The terrorists didn't win...

[Skyrad 0]

The Terrorists didn't win, the American people surrendered. Surrendered their freedom while they listened and believed everything the Presdent told them about the need to surrender their liberties in order to fight the war on terror. While the world called for UN to be supported in their efforts to search for WMD in Iraq America bayed for Arab blood because the government lied to them and told them that Iraq was involved in 9/11. Now thousands of Americans have died in Iraq. The land of the free is no more the United States left that behind of its own choice.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Darius11 12]

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The destruction of America.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5517942312906824233&pr=goog-sl



America is not just a piece of land with great Pizza and big cars. It is an Idea and a place of freedom.
By destroying Habeas Corpus (thx to GWB) we are changing what this country stood for. This law has been in effect since 1789, and is apart of what makes this country great. It guaranties that the president does not have absolute power. If the Supreme Court does not stop this act we will be no different then countries like North Korea, or Iran.
The president will be able to detain anyone indefinitely without charge this includes US citizens.
I simply don't understand how anyone could support GWB and consider himself or herself an American.
This will effect the freedom of speech, freedom of Press, and every freedom we hold dear.

This has to be the last straw.

That’s a copy of an E-mail I just wroth to everyone on my E-mail list.

We have a brain dead president who is supported by the brain dead and mislead.
He has single handedly changed what this country has stood for.
Not only did we kill thousands of inocent people and invade a country on lies; he has also damaged the country in a way no terrorist ever could.
He has disrespected all the troops that have ever died and fought for this country.

He is destroying America.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[sundevil777 102]

There was a cease fire agreement at the end of the '91 war.

SH didn't meet the terms. What should we have done about it? There were a lot of diplomatic efforts made to get him back in compliance, but he would not agree.

The parallels to what Germany did in breaking the terms of the Treaty of Versailles are noticed by some.

Remember that Clinton enacted the policy of regime change, and said that SH would surely use his arsenal (many other Dems in leadership positions said similar things).

Governments always make a lot of mistakes, especially involving wars. Did you expect this one to be different?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,009]

>SH didn't meet the terms. What should we have done about it.

Ignored the little pissant and spent our time improving security here in the US. Might have prevented 9/11.

[sundevil777 102]

So, you think we should have just stopped trying to enforce the cease fire agreement?

We were already at war with him. He would shoot at our planes, we would shoot back. Do you think we should have just given up on the agreement?

The activities of ignoring the pissant and improving security at home are mutually exclusive. I see no reason to believe that not bothering to enforce the cease fire would have resulted in better security at home.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,009]

>The activities of ignoring the pissant and improving security at
>home are mutually exclusive.

Saddam Hussein was never a threat to the US. Even Bush now admits that. So there's simply no link between the two, despite what the adminstration tried to imply during the run-up to war.

[sundevil777 102]

It wasn't just Bush's administration that said he was a threat. Clinton did also, and so did the Dem leadership in Congress, during Clinton's presidency.

Not a threat? He admitted that WMDs were not found, but how could we know that before the war? Even Hillary, Gore, Kerry, and Hans Blix thought he had them. Even Saddam thought he had them, because his Generals and scientists were lying to him.

Simply.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[lawrocket 3]

Time will tell if the terrorists won. Hopefully, we will be able to look back at this time in the same light as we looked upon the civi rights atrocities committed during FDR's reign and WWI.
Perhaps we will view them in the same light as the horrible sedition laws that Woodrow Wilson proposed and got passed during and after WWII.
Maybe we will view it the same as the terrible time when the House Un-American Activities Committee was running roughshod on due process in the 30's under FDR to uncover Nazi Propoganda and plots, or the late thirties to mid forties in probing communists among the interred Japanese (isn't that something? Probing communism among unfairly interred Japanese?); or with the Hollywood Blacklist in 1947 under Truman;

Or, what about Joe McCarthy's involvement? Hopefully, the Bush admin's actions can be viewed in this manner.

What I hope DOES NOT happen is that history paints the Administration's efforts in a positive light, as it did with Lincoln's suspension of habeus corpus.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,009]

>Not a threat? He admitted that WMDs were not found, but how could
>we know that before the war?

