School shooting funeral protests!

[AggieDave 6]

This is amazing, absolutely amazing. I'm all about freespeech, but this group continues to be extreme and in bad taste.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200610/NAT20061004a.html

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Bible-Spouting Group Plans to Picket Amish Funerals
By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Senior Editor
October 04, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - A Kansas-based group that says "God hates fags" plans to picket the funerals of the Amish girls killed by a disturbed man in Lancaster County, Pa.

The Westboro Baptist Church -- described as a hate group by the Anti-Defamation League -- has made a name for itself by picketing the funerals of U.S. troops killed in Iraq. The troops are dying as punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuality, the group says.

The Westboro group says the Amish school girls were "killed by a madman in punishment for Gov. Ed Rendell's blasphemous sins against Westboro Baptist Church.

"Gov. Ed Rendell -- speaking and acting in his official capacity to bind the State of Pennsylvania -- slandered and mocked and ridiculed and condemned Westboro Baptist Church on national Fox TV," the group says on its website.

"Rendell also revealed a conspiracy to employ the State's police powers to destroy WBC in order to silence WBC's Gospel message. Co-conspirators identified by Rendell included state officials, citizens, lawyers, legislators and media," the website says.

Westboro Baptist Church said it is "continuing to pray for even worse punishment upon Pennsylvania."

A number of states have passed laws to keep groups like Westboro away from grieving families at funerals, but last month, a federal judge ruled that a Kentucky law barring protests within 300 feet of military funerals and memorial services is too broad and may not be enforced.

In other developments, the man who shot and killed five Amish schoolgirls apparently planned to sexually abuse them first, investigators said. But he apparently didn't get a chance: Charles Carl Roberts IV killed himself when police arrived on the scene.

Suicide notes left by Roberts indicate he was dreaming of molesting girls. He reportedly told his wife he had molested two young relatives 20 years ago - and wanted to do it again.

"It's very possible that he intended to victimize these children in many ways prior to executing them and killing himself," State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller said on Tuesday.

Roberts also indicated he was anguished over the death of a daughter who died shortly after birth nine years ago. In his notes, he said he was "filled with so much hate" and "unimaginable emptiness," but everyone who knew him said they never saw signs of his psychological distress.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Darius11 12]

I love psycho religious extremists. So these ass holes claim to know what god loves and hates.
Do they have Gods phone number? Why don’t we all get the memo?


How does protesting some poor girls funeral do any thing, other then hurt the parents who are obviously going threw a lot right now.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[AggieDave 6]

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How does protesting some poor girls funeral do any thing, other then hurt the parents who are obviously going threw a lot right now.

Like all of those other funeral protests that they have staged. Typically funerals for soldiers that died in Iraq.

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Why don’t we all get the memo?

I got a memo, its called the bible. I never saw the part in there about protesting funerals and hurting other people. I read a lot of stuff about loving your neighbor and being kind, though. I guess the version they have is different then the version I have.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Scoop 0]

Don't you have any powers over there to arrest to prevent a breach of the peace like we do in UK?

[AggieDave 6]

In Pennsylvania I have no clue. Don't know how the law is written up there.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freethefly 6]

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I got a memo, its called the bible. I never saw the part in there about protesting funerals and hurting other people. I read a lot of stuff about loving your neighbor and being kind, though. I guess the version they have is different then the version I have.

I can only believe that they wrote their own bible.
Sadly, this is the downside of free speech.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

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Don't you have any powers over there to arrest to prevent a breach of the peace like we do in UK?

Maybe... *maybe* post the services "No Trespassing - by invitation only"...but I don't even know how well that would hold up.

I truly hope that the motorcycle group that follows Phelps around to keep him away from things like this steps in again...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Richards 0]

Another blatant example of human cruelty that is allowed by the "constitution". It's a shame that everytime someone suggests bringing in a law that allows the police to enforce a bubble zone around funerals, someone accuses that person of being a Nazi. Despite the fact that the constitution technically allows these people to torment people who are trying to mourn a loved one, can someone please explain to me (without silly flames or personal attacks) why passing such a buble zone law would put us on a slippery slope to totalitarianism? Please use simple language for a non-lawyer type like me rather than complex legalisms.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[billvon 3,009]

>. . . powers over there to arrest to prevent a breach of the peace . . .

