Animal Cruelty

[D22369 0]

just plain agressiveness is not such an inherited behavior? I think not. Just because there are many nice pit bulls doesn't mean they are just as safe as a golden retriever when a kid does something to make it mad.
***


you confuse aggressive with viscious. the two are not interchangeable.

My Staffordshire terrier is the dz dog, when i lived on the dz he met new students and their families on a very regular basis, and never got chained up unless he started stepping on gear. He has never been in a dogfight, never bit anyone, never even hurt a cat (loves to chase them)

How many thousands of pitbulls do you never ever hear about cause they never cause any problems...



--->no way in hell would I trust a pit bull as much as many others. ***

maybe if you actually knew anything about the breed other than the minority that makes it into the papers and on tv...

did you know their are some pits that are being used as search and rescue dogs? did you know about the pitbulls that are regularly taken to retirement homes to cheer up the elderly there?

naaa, you didnt care to know things like this, your opinion was formed long ago, and nothing like facts could change it .... right?



here is a true story that happend about 4 years ago, my dog was 2yrs old at the time, I had just landed from video'n a tandem, was inside near the front door of our shack packing to make the next load and kept hearing this hollow "thunk" ... "thunk".....repeated about 10-15 times.....I couldnt place the noise so I walked outside, there was a 4 year old little girl smacking my at the time 65lb dog on the head with a wooden hammer..... other than flinching... he did nothing... I on the other hand about bit the mothers head off (she was sitting 10' away watching)
the majority of pitts love children, believe it or not.

for your education I would recommend the book "bully breeds" I dont know the author, but its available at petsmart.


now all that said, I will admit to the potential damage a pit could inflict, their jaws are very strong, (they do not lock) and a mistreated pit would be a great threat to anyone.... but a well trained and loved animal isnt quite the threat most people think.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Richards 0]

Depressing. I'm not a big fan of these tree hugging "Peace, love, go hug a gay baby whale" groups but needless cruelty should be investigated and prosecuted. Yes it is OK to kill to eat but there is a moral/ethical obligation to act like an advanced species, which means treating innocent life forms in a humane manner.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[lawrocket 3]

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and will then allow the production and sale of paté and veal...Talk about hypocrisy.

What about Certified Humane veal?

Is this okay?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mnealtx 0]

According to a German friend, "Brown eggs come from happy chickens".

Genetics don't have a thing to do with it, nope...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PLFXpert 0]

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The satisfaction I get when I prosecute someone for animal cruelty is awesome. People always ask me how I feel after, and I always tell them there are no words to describe it, I just feel a certain way and it the best feeling in the world.

The best feeling AND likely keeping humans safer as well being that those more likely to abuse/neglect animals are also more likely to do the same to humans.

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I have put thousands of animal to sleep and that makes me feel pretty shity. People always tell me that they could not do my job because they love animals to much. I always tell them, it is because I love animals so much that I do my job.

I've recently reduced my donations to the Humane Society of the U.S. b/c of their new "safe animal shelter" policies. (Here alone where I live as soon as our local Humane Society shelter went "no kill" the Animal Care & Control was overflooded and have to put many adoptable animals to sleep each day; not to mention what people do to their animals after trying to drop them off at the Humane Society which is full and no longer accepting new animals, and thus people resort to horrible other options of getting rid of their unwanted pet.) I believe in humane uthanization. I love that there are those like you who can handle such on a daily basis. It would be very, very hard for me not to take them all in.

I said I wouldn't reply to any more posts not having to do with my topic, but well, yours sort-of did and as I mentioned earlier; we all make exceptions as it suits us.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[freeflybella 0]

That depends on YOUR definitiion of "Okay" and "hypocrisy".

Do I think putting a label of Certified Humane on a package of meat will do more:

a. to get consumers thinking about their food choices

b. the conditions in which their food is raised and slaughtered and

c. WHY a label professing humane treatment is needed

- than not having that label? Yes.


Is it enough, in my opinion? No.

Do I believe that all mass production farms are cruel. Yes.

Will you be sending a message that you care about the welfare of food animals by putting your money toward only meat with a Certified Humane and Organic label? Yes.

Over time, could that have any even greater impact? Absolutely.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[PLFXpert 0]

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The point I always try to make is just 'be thoughtful'. Be willing to witness what's going on, be open to even small changes that (if you believe in the butterfly effect) may make a difference.

