Jack Straw's Comments

[Skyrad 0]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/06102006/325/straw-s-veil-comments-stoke-muslim-ire.html

I have to say I agree with Jack Straw. Most British Muslim men I know agree with him as well. Mainly women in the UK who wear the full veil are either Arab women or converts (who all go over the top in every religion)
Its irritating talking to a woman whos dressed like a bloody Ninja.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Gawain 0]

Well, I hope he gets the "intelligent" debate he's seeking. Unfortunately, it seems like so many people get overly sensitive (or "butt-hurt" as we say in the Army) at the onset of any kind of observation about Islamic practices.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Skyrad 0]

So far no problem. Journo's were trying to stir the brown and smelly stuff on the streets on his constituency today but didn't seem to get much of a response. Tonight another TV 'news' man went into a Muslim restaurant in London and started asking the dinners, none of them seemed at all interested and were more concerned about their dinners getting cold Like I said most Muslims in the UK proberbly agree with him.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 3,009]

>Its irritating talking to a woman whos dressed like a bloody Ninja.

I find it irritating to talk to people with six inch holes in their ears or dots on their heads, too. But that's up to them.

Take the opposite approach. If your wife went to see a local official, and he asked her to pull her skirt hem up a bit, would you be OK with that? (Personally I would be, as long as he took "no" for an answer - but I can see how some might be bothered by it.)

This is really not much of an issue overall. He asked them to do it, which is his right. They could have refused, which is their right. As long as no one is ordering people to take off their veilss/dots/long dresses/burkas/turbans then it's not much of an issue.

[Skyrad 0]

Like you said in the bottom of your last post, he's not ordering anyone to remove them, he's not saying he wants to remove their right to wear the veil which he respects, he asks them if they would mind and he always has a female present when he does. To date everyone he has asked has removed the veil. Thats why I don't think its an issue.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[StreetScooby 5]

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While newspapers and commentators applauded Straw's stance, which he said was designed to provoke a "mature debate", many Muslims reacted with anger.

Local group the Lancashire Council of Mosques described his comments as "ill-judged and misconceived" and said many women found them "offensive and disturbing".

Thus, we can only conclude that many Muslims are not capable of mature debate, QED. Note that I did NOT say all Muslims.

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The question of how the Muslim community could be better integrated into mainstream British society has been a major political issue since last year's suicide bomb attacks on London's transport network by four British Islamists.

DIVIDED COMMUNITIES

In many towns, communities are divided with little or no contact between ethnic groups. Commentators fear this is fuelling tension and extremism.

It is a culture clash. Western societies must accept this for what it is, otherwise we'll never be able to deal with it effectively.

We are all engines of karma

[Andy9o8 2]

I'm going to take the side that says he's being insensitive. Muslim women wearing veils are simply dressing in the orthodox style that they believe their religion requires them to do. Why should they be pressured to compromise that in countries in which they are a minority? Islam is hardly the only religion whose most orthodox adherents, and/or whose clergy, adopt ethnically-distinct attire or grooming.

It's a matter of acculturization – I think Mr. Straw is uncomfortable with it mainly because it's so foreign to him that he's never grown fully accustomed to it, as opposed to people for whom veils have been part of their culture their whole lives.

"Your veil makes me uncomfortable." So what Mr. Straw? You're an MP. You're in the business of constituent service. Your constituents shouldn't have to adapt to you; you should learn to adapt to them.

[Skyrad 0]

I haven't seen 'many Muslim' reacting at all. I think the media is currently trying everything they can to provoke reaction amoungst the millitant extreamists. So far they haven't done this on this occasion but I think it highlights the medias move from reporting the news to attempting to create it.
Also Mr Straw correctly points out that nowhere in the Koran does it say women should cover their faces.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[StreetScooby 5]

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Why should they be pressured to compromise that in countries in which they are a minority?

Should they be required to be functional in the language of their chosen country?

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Also Mr Straw correctly points out that nowhere in the Koran does it say women should cover their faces.

For God's sake, don't try and educate people who don't want to be educated. Ignorance is bliss for many people on this planet.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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I think the media is currently trying everything they can to provoke reaction amoungst the millitant extreamists.

Agreed. Free speech has its drawbacks, especially when someone chooses to be irresponsible with that freedom.

