, it takes sacrifices, which is something that people today, in an individualist culture, are not used to making for the sake of others.
We don't buy into these myths. I have 4 kids, my wife "retired" as a teacher, we homeschool, and we're VERY creative about how we make our ends meet. We're not rich by any means. I have undergrad and grad debt that rivals our mortgage. Used cars, garage sales, consignment clothes for young kids who are just going to stain them and tear holes in them anyway, hand me downs, make-your-own furniture, etc.... However, we believe that it is crucial to the well-being of our kids to have a parent at home w/ them. While we're not financially wealthy, our kids are rich beyond measure b/c of our choices.
One last thing... before people flame me, as they sometimes do when I state my opinions, let me say that some families HAVE to have both parents working and have NO choice... I recognize this and don't condemn this... not my place. But I do think that the parents should work towards alleviating the situation they're in that requires the double income.
(just my 2 pence, flamers
I acknowledge that it can be done by some but there are many who cannot. Your profile says you are a research analyst , and you have refered to having a grad degree. Not trying to nitpick but there is a large portion of society that are likely in a much lower income bracket than you are. For some couples without kids to spend on, they are barely paying their mortgage and putting away for retirement. I agree that our society's tendency to put materialistic needs first is unfortunate but that does not fit a large portion of our workforce. Many families have one spouse working in a non-union blue collar job and one working as a temp or receptionist. Employers are demanding more for less nowadays and many jobs simply sub-contract positions out to staffing agencies who pay thier people next to nothing.
Good for you that you can do it but realistically many people simply cannot.
Richards
Know what my net worth is? It's not black, lets just say that. Savings? Nope. We live paycheck to paycheck. Be careful w/ assumptions. They often get you into trouble. I may have a healthy salary, but I have a healthy amount of debt that eats it as well.
We're not able to do what we do b/c of my salary. We do what we do b/c of the sacrifices we/ve made.
I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...
not only that, but his DZ suggests he lives in midwest, away from the giant cities. The cost of living there is marked lower.
Where I live a 100,000 income doesn't qualify you to buy a home, at least not one for a family. San Francisco is land of the DINKs.
Where I live a 100,000 income doesn't qualify you to buy a home, at least not one for a family. San Francisco is land of the DINKs.
Lindsey 0
I acknowledge that it can be done by some but there are many who cannot.
I don't think there's anyone who *can't*. But many of us choose not to, either because it's simply not as high of a priority or we didn't plan that way. Not having planned is not the same as "can't, " imho.
I believe that children can thrive, and parents can nurture their children, whether or not they work outside the home. My child is a WONDERFUL example of how kids in an almost-opposite situation to micro's can thrive. And on the other side of the coin, having a parent home doesn't assure that a child will be well-adjusted.
linz
I don't think there's anyone who *can't*. But many of us choose not to, either because it's simply not as high of a priority or we didn't plan that way. Not having planned is not the same as "can't, " imho.
I believe that children can thrive, and parents can nurture their children, whether or not they work outside the home. My child is a WONDERFUL example of how kids in an almost-opposite situation to micro's can thrive. And on the other side of the coin, having a parent home doesn't assure that a child will be well-adjusted.
linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
pirana 0
QuoteHow do the suicide bombers and their parents relate to the Amish school shooting?
They don't. The only common thread is that people died. Any other link is just fabricated to fulfill someone's agenda.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
rehmwa 2
Quoteor if America is now so used to these sorts of things that they no longer have any impact besides on anything besides newspaper headlines?
only america in your mind, huh?
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
DZJ 0
I don't think I fully get your meaning, but I think you're misreading me. It's not my intention to bash the States, I'm just wondering whether these awful events actually have any effect on the way people/society view things.
As an outside observer, the fact that these things keep recurring seems to say no, but I was just wondering if there was more to it.
As an outside observer, the fact that these things keep recurring seems to say no, but I was just wondering if there was more to it.
Maybe if the media would stop publicizing so much of it! 
I believe research has shown that suicide rates go up during highly publicized suicides. I don't see why school shootings would be any different.
Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...
I believe research has shown that suicide rates go up during highly publicized suicides. I don't see why school shootings would be any different.
Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...
Amazon 7
QuoteAs an outside observer, the fact that these things keep recurring seems to say no, but I was just wondering if there was more to it
Many people are trying to figure out how to make our schools safer... but when even the most innocent.. the Amish.. are attacked in their enclave then we have a real long way to go.
They keep occurring because the defective humans who do these things see and hear about these instances and I think seek to get their 15 minutes of fame in this most horrible way.
ROK 0
QuoteQuoteThe other two pieces to that puzzle are Johnnies inclinations towards starting fires, and wetting the bed. Are parents whose children play with fire and wet the bed bad parents too?
Children have a natural fascination with fire and some kids are bedwetters. How can either of those issues compare to torturing an animal?
Richards
I grabbed this out of am article. There can be three pretty dominant signs that someone is going to be a bit bent when they mature...
John Douglas at 4:14pm ET
Yes. The early warning signs generally will show up before kindergarten, in pre-school. If attempts are not made to change some of these behavioral patterns, law enforcement will probably be investigating a crime perpetrated by this person in the future. Some of the early warning signs I've written about in the past include arson, bed wetting due to emotional (not physiological) problems and animal cruelty. If attempts are not made to counsel this child, the basic thinking pattern will be set and it will become very difficult to change this child's behavior by the time he or she may even get to middle school.
The shooter, in a conversation with his wife while the man was holding the girls hostage, stated he had molested 2 little girls when he was 12 (I believe they were relations, but not sure), had been tormented by guilt, and plagued by dreams of him molesting girls again. He further stated (although its unclear as to if it were in the same conversation or in one of the notes he left behind) that he thought God hated him and took his preemie daughter from them because of him (she had died several years ago). I might have that last part wrong; it might be that he hated God...
And the latest information is that 5 have died, and others still in critical condition. One family lost one daughter with another in critical condition, one family lost two daughters.
Horrific, tragic, utterly needless shooting, to some of the most peaceful people imaginable. The "Plain People" culture is an awe-inspiring, quiet, joining of life and faith, and one which I personally admire (and am unable to emmulate in the least). To victimize the least of this comparatively peaceful population is apalling.
I am sickened and saddened by this whole event.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
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