sweep 0 #26 May 9, 2005 One fatality in the UK last year : jumping through cloud was felt to be a contributing factor, although the fatality was primarily a result of poor canopy selection and skills. A lift exited a long way from the DZ and landed not far from a wind-farm and numerous other hazards. One jumper on a small canopy is believed to have made a panic turn to avoid a fence identified at the last minute. While there is a possibilty this same fatality may have happened on a perfectly spotted load at the DZ the panel felt it was fair to suggest that the number of hazards in the out-landing area cannot have helped. ISTR hearing that cloud was a factor in one of the early mid-airs in the UK some time ago. Sweep---- Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #27 May 10, 2005 >i'd be interested to know WHY the GPS was so far off.. > i'll bet it was operator error of some sort . . . Of course. The original coordinates were gotten off a handheld GPS that did not update its position very quickly, and the previous location (which was San Diego) was still displayed. Properly functioning eyes and a properly functioning GPS are both pretty accurate. In both cases it is the skill of the operator that makes the difference. In addition, GPS cannot note traffic, clouds, or (in most cases) upper and lower winds. Thus, a human spotter will often be better at putting people on the DZ than a pilot with a GPS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeepDiver 0 #28 May 10, 2005 On my fifth jump upon throwing my PC I had poor body position. This was my first jump in which I had to deal with line twists. I deployed my pilot chute at 5500 and after resolving that condition and doing my control checks. I found myself sinking into a massive cloud. I wasn't worried and thought to myself that that was pretty interesting. As I'm looking around and below me I see what looks like a canyon in the clouds made up of clouds. I could see the ground off in the distance and I start flying the "canyon" It really turned out to be a memorable experience. The sensation of speed really started to come to me as I was flying down and to my left and right just wanting to get into clean clear air and out of the "canyon". I end up coming out of them flying to the northeast and needing to go to the southwest where the DZ was. Mabye I don't know any better but I thought it was great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skip 0 #29 May 10, 2005 Quote Isn't that more of a (horizontal) separation issue rather than a pull altitude issue? If the last out was on their belly and those previous to him/her were not wouldn’t the exit separation close as the belly flyer drifted? Hence the only reason the belly flyer is getting out after is because of the high opening. If the higher opening is ignored couldn’t such a situation arise? But I guess that’s a different thread. neilp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #30 May 10, 2005 Quote You're so modest. I was worried that it was just me. I am so glad that someone else noticed his wonderfulness. It's only his second insightful thread and already I am astounded at his ability to educate the masses. What is the Finnish word for troll anyway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #31 May 10, 2005 Quote If the last out was on their belly and those previous to him/her were not wouldn’t the exit separation close as the belly flyer drifted? Hence the only reason the belly flyer is getting out after is because of the high opening. If the higher opening is ignored couldn’t such a situation arise? It is still a horizontal separation issue. The belly flyer should leave more separation. What if he does pull at the right altitude, but has to cutaway, hence being in the kill zone? IMO. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skip 0 #32 May 10, 2005 Quote IMO. Good point.. neilp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #33 May 10, 2005 Quote Quote If the last out was on their belly and those previous to him/her were not wouldn’t the exit separation close as the belly flyer drifted? Hence the only reason the belly flyer is getting out after is because of the high opening. If the higher opening is ignored couldn’t such a situation arise? It is still a horizontal separation issue. The belly flyer should leave more separation. What if he does pull at the right altitude, but has to cutaway, hence being in the kill zone? IMO. Lots of reasons why you cannot rely on vertical separation: premature deployments, cutaways, total mals, loss of altitude awareness...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #34 May 10, 2005 Quote ??? Have I told anything that it could be 8/8 of clouds? No. It was 2-4/8 and good ground vision. That cloud has stared about 1650m and the base of it was about 1350m. Why to jump out? Because 14 others have done that before me on that load. Why to pull high? Because I was the high-puller of that load and landing out has a certain risk. I am not nearly experienced enough to comment on your question, however, this is the second thread i've seen where you have posted something and then got all irritated with the responses. This forum is about safety, remember. I don't understand why you get upset with people who are just trying to improve your chances of survival. And remember that there are a lot of newbies out here who read these things for info (yes, yes, we ask our instructors too), but I'm somehow glad that thre haven't been a load of responses saying things like "sure, jump a high wingloading" or "sure, open in a cloud" (without qualification) ---end of my contribution to this thread--- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #35 May 10, 2005 Quote ??? Have I told anything that it could be 8/8 of clouds? No. It was 2-4/8 and good ground vision. That cloud has stared about 1650m and the base of it was about 1350m. Why to jump out? Because 14 others have done that before me on that load. Why to pull high? Because I was the high-puller of that load and landing out has a certain risk. i dont want to nitpick, but your answer startles me a bit. so the clouds started at 1350 meters and the top was at 1650 in this scenario there are two alternatives first one: when you know you are the last to leave the plane and you know you want to open high (for whatever reason) - why didn't you open above the cloud? gives you more time to fly your canopy and enjoy the scenery second one: you also could have opened after clearing the cloud in 1300 meters. hence making shure nobody had drifted into your airspace or you had done the same. thus adding a bit of safety to the situation and to state " Why to jump out? Because 14 others have done that before me on that load." shows some severe lack of judgement. maybe one day you will be in a situation when you are the guy stating he will ride the plane down. no matter what all the others are doing. an maybe, just maybe, the others on the load will be glad that somebody had the guts to break the peerpressure The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #36 May 10, 2005 Quote first one: when you know you are the last to leave the plane