So true!
I posted a link earlier in the thread to my philosophy--The Young Man & the Starfish.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Depressing. I'm not a big fan of these tree hugging "Peace, love, go hug a gay baby whale" groups but needless cruelty should be investigated and prosecuted. Yes it is OK to kill to eat but there is a moral/ethical obligation to act like an advanced species, which means treating innocent life forms in a humane manner.

Well if by "tree hugging 'Peace, love, go hug a gay baby whale' groups'" you mean "extremists" () then I agree 100%.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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That depends on YOUR definitiion of "Okay" and "hypocrisy".

Do I think putting a label of Certified Humane on a package of meat will do more:

a. to get consumers thinking about their food choices

b. the conditions in which their food is raised and slaughtered and

c. WHY a label professing humane treatment is needed

- than not having that label? Yes.


Is it enough, in my opinion? No.

Do I believe that all mass production farms are cruel. Yes.

Will you be sending a message that you care about the welfare of food animals by putting your money toward only meat with a Certified Humane and Organic label? Yes.

Over time, could that have any even greater impact? Absolutely

You're not as bad at debate as you thought.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[freeflybella 0]

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Certified Humane veal?

From the website you linked to:

" HFAC’s Animal Care Standards for all farm animals mandate that feedstuffs must be free from antibiotics, growth-promoting hormones and mammalian-derived proteins, with the exception of milk and milk products. Calves must be given roughage by the age of five weeks. Since dairy beef calves are marketed at a young age, castration and dehorning are not allowed.

Compassionate, gentle handling is a requirement throughout the production system, and the use of electric prods is prohibited. Buying calves from auction barns and sales barns is not permitted. Calves may only be purchased from the dairy where they were born and transported directly to the farm where they will be raised. Transport time is limited to less than three hours. All calves must have access to adequate space to stretch out and lay comfortably."

Do YOU understand the implications of what they are saying?

(Hint: Veal calves are removed immediately from their mothers. Most veal calves are dehorned and castrated at birth. Many if not most newborn veal calves travel in crates for days without food. Most veal calves are chained in a pen so they can't move AN INCH. Most veal calves live 40 DAYS (not 3 hours) on a diet to keep them anemic - and they live that way in dark, restricted pens without AN OUNCE of comfort (physical or emotional).)

I would like to know what % of this company's veal production is Certified Humane. I bet it's not high. According to what I've heard, it's the restriction from ANY movement and totally iron-free diet that produces the 'best' veal.

I personally could never support the mass-production farm animal industry - "Certified Humane" or not.

But by nature we all resist change - it has to happen slowly. And when you realize that, it makes it easier to believe that your one little tiny individual effort really makes a difference in the world.

Compassion, no matter how slight, is better than none.

This is how most veal calves exist.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Steel 0]

So, there we have it! Pit bulls aren't lovable like other animals! Therefore, they are worthy of being destroyed.

-------------------------------------------------------

You know sometimes, I think you are one of the more intelligible people here and then you go and make statements like this.

I have no intention to sit and debate this all day long, so I will just make this post in response. Having had a pitbull (which was the most loveable dog I ever saw) for 15 happy years, I know that this statement is a crock. To go even further my sister has a pitbull that is 10 years old and with the time I spent around that dog is also enough to that your statement was a crock. Then there is my grandmother who had a pitbull that sadly died at 7 years old. But that dog too proved to me that your statement was a crock. Come to think of it your statement seems to be utter ignorance which I have heard time and time again by people who just don't know any better.

Its true drug dealers and assholes who like to fight pitbulls tend to pick these dogs but the problem there is NOT the dogs its the OWNERS.

Going by that logic one would want to make guns illegal because bad people might get their hands on them.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Michele 1]

(Steel, Jer was being sarcastic...and pointing out the hypocrasy of PETA w/ regards to pit bulls....


Just thought I'd let you know....)

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Steel 0]

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(Steel, Jer was being sarcastic...and pointing out the hypocrasy of PETA w/ regards to pit bulls....


Just thought I'd let you know....)

Well then my appologies for the misunderstanding. I guess the that is another fault of PETA.
As much as I wish there was a good sensible organization to protect animals, statements like these suggest to me there there aren't.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Richards 0]

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Well if by "tree hugging 'Peace, love, go hug a gay baby whale' groups'" you mean "extremists" () then I agree 100%.

[sundevil777 102]

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I have no intention to sit and debate this all day long, so I will just make this post in response. Having had a pitbull (which was the most loveable dog I ever saw) for 15 happy years, I know that this statement is a crock. To go even further my sister has a pitbull that is 10 years old and with the time I spent around that dog is also enough to that your statement was a crock. Then there is my grandmother who had a pitbull that sadly died at 7 years old. But that dog too proved to me that your statement was a crock. Come to think of it your statement seems to be utter ignorance which I have heard time and time again by people who just don't know any better.