We could have listened to the experts - the IAEA inspection team.

>Even Hillary, Gore, Kerry, and Hans Blix thought he had them.

Nope. Hans Blix did NOT think he had them, and indeed thought that he could prove it if given a few more weeks to complete inspections. We didn't want to give him the time, because if no WMD's were found, no invasion would have been politically possible - and we desperately wanted that war.

Kerry, Murtha, Rumsfeld, Cheney - yep, lots of politicians thought he had them. Best listen to the experts over the politicians when it comes to a war that will kill thousands of americans.

>Even Saddam thought he had them . . .

So now people believe Saddam Hussein over the IAEA? No wonder we're up shit's creek in Iraq. Let's hope we get our heads out of our asses before we make the same mistakes with Iran.

[christelsabine 1]

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Saddam Hussein was never a threat to the US. Even Bush now admits that. So there's simply no link between the two, despite what the adminstration tried to imply during the run-up to war.

Your patience simply is impressing. How many times did you repeat that explanation? Do you think it will work one day?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Amazon 7]

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So, you think we should have just stopped trying to enforce the cease fire agreement?

Why the hell not.. we signed a Cease fire with North Korea in 1953... and its been broken hundreds of times.....and we have done??????????WHAT

BUPKISS

[jcd11235 0]

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We were already at war with him. He would shoot at our planes, we would shoot back.

You do realize that the No Fly zones were not authorized by the UN, right? I don't blame Iraq for shooting at the planes. We would have done exactly the same had the roles been reversed..

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[sundevil777 102]

Yes, I have heard it said that the no fly zones were not authorized by the UN. I don't think that matters. Do you think the no fly zones are justified? Have others (such as the large coalition of countries that helped us win that fight) besides SH complained that they thought it unjustified?

I think we should have attacked again when he attacked the Kurds with his helicopters. But the copters were allowed by the agreement. When SH gets his ass kicked as he did, it is just tough luck if you have to put up with a couple amendments to the agreement. That is the benefit of winning.

For Amazon: The Korean war cease fire was signed from a position of weakness by the UN forces. That is the difference, we didn't really win, and the Soviets/Chinese backed N. Korea

Good reason to have a really strong military so the roles aren't reversed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,009]

>I think we should have attacked again when he attacked the Kurds with his helicopters.

Our helicopters, actually. Bell 214ST choppers to be exact. Rumsfeld was key in expediting the sale. This was shortly after we learned he was using chemical weapons.

[jcd11235 0]

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Do you think the no fly zones are justified?

No. Before you say it: Clinton was wrong for enforcing them.

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Have others (such as the large coalition of countries that helped us win that fight) besides SH complained that they thought it unjustified?

I've heard no complaints, but that does not make it right.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[sundevil777 102]

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>I think we should have attacked again when he attacked the Kurds with his helicopters.

Our helicopters, actually. Bell 214ST choppers to be exact. Rumsfeld was key in expediting the sale. This was shortly after we learned he was using chemical weapons.

We did a lot of awful things in pursuit of being against Soviet ambitions. We also were allies with Stalin who had just finished starving millions to death before the war, and provided weapons to them.

The implication is that we should surrender the right to act against Saddam because of these actions. I reject that.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,009]

>The implication is that we should surrender the right to act
>against Saddam because of these actions.

Nope. We should just act against Saddam _intelligently._

And we should definitely get off our high horse when it comes to morality. Getting really pissed off when other countries supply Hezbollah is pretty hypocritical when we do the same whenever we think it's to our advantage.

[sundevil777 102]

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>The implication is that we should surrender the right to act
>against Saddam because of these actions.

Nope. We should just act against Saddam _intelligently._

And we should definitely get off our high horse when it comes to morality. Getting really pissed off when other countries supply Hezbollah is pretty hypocritical when we do the same whenever we think it's to our advantage.

When I said we should have attacked SH's helicopters attacking the Kurds, your only response was to say that they were actually our helicopters.

The clear implication to me is that we should no longer be able to take action against SH. But you say no, you just mean we should act intelligently. I say bullshit.

