Animal Cruelty

[Royd 0]

I've scanned the thread occasionally since it started.

I do not believe in the abuse of animals for the sake of pleasure.

After that, abuse is a rather subjective word. Some people want to take the carriages off of the streets of St. Augustine because the poor horses have to work in the heat all day.

Who's carriage would you ride in, the one with the sleek healthy horse or the one with the hip bones showing? That sounds self regulating to me.

As for commercial production of meat, the logistics and cost of free range meat would be exorbitant.

Imagine the cost of the Thankgiving turkey that had to be captured out of 1,000 acres of woods.

I believe they call that turkey hunting.

How many people would it take to gather the eggs from free range chickens for all of those people who barely even know where an egg comes from?

Personally, I see no problem with chickens running loose. Free meat for the homeless. See, I really do care.
The problem is that city folks don't want to be awakened at 4:30 AM by some rooster telling the world that he's the big man on the block.

[freeflybella 0]

Please do the research. Please don't just peruse this thread for your info on what factory farming is like.

This isn't totally directed at you Royd but everyone.

Yeah, internet debate means taking hard lines and posting as if you're an expert.

I'm no expert. I suspect none of you are either. We're just raising the issue because it's a cause we've done research into and care about.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[jakee 1,562]

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As for commercial production of meat, the logistics and cost of free range meat would be exorbitant.

Imagine the cost of the Thankgiving turkey that had to be captured out of 1,000 acres of woods.

I believe they call that turkey hunting.

How many people would it take to gather the eggs from free range chickens for all of those people who barely even know where an egg comes from?

Personally, I see no problem with chickens running loose. Free meat for the homeless. See, I really do care.
The problem is that city folks don't want to be awakened at 4:30 AM by some rooster telling the world that he's the big man on the block.

So there is no middle ground between hens kept in cages to small for them to move (think, can't spread their wings or stand up - ever) and completely free range hens that aren't even fenced in?

That is weak

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,068]

>There's no evidence either way that organic foods result in a healthier
>outcome for the eater.

Well, antibiotics definitely have a health effect - they contribute to antibiotic resistance in consumers. In other words, if you eat meats that are high in antibiotics, there's a better chance that infections in that person will not respond to antibiotics.

The area that most people misunderstand (I think) is that organic foods have more vitamins or something. They don't.

[freeflybella 0]

Added to Bill's reply:

Organically raised also means they are not being fed pesticides. And absolutely those are unhealthy for you to ingest.

Additionally, they are not genetically modified, given growth hormone or being fed genetically modified food, food that contains remnants of other animals (that can sicken the meat) etc.

So, I'd say that is enough anecdotal proof that organic is healthier.

Finally, and I could be wrong here, but I think that people who choose to be mindful of something as easily ignored as their food sources, probably are mindful of their overall health in general. While this doesn't prove eating organic directly makes you healthier - I'd say that adopting a mindset of education instead of blind trust when it comes to your food supply will absolutely result in a healthier you.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[quack 0]

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>There's no evidence either way that organic foods result in a healthier
>outcome for the eater.

Well, antibiotics definitely have a health effect - they contribute to antibiotic resistance in consumers. In other words, if you eat meats that are high in antibiotics, there's a better chance that infections in that person will not respond to antibiotics.

The area that most people misunderstand (I think) is that organic foods have more vitamins or something. They don't.

That's certainly possible, with antibiotic resistance (AR). The animal producers claim that since non-(human) medical antibiotics are used as growth promoters there isn't cross-resistance. But AR through cross-resistance has been observed.

I personally don't like the sub-therapeutic use of antibiotics because of the possibility of AR. This feeling is based on the fact that drug companies aren't developing new drugs - it's just too expensive - and human health will suffer in the end, when microbes become resistant from all their reasons. I know, I'm anthropomorphising microbes now...

As for meat containing the drugs, that's why there are withdrawal times at the farm level. If an animal contains antibiotics prior to shipping time, they aren't shipped. Meat should not contain the drugs, and if it is present, certainly not at high levels. The concern is for those persons who may be highly sensitive / allergic to the antibiotics.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[Skyrad 0]

Check out Bassatin

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/investigations/archive.shtml

Not nice.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[quack 0]

I agree that people should pay more attention to what's in their food and do the research. However there is a huge market share now in what started out as a niche market, with respect to organic products. People are willing to pay three times the price just for that label, thinking it to be healthier because of certain production practices.

For example, organically produced animals are still given antibiotics when they are sick. There's not a producer out there who would let the animal suffer, and this is accepted practice. The drugs just are not used as growth promoters.

Genetically modified (GM) foods are everywhere as well. People would be very surprised to learn how much GM they come in contact with. In cheese-making, for instance, most of the rennet used is produced by a GM organism.

