WTF Awfull

[Richards 0]

Am I being a big fucking wimp or is this make you cringe also?


http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/27/female.circumcision.ap/index.html

Quote

Female circumcision trial may be first in U.S.
POSTED: 3:44 p.m. EDT, October 27, 2006
Adjust font size:
LAWRENCEVILLE, Georgia (AP) -- The trial of an Atlanta-area father accused of circumcising his 2-year-old daughter with scissors is focusing attention on an ancient African practice that experts say is slowly becoming more common in the U.S. as immigrant communities grow.

Khalid Adem, a 30-year-old immigrant from Ethiopia, is charged with aggravated battery and cruelty to children.

Human rights observers said they believe this is the first criminal case in the U.S. involving the 5,000-year-old practice.

Prosecutors say Adem used scissors to remove his daughter's clitoris in their apartment in 2001. The child's mother said she did not discover it until more than a year later.

"He said he wanted to preserve her virginity," Fortunate Adem, the girl's mother, testified this week. "He said it was the will of God. I became angry in my mind. I thought he was crazy."

The girl, now 7, also testified, clutching a teddy bear and saying that her father "cut me on my private part." Adem cried loudly as his daughter left the courtroom.

Testifying on his own behalf Friday, Adem said he never circumcised his daughter or asked anyone else to do so. He said he grew up in Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia, and considers the practice more prevalent in rural areas.

Adem, who removed a handkerchief from his pocket and cried at one point during his testimony, was asked what he thought of someone who believes in the practice. He replied: "The word I can say is `mind in the gutter.' He is a moron."

His lawyer, Mark Hill, acknowledged that Adem's daughter had been cut. But he implied that the family of Fortunate Adem, who immigrated from South Africa when she was 6, may have had the procedure done.

The Adems divorced in 2003, and Hill suggested that the couple's daughter was encouraged to testify against her father by her mother, who has full custody.

If convicted, Adem, a clerk at a suburban Atlanta gas station, could get up to 40 years in prison.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, using figures from the 1990 Census, estimated that 168,000 girls and women in the U.S. had undergone the procedure or were at risk of being subjected to it.

The State Department estimates that up to 130 million women worldwide had undergone circumcision as of 2001. Knives, razors or even sharp stones are usually used, according to a 2001 department report. The tools often are not sterilized, and often, many girls are circumcised at the same ceremony, leading to infection.

It is unknown how many girls have died from the procedure, either during the cutting or from infections, or years later in childbirth.

Nightmares, depression, shock and feelings of betrayal are common psychological side effects, according to the federal report.

The report estimated that 73 percent of women in Ethiopia had undergone the procedure, based on a 1997 survey.

Taina Bien-Aime, executive director of Equality Now, an international human rights group, said female circumcision is most widely practiced in a 28-country swath of Africa. She said more than 90 percent of women in Ethiopia are believed to have been subjected to the practice, and more in places like Egypt and Somalia.

"It is a preparation for marriage," Bien-Aime said. "If the girl is not circumcised, her chances of being married are very slim."

The practice crosses ethnic and cultural lines and is not tied to a particular religion. Activists say the practice is intended to deny women sexual pleasure. In its most extreme form, the clitoris and parts of the labia are removed and the labia that remain are stitched together.

"I had maybe read about it in Reader's Digest or some other journal, but not really considered it a possibility here," said Dr. Rose Badaruddin, the pediatrician for the Adems' daughter.

Many refugees from Ethiopia and Somalia come to Georgia through a federal refugee resettlement program.

"With immigration, the immigrants travel with their traditions," Bien-Aime said. "Female genital mutilation is not an exception."

Federal law specifically bans the practice, but many states do not have a law addressing it. Georgia lawmakers, with the support of Fortunate Adem, passed an anti-mutilation law last year. Khalid Adem is not being tried under that law, since it did not exist when his daughter's cutting allegedly happened.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

(sorry the URL/Clicky thing isn't cooperating)

This is being done on our side of the puddle now? The courts should make a very clear example of this guy. Keep certain practices in your own country.



Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Am I being a big fucking wimp or is this make you cringe also?


http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/27/female.circumcision.ap/index.html

Quote

Female circumcision trial may be first in U.S.
POSTED: 3:44 p.m. EDT, October 27, 2006
Adjust font size:
LAWRENCEVILLE, Georgia (AP) -- The trial of an Atlanta-area father accused of circumcising his 2-year-old daughter with scissors is focusing attention on an ancient African practice that experts say is slowly becoming more common in the U.S. as immigrant communities grow.

Khalid Adem, a 30-year-old immigrant from Ethiopia, is charged with aggravated battery and cruelty to children.

Human rights observers said they believe this is the first criminal case in the U.S. involving the 5,000-year-old practice.

Prosecutors say Adem used scissors to remove his daughter's clitoris in their apartment in 2001. The child's mother said she did not discover it until more than a year later.

"He said he wanted to preserve her virginity," Fortunate Adem, the girl's mother, testified this week. "He said it was the will of God. I became angry in my mind. I thought he was crazy."

The girl, now 7, also testified, clutching a teddy bear and saying that her father "cut me on my private part." Adem cried loudly as his daughter left the courtroom.

Testifying on his own behalf Friday, Adem said he never circumcised his daughter or asked anyone else to do so. He said he grew up in Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia, and considers the practice more prevalent in rural areas.

Adem, who removed a handkerchief from his pocket and cried at one point during his testimony, was asked what he thought of someone who believes in the practice. He replied: "The word I can say is `mind in the gutter.' He is a moron."

His lawyer, Mark Hill, acknowledged that Adem's daughter had been cut. But he implied that the family of Fortunate Adem, who immigrated from South Africa when she was 6, may have had the procedure done.

The Adems divorced in 2003, and Hill suggested that the couple's daughter was encouraged to testify against her father by her mother, who has full custody.

If convicted, Adem, a clerk at a suburban Atlanta gas station, could get up to 40 years in prison.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, using figures from the 1990 Census, estimated that 168,000 girls and women in the U.S. had undergone the procedure or were at risk of being subjected to it.

The State Department estimates that up to 130 million women worldwide had undergone circumcision as of 2001. Knives, razors or even sharp stones are usually used, according to a 2001 department report. The tools often are not sterilized, and often, many girls are circumcised at the same ceremony, leading to infection.

It is unknown how many girls have died from the procedure, either during the cutting or from infections, or years later in childbirth.

Nightmares, depression, shock and feelings of betrayal are common psychological side effects, according to the federal report.

The report estimated that 73 percent of women in Ethiopia had undergone the procedure, based on a 1997 survey.

Taina Bien-Aime, executive director of Equality Now, an international human rights group, said female circumcision is most widely practiced in a 28-country swath of Africa. She said more than 90 percent of women in Ethiopia are believed to have been subjected to the practice, and more in places like Egypt and Somalia.

"It is a preparation for marriage," Bien-Aime said. "If the girl is not circumcised, her chances of being married are very slim."

The practice crosses ethnic and cultural lines and is not tied to a particular religion. Activists say the practice is intended to deny women sexual pleasure. In its most extreme form, the clitoris and parts of the labia are removed and the labia that remain are stitched together.

"I had maybe read about it in Reader's Digest or some other journal, but not really considered it a possibility here," said Dr. Rose Badaruddin, the pediatrician for the Adems' daughter.

Many refugees from Ethiopia and Somalia come to Georgia through a federal refugee resettlement program.

"With immigration, the immigrants travel with their traditions," Bien-Aime said. "Female genital mutilation is not an exception."

Federal law specifically bans the practice, but many states do not have a law addressing it. Georgia lawmakers, with the support of Fortunate Adem, passed an anti-mutilation law last year. Khalid Adem is not being tried under that law, since it did not exist when his daughter's cutting allegedly happened.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

(sorry the URL/Clicky thing isn't cooperating)

This is being done on our side of the puddle now? The courts should make a very clear example of this guy. Keep certain practices in your own country.