"Prior restraint," or the censorship of certain documents/groups/viewpoints before they are heard, is considered one of the most odious violations of the First Amendment. Thus any law that prohibits them from even showing up at all is going to be tough to pass.

It's also hard to imagine how to pass a law that would not have some very nasty consequences. Imagine, for example, a new law that said that religious demonstrations should not be permitted at funerals - then having a group like the Westboro Baptists objecting to a catholic priest saying prayers over the coffin. (And they'd have the law on their side in that case.)

The Westboro Baptists are pretty slimy, and are abusing the first amendment to accomplish their goals (primarily publicity.) That's why they're hard to stop - because they are using a right that americans are not going to give up just because some idiots want publicity. I thought the 300 foot distance thing was a good compromise, myself.

[yjumpinoz 0]

I am from Kansas and a Christian and I cannot stand what the Phelps clan does. The Patriot guard is doing a great service by shielding families from these nutcases. I hope they make it for this tragic funeral. Most of the Phelps' are lawyers, so they welcome someone trying to restrict them so they can play ACLU on them.

[Gawain 0]

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Don't you have any powers over there to arrest to prevent a breach of the peace like we do in UK?

"Disturbance of the Peace" as it's widely known here is more oriented towards the literal volume of an event or protest.

Protests that are properly organized cannot be broken (our Constitution guarantees the right to assemble), regardless of taste or tact.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Scoop 0]

We have many offences that would fit perfect for this situation and have them arrested and rightly so.

Section 5 of the Public Order ACt is a good 'un:

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5 Harassment, alarm or distress

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

(2) An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that or another dwelling.

(3) It is a defence for the accused to prove—

(a) that he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or

(b) that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation displayed, would be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling, or

(c) that his conduct was reasonable.

(4) A constable may arrest a person without warrant if—

(a) he engages in offensive conduct which [a] constable warns him to stop, and

(b) he engages in further offensive conduct immediately or shortly after the warning.

(5) In subsection (4) “offensive conduct” means conduct the constable reasonably suspects to constitute an offence under this section, and the conduct mentioned in paragraph (a) and the further conduct need not be of the same nature.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

[Gawain 0]

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This is amazing, absolutely amazing. I'm all about freespeech, but this group continues to be extreme and in bad taste.

I agree wholeheartedly. As much as I'd like to see their effort stopped, the first amendment must prevail. It's a total lack of compassion.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Andy9o8 2]

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Don't you have any powers over there to arrest to prevent a breach of the peace like we do in UK?

The bottom line is this, Scoop - the caselaw based on the US Constitution arising out of "breach of the peace" and "public nuisance" cases, especially in the past 100 years, defines unlawful public conduct much more narrowly (and defines constitutionally-protected public speech or publication much more broadly) in the US than is the case in the UK (with the exception of our Puritan obscenity laws), or for that matter, just about anywhere else in the world.

[BillyVance 34]

Those idiots from WBC are the stupidest people I've ever seen...

If there was a hunting season for them, I bet a bunch of us would sign up for permits in a pinch!

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[TrophyHusband 0]

what would be the downside of drafting a law guaranteeing the right to bury your loved-ones in a protest-free environment?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Shawndiver 0]

Wonder what it would take to designate a "demstration area" like they do for presidential appearances or the WTO meetings. Perhaps set one up in an appropriate area for the Phelps as not to restrict their free speech, but allow the families to grieve in peace. Perhaps over a bubbling tar pit?

_________________

[Scoop 0]

Seems you guys shot yourself in the foot. So scared about excessive use of police powers and protecting your own interests that the legislation available to officers is severely limited letting tossers like this do as they please. Sad I hope those bikers catch up with them and sort them out

[kallend 2,034]

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Don't you have any powers over there to arrest to prevent a breach of the peace like we do in UK?

"Disturbance of the Peace" as it's widely known here is more oriented towards the literal volume of an event or protest.

Protests that are properly organized cannot be broken (our Constitution guarantees the right to assemble), regardless of taste or tact.