And that is all before a person goes home to cook their food. Meat charred on a bbq can contain all kinds of carcinogenic compounds, just because of the high heat. The bbq doesn't care if it is organic or conventionally produced meat.

So what am I saying? Just that a balance has to be struck between worrying too much about the content of the food product and as you say blindly trusting.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[freeflybella 0]

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However there is a huge market share now in what started out as a niche market, with respect to organic products. People are willing to pay three times the price just for that label, thinking it to be healthier because of certain production practices.

I addressed this in an earlier post here.

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organically produced animals are still given antibiotics when they are sick.

And this, too. When they are sick is MUCH different than over the course of the animal's lifetime.

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Genetically modified (GM) foods are everywhere as well. People would be very surprised to learn how much GM they come in contact with. In cheese-making, for instance, most of the rennet used is produced by a GM organism.

Doesn't surprise me at all. I do know that most conventionally grown food is genetically modified. That's why I choose organic whenever possible and abstain totally from animal products.

But I would agree that it probably would surprise most people - which why I talk about it. Which is why I'm glad the OP started this thread. And why I hope people really will take an interest.

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a balance has to be struck between worrying too much about the content of the food product and as you say blindly trusting.

Sure. That's what I advocate. Figure out for yourself what you're able to live with and what you're willing to condone by direct or indirect action.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[quack 0]

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I addressed this in an earlier post here.

I wasn't referring to the practices of companies like Tyson and people buying organic to avoid helping them out financially.

I meant the perceived human health benefits of eating organic being the driver for that choice. Production practices such as no pesticide use, which were mentioned in an earlier post, are one of them. However, organic production does allow some synthetic pesticide use. As well, some non-synthetic pesticides are just as toxic as their synthetic counterparts, and in some cases more toxic to humans. I believe that many people mistakenly think that organic means 100% natural, which it doesn't. The point is that choosing organic doesn't mean completely avoiding potential hazards in the food.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[freeflybella 0]

I'm not sure where your info comes from regarding the use of synthetic pesticides in organic production but I'd love for you to elaborate.

The fact is, organic is better for you. Nothing is perfect - there will always be potential hazards.

But if (again as I mentioned earlier) you add up the toxic load over a lifetime, choosing organic vegetables and meat is much, much better than conventionally grown. Especially for children.

And choosing an organic vegan diet is even better!

Aside from the health issues and getting back to the point of this thread, animal torture happens in the name of greed and mass food production to supply our families with funky meat, milk and eggs. Opt out and save yourself and a few million animals in the process. (<---hardline internet debate rhetoric)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

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http://www.ciwf.org.uk/...ations/archive.shtml

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[quack 0]

OK, from my post I can see that it could be misinterpreted. There are many synthetic substances in use in organic production, some of which are used to control the undesirable critters, as pesticides. No conventional synthetics are allowed.

This is from the National Organic Program of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA): Regulatory Text

In: 205.601 "Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production", there is an extensive list of synthetics. Now, mind that there are strict controls on their use and all, but the fact is, organic production makes use of more than just natural compounds.

I still stand by the fact that many of the so-called natural or non-synthetic substances are just as harmful to human health. But that is another thread for another day.

Like you say, back to the thread's intent. I applaud your conviction with your diet and arguments, even if I'm not convinced myself.

K

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[PLFXpert 0]

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Who's carriage would you ride in, the one with the sleek healthy horse or the one with the hip bones showing? That sounds self regulating to me

I wouldn't ride in either; and if I saw the later I'd alert animal care & control.

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As for commercial production of meat, the logistics and cost of free range meat would be exorbitant.

Please provide your personal reasons why with legitimate sources to back. Based on my own research (and it's not an easy thing to post/explain, as I previously mentioned) I disagree.

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How many people would it take to gather the eggs from free range chickens for all of those people who barely even know where an egg comes from?

Egg-cellent. More jobs!

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The problem is that city folks don't want to be awakened at 4:30 AM by some rooster telling the world that he's the big man on the block.

I'm not sure what you mean. Where did having roosters in the city come into the conversation?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I'd say that adopting a mindset of education instead of blind trust when it comes to your food supply will absolutely result in a healthier you.

Absolutely! Nicely put.
And thank you for the other responses. I'm glad to have a little help from this side of the discussion being that I just checked in to see there had been several responses since I last checked back.

I've been super-busy. But, I definitely plan on more threads like this in the future.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[freeflybella 0]

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I applaud your conviction with your diet and arguments, even if I'm not convinced myself.

Honestly, I didn't expect to convince anyone!