and you know you want to open high (for whatever reason) - why didn't you open above the cloud? gives you more time to fly your canopy and enjoy the scenery Because it was not my plan. Quote second one: you also could have opened after clearing the cloud in 1300 meters. hence making shure nobody had drifted into your airspace or you had done the same. thus adding a bit of safety to the situation A 2 or 3 way FF team was before me. I`ve given them 8-10second delay. It should be good. I`ve know the base of the certain cloud after I`ve got through. It could`ve been lower too. We agreed that I open high. Quote and to state " Why to jump out? Because 14 others have done that before me on that load." shows some severe lack of judgement. maybe one day you will be in a situation when you are the guy stating he will ride the plane down. no matter what all the others are doing. an maybe, just maybe, the others on the load will be glad that somebody had the guts to break the peerpressure ??? Imagine you are the last, you can see the ground and you can see some clouds too. You are not out of spot and the airspace is clear. Why to ride the plane down? This is absurd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #37 May 10, 2005 Quote and to state " Why to jump out? Because 14 others have done that before me on that load." shows some severe lack of judgement. maybe one day you will be in a situation when you are the guy stating he will ride the plane down. no matter what all the others are doing. an maybe, just maybe, the others on the load will be glad that somebody had the guts to break the peerpressure ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ??? Imagine you are the last, you can see the ground and you can see some clouds too. You are not out of spot and the airspace is clear. Why to ride the plane down? This is absurd. i thought this to be your general viewpoint not entirely connected with your first post - and as such your statement "Because 14 others have done that before me on that load" is still ridiculousThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #38 May 10, 2005 Quote i thought this to be your general viewpoint not entirely connected with your first post - and as such your statement "Because 14 others have done that before me on that load" is still ridiculous If I don`t have any good reason to stay and ride down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #39 May 10, 2005 Quote If I don`t have any good reason to stay and ride down? If you went through a cloud, you either exited directly over it or drifted into it. Either way, it could have been avoided - don't exit over a cloud even if you can see the ground on all sides of it. As for drift, know what the uppers are doing before you get in the plane so you can anticipate drift caused by them, or get some coaching so you can fall straight down. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #40 May 10, 2005 ??? Imagine you are the last, you can see the ground and you can see some clouds too. You are not out of spot and the airspace is clear. Why to ride the plane down? This is absurd. *** I bet I would have asked myself the same question, and jumped just like you did. And I bet most people giving you shit about it also would have when they had 200 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #41 May 10, 2005 Well. I was told that I should not track into clouds, but none has told that I should even fall through any. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #42 May 10, 2005 Ok. Open my eyes! What have I missed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #43 May 10, 2005 Quote And I bet most people giving you shit about it also would have when they had 200 jumps. Not me. At about 200 jumps I was on jump run in the bottom of a cloud; I chose to ride the plane down even though the other jumpers went. I guess it's all in where you jump. The dz I learned at had "country club" pilots on the ground with binoculars and video cameras every cloudy day, just waiting for us to bust the FAR so they could get us kicked off the airport. Therefore I didn't go through a cloud until I had over 600 jumps and was jumping at a different dz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #44 May 10, 2005 I don`t know. A JM has done the spotting. I can not do anything just trusting them. They should know what they are doing. Everything looked fine and I followed them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #45 May 10, 2005 Quote I can not do anything just trusting them. They should know what they are doing. Baaaaaahh.... says the sheep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #46 May 10, 2005 Ok. Open my eyes! What have I missed? *** Well, I don't know how it is in Finland. Maybe nobody cares if you jump through clouds, so have fun. In the U.S. you're allowed to jump around clouds, but not through them. To stay legal, you need to open at least 1000 ft (300m+) above them and fly around. The thing is, you're expected to be 2000 ft. away horizontally as you descend past them, which means you need to be open higher still. This is the law and it's a good idea. The clouds are for people flying with instruments and a working transponder, so they're visible to Air Traffic Control. Even more than other VFR traffic, skydivers shouldn't be in clouds, because they have no transponder, and no radio. They are invisible to ATC radar, and can take down large aircraft. Any pilot of an aircraft legally flying with IFR clearance through clouds, whether over a dropzone or not, has every right to expect that skydivers won't be there. Now, I've met a pretentious skydiver or two over the years who selfishly felt otherwise. I may have even been one of them, but here in the U.S. we also admit to nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #47 May 10, 2005 Quote Baaaaaahh.... says the sheep. What do you expect from someone having 200+ jumps? If I want to jump and to be a 300+ jumps wonder I have to do what they say and jump... If it wouldn`t be a solo I hadn`t opened in a a cloud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #48 May 10, 2005 I don`t the exact regulation but if its too cloudy and there aren`t enough holes we are not going above the cloud base. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #49 May 10, 2005 Quote What do you expect from someone having 200+ jumps? The ability to think for yourself. To be fair, I've been a sheep in the past and I'll likely be a sheep again in the future. I've found myself in a cloud at least once; so far I've gotten lucky, nothing bad has happened. The difference here is attitude. I blame no one but myself for not checking before exit, for not riding the plane down, for being a sheep. Not the pilot, not whoever checked the spot, not the people I'm jumping with. Me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #50 May 10, 2005 I might have not been absolutely clear. I was a nice spring day. There were plenty of small white clouds around 1500m. Its quite hard to see from the plane at 4000m when to jump out to get one of the dozen holes between the small clouds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