Groups protesting against Bush are routinely limited to areas away from his presence. Surely similar restrictions could be applied in other situations (like this).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Scoop 0]

I think that sounds like a good idea, its something that your authorities need to look in. You should write off to your local councillor or whatever the equivalent is of what we call our local MP (member of parliament)

[billvon 3,009]

>what would be the downside of drafting a law guaranteeing the right
>to bury your loved-ones in a protest-free environment?

Because every law gets used by people in ways other than the way intended.

Prohibit religious demonstrations at funerals? You can bet the Westboro Baptists are going to show up at the funeral with a cop and demand the catholic priest saying prayers gets removed. And they will win - it's a law.

Prohibit signs at funerals? They'll be there with the cops demanding pictures of the deceased be removed.

Prohibit non-relatives at funerals? How about people the family disapproves of? Could get interesting when a child dies and has their divorced parents go after each other at the funeral (and now there's a law that can get one of them thrown in jail for just showing up.)

The problem with such laws is that they're not used by just grieving families. They can be (and have been) used by scumbags to get the effect they want. You can't go to the judge and say "but Your Honor, we meant this law to keep those scumbags away from our funerals; we certainy didn't mean for it to be used against US!" A law is a law - which is why relying on common sense is often a better solution than passing a law.

[lawrocket 3]

Bill has hit the nail on the head. As much as I despise what they are doing, I absolutely loathe prior restraints on speech.

The Phelps clan is an example of why we have the 1st Amendment apply to everyone. (Well, why we SHOULD - it turns out that it doesn't always happen that way, since it seems acceptable to exercise a prior restraint on racist, sexist, or homophobic speech - look here for my explanation and support of my assertion about acceptable censorship).

My solution? Get some of these families to sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress. Get a funeral parlor or two to sue for trespass. How is it that the racists like Tom Metzger were silenced? By a civil lawsuit that made them pay for the damage they caused.

It turns out, people usually aren't to keen on wagging their tongues when they have to pay for the damage they caused. IN other words, "Say what you want, but if it results in harm to people, your ass will be screwed."

---

My second issue with them is substantive. According to the Bible, the Phelps Clan is continually committing affronts to God by claiming to know his motives. They obviously have not read the Bible. Do they not recall the sins of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar in the Book of Job? For they were the ones who insisted to Job that he was being punished for disobeying God's law, and that he deserved what he got (although, unlike Phelps, they stopped there - Phelps claims to know not only that God is punishing them, but also claims to be in on God's MOTIVES for doign so).

Now, God was mighty upset at mere people saying what was happening to Job was punishment for something - especially since they were wrong.

Perhaps the Phelps Clan missed this chapter. I don't think that any of them created a universe. I dont' think that any of them have ever had any experience managing a universe for even a second. Therefore, who the heck are they claiming to know God's motives? Do they claim that they are prophets? Oh, yeah, God said to beware of false prophets, too.

I don't know why God is allowing them to do this stuff. See, I read Job, and I know that it is folly to attempt to explain why things happen. God may have his reasons, he may not. It is not for us people speak for him.

Assuming the Bible teachings to be correct, they are destined to burn in hell. As mere mortals, who are we to stand in their way? Let them.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[BillyVance 34]

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what would be the downside of drafting a law guaranteeing the right to bury your loved-ones in a protest-free environment?

There should be NO downside to that. It's common sense and everyone should have that right guaranteed. Arrest those WBC fuckers...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Scoop 0]

It's quite simple, much like UK law if someones actions cause another harrasment, alarm or distress thats an offence. This includes signs or banners.

For example 'support your troops', 'RIP' etc would all be fine but this 'God hates gays' etc would be illegal and I'm amazed its not over your neck of the woods. It is a hate crime whether they believe in it as its their religion or not.

[lawrocket 3]

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what would be the downside of drafting a law guaranteeing the right to bury your loved-ones in a protest-free environment?

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There should be NO downside to that. It's common sense and everyone should have that right guaranteed. Arrest those WBC fuckers...

Sure there is a downside. Bill explained the actual problems (he used reason and logic again). But what about the dignitary problems with it?

Saying this is liek saying there should be no downside to routine searches of everyone's home for illegal drugs. What's the harm? People who are not keeping illegal drugs are not in trouble - only those with illegal drugs are.

Many of us see a HUGE problem with such a system. It has to do with the indignity of going through such searches and the almost certain probability of abuse that comes with it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.