Richards

Good. We need less children. Just kidding.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Richards 0]

[freeflybella 0]

Quote

I cannot see how we can allow a man to pin down a screaming infant and mutilate her without anasthetic, damaging her for life

Uh...it's called circumcision and we do it to boys every single day.

It's the exact same thing we do to boys.


ETA: As a matter of fact, there's a likely chance it happened to you.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[swedishcelt 0]

Very few men are circumsized without anesthesia, with sharp dirty rocks or scissors, no sanitation efforts and because it will get rid of any chance they will ever enjoy sex again.

Both are unnecessary in this day and age but I would still argue they aren't the same thing.
I realize there are an untold number of unreported deaths by male circumcision and even statistically the number of botched cases is terrifying. It just seems that the reason behind male circumcision was never based in intentional abuse and repression. People are cutting these women to keep them from cheating and to intentionally make sex and childbirth horribly painful so they won't want to have sex. At least men in this day and age have it done as babies with anesthesia. They don't often remember the trauma. These girls are often ritually attacked for this around the age of 4 and up and the scarring leaves their bodies so scarred that their vaginas and uretha are left the size of pins. They have to be cut open and sewn back together many times if they are lucky. If they aren't lucky and from a poor backwards area, they are simply torn open on their wedding night and any other time they are forced to have sex after that. I just don't think they can as of yet be compared.


female circumcision facts

[skyflygirl1 0]

quote from Freeflybella

Uh...it's called circumcision and we do it to boys every single day.

It's the exact same thing we do to boys.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I'd just like to say that it is not the same thing!

Boys are circumsized in a clinical setting, or should be, with anasthetic and sometimes it's done voluntarily. Personally I don't agree with it unless it's a choice made my the man himself when he's old enough to decide.

The female version is actually known here in England as 'Female Genital Mutilation', which is what it is.

I trained as a midwife at University for a year and during that time had many run ins with women from different Ethnic backgrounds who had been 'mutilated'.

They didn't know which part of themselves were which and to be honest none of the qualified midwives could tell either. It was like looking at the end result of a horror movie bloodbath.

This is done all over the world by unqualified people in sometimes squalid conditions and often with no pain relief whatsoever.

It is inhumane and to be frank, one of the most grusome, discusting practices carried out in certain cultures today.

In no way is it the equivalent to male circumcision. If we cut up a mans penis and left it resembling a smashed up sausage with no real shape or function then you could compare it.


Would also just like to say that what I type is my opinion and take on things and I don't want to offend anyone, we all have rights to our own views.

Fear is Temporary, Regret is Forever!

www.myspace.com/byasa

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Uh...it's called circumcision and we do it to boys every single day.

It's the exact same thing we do to boys.

WRONG...

ITs done for far different reasons.... its a hiddeous attempt at patriarchal control of women.

IF it WAS circumcision... it would be to remove the clitoral hood.... IN FACT its done to remove their clitoris as well.. so that the woman will not strayand be BAD girls.. and find sex not as pleasureable.. thereby not straying from the marital bed.....

To use the same little head thinking.. perhaps all the MEN in those countires.. should have their penis removed so THEY will not stray from the marital bed...since in Africa.. one of the reasons the aids epedemic is so high is the male promiscuity OUTSIDE of their marriages.

[shropshire 0]

It's usually done by men who aren't circumcised ... because you'd have to be a complete prick to do that to any woman

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

Quote

I cannot see how we can allow a man to pin down a screaming infant and mutilate her without anasthetic, damaging her for life

Uh...it's called circumcision and we do it to boys every single day.

It's the exact same thing we do to boys.


ETA: As a matter of fact, there's a likely chance it happened to you.