Its true drug dealers and assholes who like to fight pitbulls tend to pick these dogs but the problem there is NOT the dogs its the OWNERS.

So, your conclusion that pit bulls are no more likely to do harm is based on what? 3 instances. That is hardly convincing.

What about the instances where it appears there was no mistreatment? It must all be a big conspiracy.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Butters 0]

I believe we should treat animals ethically but I feel we spend to many resources on this issue when there are humans who are not treated ethically.

PS: Watch the discovery channel when they show predators killing prey. There are some predators that keep their prey alive while eating.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Steel 0]

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I have no intention to sit and debate this all day long, so I will just make this post in response. Having had a pitbull (which was the most loveable dog I ever saw) for 15 happy years, I know that this statement is a crock. To go even further my sister has a pitbull that is 10 years old and with the time I spent around that dog is also enough to that your statement was a crock. Then there is my grandmother who had a pitbull that sadly died at 7 years old. But that dog too proved to me that your statement was a crock. Come to think of it your statement seems to be utter ignorance which I have heard time and time again by people who just don't know any better.

Its true drug dealers and assholes who like to fight pitbulls tend to pick these dogs but the problem there is NOT the dogs its the OWNERS.

So, your conclusion that pit bulls are no more likely to do harm is based on what? 3 instances. That is hardly convincing.

What about the instances where it appears there was no mistreatment? It must all be a big conspiracy.

No i think its a little bit more than just 3 isolated incidents. Its a 100% success rate on the breed where I know the dogs were treated well. My pitbull also has several litters of puppies and all the people who were freinds of my family that we kept in touch with had similar positive experiences with the puppy we gave them.

For your case in which pitbulls turn out to be bad that supposedly had no mistreatement, I have also seen Labs that were raised nicely that turned out to be vicious. If you knew anything about breeding you would know that agression is something that could be found in any breed. A responsible breeder should know that when a dog like this is identified, it should not be used for breeding purposes.
But if you wish to spout off ignorance on the matter and just bash the whole breed, since there is nothing I can do about, I will just hope that there are enough people who know better to make your ignorant opinion irrelevent.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[PLFXpert 0]

What the article's author was really saying.

Freeflybella, excellent link on veal cows. fois gras) just as many are unaware how even everyday meats get to their local grocers.

It can be overwhelming to some to go down the list of every farmed animal, all the inhumanity, etc. in one sitting. I try to stick to one thing at a time.

It's like smoking. I myself have only had one puff of one cigarette in my life. Good friends & family however have been addicts at some point in their lives. All knew the horrors of smoking, yet it was also difficult for all to quit; and different methods worked. Billy quit smoking cold turkey five years ago and that worked wonders for him. Cold turkey is also how I quit eating meat. But for my mother, a gradual reduction of cigarettes is what worked. And for Billy, a gradual reduction in how much and what kind of meats he eats works better. Thus, I tell people about Butterball turkey today (and offer an alternative) and later I'll tell them about something else. I just believe it's a more effective way of getting a message across for some. When people feel overwhelmed they're likely to just say to hell with it all altogether rather than take baby steps and realize that even those small steps DO make a difference.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lawrocket 3]

There is but one prime reason I would purchase "Certified Humane" meat and dairy - if it tastes better. My assumption is that it does taste better - the more stress-free the animal is, the better the quality of the meat. (Hence, I would expect that I my meat be tough and gristly.)

From a value standpoint, the "Certified Humane" program is laudworthy. To clear up any confusion, I seriously do not have a problem with it. I like the goal of paper trails and the goal of giving wide open spaces to animals. I understand what they are trying to do.

But I will not say that all mass production farms are cruel. Some of it is. Some of it is not. My belief is that there is a good market for this, and that is great. It's a market that satisfies people's needs and desires, which is fantastic.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

You state your opinions on PETA, the good and the bad, thats commendable that you are able to support something because of the good in-spite of the bad. However what about the fact that because of their bad, their good may be mis-judged? In any type of job, there will be people who abuse their power.... from Enron, to the local gas station. Some employees will do deeds that get them fired, when they are caught. Do you think the employees at butterball are TRAINED to do what that video claims? I doubt its in the employee handbook that they get to stomp on the stomachs until the intestines come out the cloaca.