But I do hope I (and PLFXpert) have raised enough interest that you and/or others will learn more about the conditions that millions of animals live and die in every day for the sake of polluted meat, eggs and dairy products!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[PLFXpert 0]

Yes, dairy might just be the topic of "Animal Cruelty--Part Two".

I LOVE cheese so admitedly dairy has always been a little difficult to eliminate; but at the very least when I purchase it, it is with a conscious mind.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Royd 0]

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The problem is that city folks don't want to be awakened at 4:30 AM by some rooster telling the world that he's the big man on the block.

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I'm not sure what you mean. Where did having roosters in the city come into the conversation?

We're talking free range here, no? Chickens would survive quite nicely in the big city, along with their cousins, the pigeons.

[billvon 3,068]

>We're talking free range here, no? Chickens would survive quite
>nicely in the big city, along with their cousins, the pigeons.

"Free range" does not mean "they can rent apartments in Manhattan" nor does it mean "they will live in Central Park." Here in the USA, it means they can wander about the farm or pen they live in (as opposed to being confined to boxes or sheds.)

[Royd 0]

As for commercial production of meat, the logistics and cost of free range meat would be exorbitant.

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Please provide your personal reasons why with legitimate sources to back. Based on my own research (and it's not an easy thing to post/explain, as I previously mentioned) I disagree.

First, I'm a bit of a rookie on the internet, so chasing down info and reposting it is beyond me right now.

To answer the question as I observe things, beef cattle are raised pretty much free range to a point. At that point in the production cycle, the meat is lean, and probably a bit tough.
That's where feedlots come in. The cattle are fattened at this point, and due to the physical restraint of the pens, they do not get as much exercise. All of this is done for the purpose of providing a higher quality meat that consumers will actually buy.
Yes, they have to stand around in their manure for a few weeks, but I doubt very much that they are aware of it.
If you are downwind of a feedlot it smells horrendous, but to the cattleman that's the smell of money.

I know your post is about animal abuse, and I never watched the first video simply because I don't need to. I raised rabbits for meat for about six years, and the act of slaughtering them is not a pretty picture. It is simply something that you have to harden yourself to if it is going to be part of your lifestyle.

Obviously, you are not a full blown vegan, as you say that you eat cheese.

The problem with their mentality is that all livestock,and any number of wild animals, which are hunted for meat, would have to be reduced to the point where there would only be a few in a zoo somewhere.

I saw at least four dead deer between my house and the dz this Sat. Obviously, they aren't being hunted enough.

[PLFXpert 0]

I'm having a tough time following your logic, Royd.

Although, I believe we have already addressed some of your points (beef cattle, quality of meat, etc.)

Regarding rabbits and hunting, I am quite situationally opinionated. That would be another discussion altogether.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Skyrad 0]

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http://www.ciwf.org.uk/...ations/archive.shtml

Bloody awful eh?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 3,068]

>All of this is done for the purpose of providing a higher quality meat
>that consumers will actually buy.

I don't eat beef very often, but when I do, we generally get organic free-range beef. It tastes considerably better than 'regular' beef. Part of it is diet - they eat grass (which their digestive systems are designed for) instead of grain.

>If you are downwind of a feedlot it smells horrendous, but to the
>cattleman that's the smell of money.

You've hit upon the real reason cattle are treated as they are. Feedlots are not the best way to prepare cattle for market, but they are definitely the cheapest. And cost is still a primary driver for consumers.

[PLFXpert 0]

Thanks for your input, Bill. Excellent!

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And cost is still a primary driver for consumers.

I can be quite stingy myself and am definitely the type who comparison shops the hell out of things and pits the different companies against each other until one wins my dollar.

But, I am quite the opposite when it comes to what I will put in and in some cases on my body (ie: mositurizers, etc.). Certainly I understand living on a budget, but I do not understand putting quality of food at the bottom of it. And I'm not talking quality as in caviar. It could simply be the quality of the sack of potatoes one buys.

A very close, dear friend of mine lives paycheck to paycheck and it isn't much. She's been having major health problems and was instructed by her doctor she needed a major diet overhaul. She enlisted my help. The first thing I told her was she would likely pay almost double what she currently was spending on food. I actually re-did her entire weekly, monthly, & yearly budget for her and by the time I was finished, she had enough money in her same budget for the better quality food, still enjoy the same play activities she enjoyed before and even had a little bit leftover to actually put away into a small savings each week, month, etc.

I think where there's a will there's a way in nearly everything. When something seems impossible or one is scared they might have to make a sacrifice then they typically forget about it altogether and worse, end up going to the opposite extreme.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think where there's a will there's a way in nearly everything.

Certainly. But now you have to convince all those people that you're better able to determine what's best for them. Otherwise they'll not be interested.