FMG is totally not the same thing as male circumcision. A circumcised man can still enjoy sex, was most likely performed in a surgical proceedure and there are medical reasons in some cases for male circumsicion. FMG (Female Genital Mutilation) Is rarely performed with anaesthetics, often using items such as torn coke cans. It has no benifits at all and leaves the female subjected to a high risk of infection and in some cases urinary tract problems and years of pain. It also often makes sexual intercourse very painful. FMG is an abhorant practice that should be ended as soon as possible.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jshatzkin 0]

Quote

Uh...it's called circumcision and we do it to boys every single day.

It's the exact same thing we do to boys.


ETA: As a matter of fact, there's a likely chance it happened to you.

Just echoing everyone else here- It is NOT the same thing! Boys who have a circumcision can still enjoy sex throughout life! It's mostly done in boys nowadays to prevent nasty infections throughout life! (In fact, currently in the US, only about 65% of newborn males get a circumcision).Get some education on male circumcisions in the US and female clitoris cutting in 3rd world countries, before making such a blatantly ignorant statement!

Jen

[freeflybella 0]

This is a weird argument. There are so many facets to discuss.

You are right that a sterile surgical procedure is different from an unsterile, unskilled professional procedure.

You are right that there are many reasons for cutting into genitalia - whether it is male or female.

We are all right that there is no medical need for cutting into genitalia - and that all cutting of male and female genitalia is unnecessary.

But just because the practice of removing part of and infant male's penis has become commonplace and accepted as normal, does not make it any less of a mutilation.

Yes, the penis still works - but not the full way it was naturally intended to.

Only recently has anesthetic become commonplace for the procedure. So most circumcisions occurred on unanesthetized babies.

I didn't mean to downplay the excruciating torture that these girls undergo. I do recognize the difference in the method. These girls are mutilated so horribly due to the unskilled 'surgical' attempt. What would it look like if this culture had the means and the money - the procedure would be done at birth, in the hospital, paid for by insurance companies and grow to be considered acceptable.

You are also right that there is some f'd up thinking behind female circumcision - there is alot of f'd up thinking around (having sex with virgins cures aids, etc). I think you can chalk alot of it up to ignorance and lack of real information.

So what's our excuse for circumcising our babies? We cut them "so they'll get blow jobs" or "because it's easier to clean".

Hospitals, anesthetic injections into the penis of a newborn baby, sterile instruments, etc do make it less of a barbaric method. But does it make it less of a barbaric procedure?

Not in my opinion.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

Maybe you should research the history of reasons why babies are cirumcised before accusing me of not being informed.

Also, the idea that circumcision is done to 'prevent nasty infections throughout life' is ridiculous.

I drew a parallel that I probably shouldn't have. I really do recognize the difference in method and result between male and female circumcision. As I stated, I did not mean to downplay the horror.

I also didn't mean turn this thread into something other than what was intended. I'll ungracefully bow out so the discussion can return to the original subject. I have strong feelings about circumcision but shouldn't have used this thread to advance a different agenda. I get why it pissed people off.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Lindsey 0]

Only recently has anesthetic become commonplace for the procedure. So most circumcisions occurred on unanesthetized babies.

and still are. I've seen many male circumcisions performed without any anesthetic....only sugar-water on the baby's pacifier.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

We are all right that there is no medical need for cutting into genitalia - and that all cutting of male and female genitalia is unnecessary.

Your statement is inncorrect. Circumsion is indicated for several medical conditions:
phimosis
paraphimosis
recurrent balanitis
balanitis xerotica obliterans

Also there are research based evidence for the benifits of male circumsion.

lower risk of UTI during first year of life; American studies report that uncircumcised males are 11 times more likely to develop a UTI in their first year of life than their circumcised colleagues

evidence is not conclusive that circumcision protects an individual against penile carcinoma or reduces the risk of cervical carcinoma in partners independent of known risk factors. There is however an increased incidence of human papillomavirus in the uncircumcised male "but the number of sexual contacts may be a more important factor in risk of exposure to the virus".

human immunodeficiency virus seropositivity is higher in uncircumcised males in Africa and also the risk of male to female transmission is greater in uncircumcised seropositive males. These risks are likely to be far less significant than the increased risks of becoming seropositive related to increased numbers of sexual contacts, and non/improper use of condoms.