We are all engines of karma

[Andy9o8 2]

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Why should they be pressured to compromise that in countries in which they are a minority?

Should they be required to be functional in the language of their chosen country?

Poor analogy; beneath your capability. You owe me 1 for that.

[StreetScooby 5]

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You owe me 1 Beer! for that.

Happy to buy you a beer.

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Poor analogy;

What, it's not a fair question?

We are all engines of karma

[jakee 1,501]

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Why should they be pressured to compromise that in countries in which they are a minority?

According to Mr Straw most of the muslim women he has seen in his surgery have been 'relieved' when he asked them to remove their veils. From what direction does that imply is the pressure coming?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 2]

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You owe me 1 Beer! for that.

Happy to buy you a beer.

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Poor analogy;

What, it's not a fair question?

That'll be 2 . Keep it up. Unlike greenies, I give more than one warning.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Why should they be pressured to compromise that in countries in which they are a minority?

According to Mr Straw most of the muslim women he has seen in his surgery have been 'relieved' when he asked them to remove their veils. From what direction does that imply is the pressure coming?

Emphasis added for clarity. Hardly a disinterested source.

[Skyrad 0]

If you take the time to talk to these woman you'll find that the vast majority of them (in the UK) wear the veil because THEY want to, not because a man makes them.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Darius11 12]

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I'm going to take the side that says he's being insensitive. Muslim women wearing veils are simply dressing in the orthodox style that they believe their religion requires them to do. Why should they be pressured to compromise that in countries in which they are a minority? Islam is hardly the only religion whose most orthodox adherents, and/or whose clergy, adopt ethnically-distinct attire or grooming.

It's a matter of acculturization – I think Mr. Straw is uncomfortable with it mainly because it's so foreign to him that he's never grown fully accustomed to it, as opposed to people for whom veils have been part of their culture their whole lives.

"Your veil makes me uncomfortable." So what Mr. Straw? You're an MP. You're in the business of constituent service. Your constituents shouldn't have to adapt to you; you should learn to adapt to them.

I agree with you 100%.

It’s crazy how more people don’t agree with us. Especially when we live in a country where people fight for the right to wear a T-shirt they want in a public school.

We are talking about people’s belief and freedom of religion. It doesn’t matter what we think or how we feel about it. It is simply there right to practice their faith.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[StreetScooby 5]

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It is simply there right to practice their faith.

As long as their faith doesn't include forcibly converting everyone around them, or killing them when disagreement occurs.

We are all engines of karma

[SkyDekker 1,465]

you mean like the Roman Catholics?

[Skyrad 0]

He's not saying they shouldn't, he's not ordering that they shouldn't be allowed. He's saying that he feels uncomfortable talking to a person whne he can only see their eyes, further hes saying that while he respects their right to wear a veil he asks them if they would mind removing it when they are speaking. (always with another woman present) Wheres the problem with that?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,501]

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Emphasis added for clarity. Hardly a disinterested source.

No shit Still, I haven't yet seen any of the women involved come forward to say either "Yeah, it's cool" or "Fuck that racist bastard" so as it stands he is the only source we have for what goes on in that office.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 2]

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He's not saying they shouldn't, he's not ordering that they shouldn't be allowed. He's saying that he feels uncomfortable talking to a person whne he can only see their eyes, further hes saying that while he respects their right to wear a veil he asks them if they would mind removing it when they are speaking. (always with another woman present) Wheres the problem with that?

My problem with that is that the context, while not necessarily coercive in so many words, is at least subtly intimidating. These women are approaching their MP (Straw) seeking his (hopefully sympathetic) ear, endorsement and/or action on issues of importance to them. Clearly they have a motivation to be deferential. So, if he asks them to remove their veil, they might very feel that either practical necessity or respect for authority leaves them little choice but to play the good toadie and politely acquiesce.

[Darius11 12]

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It is simply there right to practice their faith.

As long as their faith doesn't include forcibly converting everyone around them, or killing them when disagreement occurs.

Agreed.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[StreetScooby 5]

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Agreed.

We are all engines of karma

[amibovered 0]

It's difficult to connect to a pair of eye-balls,personal confersations are reliant on speech, and facial expressions.Jack Straw is a tit, but I'm with him on this one.

If theirs a hell bellow,
We're all gonna go.