Take out the one person who was talking, and the two people who were using excessive force and you have a company who keeps, and slaughters turkeys. Putting them in cages , then on hooks, then in a cold water rinse and then cutting the necks is a common method and it is less painful then cutting their necks without the cold bath. Im not so much concerned that a few employees did that, it should be expected in all walks of life... what I am concerned about is what Butterball did once they found out because I do not condone the actions but I will not hold the company responisble for actions of employees if they did not know what was happening.... now they do, I bet those people depicted in the video are without jobs now.

A company like PETA who has so much negative, does not get the benefit of the doubt when they are showing something positive. They have proven time and again that they will go to extremes when showing their positions.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[rehmwa 2]

That's a good post. It would be good to hear (from a local at the specific BBall plant) what the reaction was from the company leadership.......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PLFXpert 0]

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There is but one prime reason I would purchase "Certified Humane" meat and dairy - if it tastes better. My assumption is that it does taste better - the more stress-free the animal is, the better the quality of the meat.

Interesting, as many delicacies "taste better" b/c of the horrible things they do to the animals before slaughter (see what makes veal & foie gras "taste good".)

If taste is your #1 priority, would you say that despite knowledge on foie gras that you would purchase it anyways b/c you love the taste?

Though I love great-tasting foods myself; food is for sustenance. Unfortunately many people have forgotten that (or just never attended biology class).

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[DJL 235]

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paté and veal

And Foie Gras! YUM YUM!!!!

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[PLFXpert 0]

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Take out the one person who was talking, and the two people who were using excessive force and you have a company...

It's a nice thought (and well-constructed post, thank you
Unfortunately this isn't an isolated investigation. In fact there have been numerous investigations, by numerous organizations (other than PETA) into numerous industires that raise animals for slaughter or dairy. It is b/c of such investigating that we do have "certified humane" options now.

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They have proven time and again that they will go to extremes when showing their positions.

I 100% agree. And I'm not such a person that needs to witness a horrible act to understand such an act exists, is wrong, and I do not wish to support it. For some people, though, you can tell them "Hey! Don't buy that turkey as they are abused."

"Really? How do you know? It's on sale and I'm buying turkey anyways, so might as well buy this one."

Take that same person and show them a video and suddenly they'd rather pay $5 more for the "certified humane" turkey which might not be on sale, but they feel a little better about themselves at the end of the day.

I've viewed photos and videos of acts that make my stomach churn, make tears roll down my cheek, and it reinforces my actions & purchases; b/c even I am tempted toward some things. But for me it's "Eat some yummy vegetarian lasagna & sleep well tonight or don't sleep but eat this delicious honey-baked ham."

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[micro 0]

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There is but one prime reason I would purchase "Certified Humane" meat and dairy - if it tastes better. My assumption is that it does taste better - the more stress-free the animal is, the better the quality of the meat.

Interesting, as many delicacies "taste better" b/c of the horrible things they do to the animals before slaughter (see what makes veal & fois gras "taste good".)

If taste is your #1 priority, would you say that despite knowledge on fois gras that you would purchase it anyways b/c you love the taste?

Though I love great-tasting foods myself; food is for sustenance. Unfortunately many people have forgotten that (or just never attended biology class).

First of all, PLFXpert, this -for me at least-is turning into an excellent thread. Thanks for starting it and opening your "can of worms" for us to savor.
As to lawrocket's post, while I typically agree w/ most of what he says, in this particular instance we part company to some extent. It would seem here that he suffers from a strictly utilitarian mindset that is all too commen unfortunately in the large agriculture business specifically and in capitalism generally, as if any means justify the ends. If it tastes good, I don't particularly care how it was raised. That misses the boat entirely.

We can't forget that these animals are LIVING things, capable of feeling pain, capable of suffering. Don't misunderstand me, i'm not equating them w/ humans, I'm not putting them on par w/ us in the food chain, but neither am i committing the falacy that just b/c we have "dominion" over them can we do w/ them whatever the hell we feel like doing either, even if that means making them more pleasing to our palates!

For me at least, knowing what suffering the calf went through to become that tasty veal, it then becomes not so tasty any more. My appetite is ruined by the knowledge of what happened to the creature just so I could "enjoy" it for that fleeting moment.

As PLFXpert said, food is PRIMARILY for sustenance and only SECONDARILY for pleasure. That isn't to say that the pleasure of eating isn't important. If eating weren't pleasurable, it would become a drudgery and we wouldn't look forward to it anymore than we would to an enema.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...