Scource: http://www.gpnotebook.com/simplepage.cfm?ID=1771700261&linkID=9619&cook=no

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Lindsey 0]

While there is a higher incidence of STDs and their sequelae among uncircumcised males, I don't know if performing a surgical procedure to remove their foreskin is really the best way to address that issue, especially when education about safe sexual practices can accomplish the same thing. The person, however, must PRACTICE safe sex. That's his choice, though.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[shropshire 0]

The best way would to be to stop 'dipping' it, without checking!!!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

Sure everyone who can use barrier contraception should but not everyone in the world has access to it. And still irrefutably there is indication on medical grounds for circumsion for certain conditions.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Lindsey 0]

Quote

And still irrefutably there is indication on medical grounds for circumsion for certain conditions.

Of course. That's very different, though, than routine infant circumcision. There are indications for all common medical procedures, but we don't perform most of them for no good reason....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Skyrad 0]

Heres a good reason....Who wants to look like the last turkey in the shop window come thanksgiving

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Lindsey 0]

Quote

Heres a good reason....Who wants to look like the last turkey in the shop window come thanksgiving

Exactly. That's the reason most people have their boys circumcised....because they like the way it looks.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Richards 0]

Quote

Uh...it's called circumcision and we do it to boys every single day.

It's the exact same thing we do to boys.


ETA: As a matter of fact, there's a likely chance it happened to you.

[Richards 0]

Quote

Exactly. That's the reason most people have their boys circumcised....because they like the way it looks.

Terrible reason to surgically alter a baby. I still say however, that you cannot compare male circumcision to the horrific trauma and injury of female genital mutilation.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Lindsey 0]

Quote

Quote

Exactly. That's the reason most people have their boys circumcised....because they like the way it looks.

Terrible reason to surgically alter a baby. I still say however, that you cannot compare male circumcision to the horrific trauma and injury of female genital mutilation.

Richards

i agree.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Richards 0]

Quote

I trained as a midwife at University for a year and during that time had many run ins with women from different Ethnic backgrounds who had been 'mutilated'.

They didn't know which part of themselves were which and to be honest none of the qualified midwives could tell either. It was like looking at the end result of a horror movie bloodbath.

This is done all over the world by unqualified people in sometimes squalid conditions and often with no pain relief whatsoever.

It is inhumane and to be frank, one of the most grusome, discusting practices carried out in certain cultures today.

The problem we have today is that multiculturalists will argue that he should be free to exercise his cultural/religious rights even though they are against the law here. Others have argued that we cannot hold guys like this fully accountable because apparently they do not know any better.

Considering that, should we not require that people who immigrate from countries like that sign a disclaimer, stating that they realise that it is illegal here and that they can be prosecuted for it before we let them in? Failing to do that allows them to claim ignorance and have bands of multiculturalists lining up to defend them.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[pug 0]

Quote

The problem we have today is that multiculturalists will argue that he should be free to exercise his cultural/religious rights even though they are against the law here. Others have argued that we cannot hold guys like this fully accountable because apparently they do not know any better.

Considering that, should we not require that people who immigrate from countries like that sign a disclaimer, stating that they realise that it is illegal here and that they can be prosecuted for it before we let them in? Failing to do that allows them to claim ignorance and have bands of multiculturalists lining up to defend them.

Richards

I think you view of "multiculturalists" may be a bit more narrow than it should be -- none of the ones I know condone such practices...

Just to set the record straight, FGM is illegal in most African countries. That is not to say that there are no die-hard traditionalists left in those countries that nevertheless continue with the practice, but there are now at legal instruments in place to prosecute them.

The countries that have passed such laws are (without any claim of completeness): Egypt, Tansania, Kenia, Sudan, Togo, Nigeria, Guinea, Burkina Faso, Mali, Central African Republic, Ivory Coast, and Djibouti. As can be seen from the attached map (from Wikipedia, FGM/C countries are labelled in red), that actually already covers a great deal.