It would appear that you have a hard time distinguishing the good guys from the bad guys when comparing Hezbollah to the US. Oh well, you're certainly not the only one that has that problem. Should we be justified to only get slightly mad at them, but not attack them because of our previous policies, or would attacking them be OK as long as we're not really pissed off at them?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,009]

>The clear implication to me is that we should no longer be able to
>take action against SH. But you say no, you just mean we should act
>intelligently. I say bullshit.

Say whatever you want.

It is intelligent to NOT sell chemical weapon ingredients and helicopters to disperse them to a man who is known to use said chemical weapons. It is dumb to give terrorists billions of dollars of guns, ammunition and stinger missiles. It is intelligent to tell Saddam Hussein that we will not tolerate any military action in Kuwait. It is dumb to tell him that we won't get involved in Arab affairs if he does.

We've seen where dumb gets you - it gets you 9/11, a two-front war that we are steadily losing, and a world that is gradually turning against us. Time to try intelligence.

>It would appear that you have a hard time distinguishing the good
>guys from the bad guys when comparing Hezbollah to the US. Oh well,
>you're certainly not the only one that has that problem.

Yep. When the US kills your mother, tortures your father to death, then tells you that you should be grateful for being "liberated" - then you may not see them as the shining, immaculate heroes of truth and justice that some americans like to pretend they are. It is indeed a problem. One solution would be to actually live up to our claims. (Crazy, I know.)

>Should we be justified to only get slightly mad at them, but not attack
>them because of our previous policies, or would attacking them be OK as
>long as we're not really pissed off at them?

How about this - stop attacking people who are no threat to us. I know, it's not as much fun, but how about we use the US military to, you know, defend the US from attack instead of trying to use it to build our empire?

[billvon 3,009]

>the American people surrendered. Surrendered their freedom while
>they listened and believed everything the Presdent told them about the
>need to surrender their liberties in order to fight the war on terror.

A few apropos quotes:

Madison:
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.

John Adams:
But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.

Ed Murrow:
We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home.

Thomas Paine:
He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Carlos Fuentes:
A country that demands unanimity and calls it patriotism is a country that has lost its bearings.

Abraham Lincoln:
I fear you do not fully comprehend the danger of abridging the liberties of the people. Nothing but the very sternest necessity can ever justify it. A government had better go to the very extreme of toleration, than to do aught that could be construed into an interference with, or to jeopardize in any degree, the common rights of its citizens.

Theodore Roosevelt:
The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.

[bertusgeert 1]

Quote

Quote

The destruction of America.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5517942312906824233&pr=goog-sl



America is not just a piece of land with great Pizza and big cars. It is an Idea and a place of freedom.
By destroying Habeas Corpus (thx to GWB) we are changing what this country stood for. This law has been in effect since 1789, and is apart of what makes this country great. It guaranties that the president does not have absolute power. If the Supreme Court does not stop this act we will be no different then countries like North Korea, or Iran.
The president will be able to detain anyone indefinitely without charge this includes US citizens.
I simply don't understand how anyone could support GWB and consider himself or herself an American.
This will effect the freedom of speech, freedom of Press, and every freedom we hold dear.

This has to be the last straw.

That’s a copy of an E-mail I just wroth to everyone on my E-mail list.

We have a brain dead president who is supported by the brain dead and mislead.
He has single handedly changed what this country has stood for.
Not only did we kill thousands of inocent people and invade a country on lies; he has also damaged the country in a way no terrorist ever could.
He has disrespected all the troops that have ever died and fought for this country.

He is destroying America.

BRAIN DEAD? Not at ALL...Although he may not be the most intelligent President we have ever seen, he certainly isn't stupid. Although the Pres. is one person, it would be the minority of cases where he completely oposes his advisors.

It is my understanding that there are political powers fueled by political theories/theorists who have far greater ideas in their heads than 99.99% of the U.S. - including you and I - can practically understand, much less see from day to day.

Bush and his people behind the scenes are simply opening the road for themselves for now and the future, preparing the way for those to come. I doubt that Bush could solely derive that much benefit from this action that he would be in favor of it for that reason alone.

Anyways, although I would like to express all the bullcrap I believe, i gotta study some damn cobb-douglas microeconomics now...

THANKS FOR THE LINK

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